Tower of Pain

[Isolani]

Cool idea, only question I have is why Elite Cholthuzz? Any WF caster can solo him. He seems a lot easier than the other mobs on the list.

[The_Brave2]

Cool idea, only question I have is why Elite Cholthuzz? Any WF caster can solo him. He seems a lot easier than the other mobs on the list.

Good point, Wanted to include him in the tower, but since epic wasnt available and I liked my levels I didnt really have a spot for him.

My Fix:

1: Cholthuzz (you fall down into the basement levels.)
2: hard Arritrikos
3: hard sulu
4: goggle puzzle

[blade_of_will]

For the final floor, how about a choice of different raid bosses (sins of attrition style) with varying flavors of doom (Laliat could have spinning blade traps, disjunction traps, respawning red-named casters and hezrous - horoth could have several pit fiend lieutenants and the shadowmaster with shadows - abbot could just be himself, albeit slightly tougher to account for the 'epic' difficulty - ofc the bosses would have higher hp, damage, sr, fort, more deadly spells, minibosses (and by mini I mean suulo to horoth, a few deeps hezrous for laliat, kind of mini), and so on) and the rewards for the end chest being ether 100% chance to get raid loot or +3/4 tome or a straight epic raid item if the the raid has an epic difficulty. You could also have items to cover some of the stuff we would like to have (better/epic 1-handers, epic 2hander axe for example) and have them drop in lower floors/all end chests. This would assume that this is an epic (epic only?) dungeon/raid though.

[der_kluge]

20 seconds is probably extreme for killing all 3 of those dragons... but I digress...

I like it - but I can't see it ever happening because the concept is a bit "gamey". By that, I mean, how do you story-justify such a place? I can't see the devs allowing it to exist - and it wouldn't exist outside of a purely game point of view. There's no compelling story reason for it to be there.

[The_Brave2]

20 seconds is probably extreme for killing all 3 of those dragons... but I digress...

I like it - but I can't see it ever happening because the concept is a bit "gamey". By that, I mean, how do you story-justify such a place? I can't see the devs allowing it to exist - and it wouldn't exist outside of a purely game point of view. There's no compelling story reason for it to be there.

the story line part of it I dont see as a difficulty, re-occouring bosses simply didnt die at one time and went to get stronger by the time you got to the top of it, the tower itself can be explained as their real HQ.

The killing time is geared towards they all have to die withinn that time frame, so you get them down to low health then kill them, requires a little timing but defiantly do-able.

For the final floor, how about a choice of different raid bosses (sins of attrition style)

Something like this would be interesting, but just like sins a clear easiest boss would be the only one used, so im not sure if I want to add that, not to mention that I love the idea of having to 6 man LoTB!!

and the rewards for the end chest being ether 100% chance to get raid loot or +3/4 tome or a straight epic raid item if the the raid has an epic difficulty. You could also have items to cover some of the stuff we would like to have (better/epic 1-handers, epic 2hander axe for example) and have them drop in lower floors/all end chests. This would assume that this is an epic (epic only?) dungeon/raid though.

I currently have a 1% chance chest of a +3 tome on floor 11, I dont think any higher % tome chance should be added tbh.. 6% chance of a +3 is already quite high for an entire party.. Possibly increase that chest to 2% and 1% +4. i'll put that in the OP as a question.

100% chance to get loot would ruin the having to master the tower multiple times aspect (which is how most of DDO is currently)that I currently have for the loot tables, and would detