Allow rogues to take ANY feat in place of their "Rogue Bonus Feat"

[Quarterling]

Just what the title says, Turbine should allow rogues to be able to pick any feat that they meet the prerequisites for in addition to just the special ones available to rogues.

Why, you might ask?

1. Rogues need some love after all this butt-hurt going around.
2. Rogues are enough feat-starved as is.
3. It is more in line with the original pen-and-paper 3.5 rules.

Feat: A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

EDIT: Also, if you have any problems with points #1 or #2, please take a look at this post.

[Gkar]

Originally rogues in DDO couldn't even pick which rogue specialty feat they wanted, it was assigned by level. When they fixed that they said that allowing rogues to take any place was coming soon! I believe that was back around when GH was endgame

[DeadRabbat]

PnP D&D (3.5) has the Specials for tenth lvl+. You get a Special.. not any feat. Yes, the very last of the Specials says Feat.. being able to choose any feat. But that in DDO would be a disservice to the Rogue Class & in a way unbalance the class. The Specials are only for rogues & no other class...having them is helpful, like Opportunist or Improved Evasion. Giving them the ability to take any feat.. for build specifics or multi-classing is not what DDO Rogues are supposed to be.

Yes many rogues are dps & could benifit from dps related feats... but really... so many rogue players & none are complaining about the specials & yet they can still out dps most classes.

[Missing_Minds]

1. Rogues need some love after all this butt-hurt going around.

Grow more mature please. This is not a fault of Turbine for implementing a class that is straight from the world setting we are playing in.

2. Rogues are enough feat-starved as is.

So what are you going to give paladins, barbarians, sorcs, bards... oh you know, most all of the classes in the game.

3. It is more in line with the original pen-and-paper 3.5 rules.

You are better off quoting the line that is actually held within non epic to support your case. It is not more in line, it is in line.

/not signed for reasons #1 and #2.

/signed for reason #3.

[SableShadow]

Bottom of the list in the link provided: "Feat: A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability. "

If people are nervous about "any feat", even "rogue related" feats would be an improvement ... or if some fixes were made to existing special abilities.

[Missing_Minds]

Incorrect.

I stand corrected. I'm more used to srd20 format than this dandy wiki link people are using.

Editing the above.

[SableShadow]

I stand corrected. I'm more used to srd20 format than this dandy wiki link people are using.

Editing the above.

No worries, man. We both remember when you needed a PhD in 3.5 just to play DDO ... lotta rules to load into the brain.

[Quarterling]

So what are you going to give paladins, barbarians, sorcs, bards... oh you know, most all of the classes in the game.

I am talking about the fact that pretty much every single end-game rogue is near the same feat-wise.

TWF/ITWF/GTWF
Toughness
Power Attack
Improved Critical (piercing or slashing)
Exotic Weapon Khopesh; otherwise this is the only feat slot left for rapier-users

For levels above 20, yes. For levels 20 and under you have, and this is from the same link...

"Special Abilities: On attaining 10th level, and at every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options. "

Nevermind, SableShadow already corrected you.

[rimble]

Yep, long overdue. If they see room for overpowerful builds to form, limit those choices. Otherwise, open those muthas up.

[dingal]

First of all, not signed simply because I do not think this is a solution to the core problem which is that rogues rely so heavily on sneak attack and are impacted by far more than other classes (except customs that also rely on rogue levels and SA) by increases in fortification.

The core problem is further exacerbated by the fact that options that reduce mob fortification don't seem to also add back in SA damage when fortification is bypassed. So far I have only tested opportunist, I will need to test the FVS curse and Improved Sunder in order to be 100% certain how those impact SA damage.

The solution is not to give me an option to replace what in reality should be one of the most useful feats for me come U11. The solution is to a increase the impact of that feat and/or allow me to take it multiple times.

Right now the feat essentially allows you a crit on 2 of 100 strikes against a 100% fort mob which is a pretty pathetic crit profile but wouldn't be too bad for a barb that crits for 900 damage but for a rogue that crits for 100 the damage the difference is paltry.

The feat needs to allow for a higher percent chance to pass fortification and/or get an associated enhancement line that allows a rogue to dip deeper into the line to increase it and it also needs to stack with other fortification reduction such as Improved Sunder and FVS Curse.

Lastly fortification reduction needs to allow for sneak attack damage to be added back in.

Grow more mature please. This is not a fault of Turbine for implementing a class that is straight from the world setting we are playing in.

What do you even mean? He's complaining about rogues reliance on SA damage- which is by far the bulk of their damage - not being calculated on a fort bypass using the opportunist feat which renders the feat nearly useless. This doesn't have anything to do with Artificers assuming that's what you meant.


So what are you going to give paladins, barbarians, sorcs, bards... oh you know, most all of the classes in the game.

Rogues not only lose the crit chance that everyone else loses, they also lose 100% of their sneak attack damage on failed fort pass. That is not equal ground.

Are barbarians having 100% of glancing blows removed on any swing they don't bypass fortification? No, didn't think so. Not relevant.

Sorcs still get dots and are by far the highest single target DPS in game and have the SP pool to maintain it for quite awhile.

etc etc

/not signed for reasons #1 and #2.

/signed for reason #3.

[Quarterling]

PnP D&D (3.5) has the Specials for tenth lvl+. You get a Special.. not any feat. Yes, the very last of the Specials says Feat.. being able to choose any feat. But that in DDO would be a disservice to the Rogue Class & in a way unbalance the class. The Specials are only for rogues & no other class...having them is helpful, like Opportunist or Improved Evasion. Giving them the ability to take any feat.. for build specifics or multi-classing is not what DDO Rogues are supposed to be.

Yes many rogues are dps & could benifit from dps related feats... but really... so many rogue players & none are complaining about the specials & yet they can still out dps most classes.

You should probably understand that DDO is a very inflated version of 3.5 (hit point-wise, damage-wise, gear-wise, money/economy-wise, etc).

If being able to pick any feat in replacement of a special rogue feat would put them at an advantage ("But that in DDO would be a disservice"), wouldn't this suggestion be considered a nerf? If so, I will gladly accept this nerf.

Also, just because a rogue has the option to take any feat does not mean they will automatically pass up Improved Evasion. No rogue worth their salt would pass that feat up. Conclusion, if a rogue doesn't take that feat sometime in their career, they will eventually learn from repeated dying and groans from other party members. Hopefully, pressure will amount here and they will think about getting a feat exchange. If they don't, that's fine as well because it their account, their character, and their build.

I'm wondering what you mean by "dps-related feats"? The only one I can think of is Slicing Blow. 1d4 damage every two seconds? With the weighted dice, that is about 18 damage over 12 seconds. Honestly, even if the option is opened up, I still would not get that feat.

[SableShadow]

because I do not think this is a solution to the core problem which is that rogues rely so heavily on sneak attack and are impacted by far more than other classes (except customs that also rely on rogue levels and SA) by increases in fortification.

I tend to agree, though I would toss in
a) that increased boss damage is also a factor and
b) we're not sure that existing fort has been upgraded, though the release notes say they've added fort to bosses that didn't have it before

It would be nifty to have this (the "any feat" option; we've asked for it long enough), but fundamentally boosts to things like...
- cripping strike (add a dr debuff?),
- slippery mind (extend to all will saves?),
- defensive roll (let it kick in waaaay earlier than current), and
- opportunist (make it a 10% fort debuff that also allows for SA)

...would go a long way ... maybe too far it all recommendations were taken at the same time, maybe not.

It does seem silly, though, that fully geared and leveled, I'm taking extra Skill Mastery's that I don't need instead of what in previous years were "must haves".

/shrug

We'll see how it all plays out on live.

Honestly, even if the option is opened up, I still would not get that feat.

I was thinking Hamstring (waaaay tired of being asked if I have Hamstring on a pure rogue, then hearing the 12/8 Kensai has it ) or additional Toughness.

[Missing_Minds]

What do you even mean?

That the "butt hurt" feelings of getting replaced is player caused, not Turbine caused save for the issue below.

Rogues not only lose the crit chance that everyone else loses, they also lose 100% of their sneak attack damage on failed fort pass. That is not equal ground.

Which, if you have read my other responses to this exact issue I have said is wrong. If you can bypass the fortification, you should be able to sneak attack.

[dingal]

That the "butt hurt" feelings of getting replaced is player caused, not Turbine caused save for the issue below.


Which, if you have read my other responses to this exact issue I have said is wrong. If you can bypass the fortification, you should be able to sneak attack.

Right, I just don't think the first is what he was talking about and in the 2nd part you asked what the other classes get and the answer is nothing because they don't have an equal amount being taken away.

[Missing_Minds]

I am talking about the fact that pretty much every single end-game rogue is near the same feat-wise.

Cry me a river. I could say the same thing about barbs, about sorcs, etc.
These are the choices the player makes. Granted what else do you expect in a primarily combat based game with very little skill usage to make a difference in quests. Some things are just obviously very optimal.

Nevermind, SableShadow already corrected you.

Yeap, hence why I edited that first response. I was wrong.

[dingal]

Cry me a river. I could say the same thing about barbs, about sorcs, etc.
These are the choices the player makes. Granted what else do you expect in a primarily combat based game with very little skill usage to make a difference in quests. Some things are just obviously very optimal.


Yeap, hence why I edited that first response. I was wrong.

ok I stand corrected, he just wants to use whatever feat he wants which I don't agree with in principle anyway.

[Missing_Minds]

Right, I just don't think the first is what he was talking about and in the 2nd part you asked what the other classes get and the answer is nothing because they don't have an equal amount being taken away.

Then the cry should be to fix sneak attack bypassing fortification. However, I also don't have an issue with the OP asking for the "bonus feat" as per PnP either.

Sorcs still get dots and are by far the highest single target DPS in game

Arcanes SHOULD be the highest DPS, and melees shouldn't be these machines that can run on full tilt without getting tired. (WF excluded.)

However, we also have one heck of a nerfed spell resistance. Arcanes really should be dealing with situations like this.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html

[Adrian99]

Just to clarify, the suggestion is that Rogues should have unrestricted bonus feats similar to what the Human race gets, but Wizards, Monks, and Fighters should continue to have restricted bonus feats? If your suggestion was implemented, do you think it's possible that many people would consider that a relative nerf to Wizards, Monks, and Fighters? And if so, would those people have a good point?

[dingal]

Then the cry should be to fix sneak attack bypassing fortification. However, I also don't have an issue with the OP asking for the "bonus feat" as per PnP either.


Arcanes SHOULD be the highest DPS, and melees shouldn't be these machines that can run on full tilt without getting tired. (WF excluded.)

However, we also have one heck of a nerfed spell resistance. Arcanes really should be dealing with situations like this.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html

I agree Arcanes should have the highest DPS for a limited period of time. With extended boss fights they will now be pressed a little and that's good.

[suszterpatt]

There seem to be 3 separate arguments going on at the same time in this thread. Let's try to isolate them, shall we?


1) Rogues need more ways to bypass Fort than other classes, because the class feature that gives their main source of DPS is negated by it.

2) After Imp Evasion, Opportunist, and Crippling Strike, the usefulness of special abilities drops sharply. Level 19/20 rogues are stranded with a subpar ability. The other abilities should be buffed.

3) PnP rules allow rogues to trade a special ability for a feat, DDO should too.


I don't think anyone really disagrees with #1.

As for #2 and #3, I'd actually rather see #2. However, #3 would probably be easier to implement. But give us at least one of them.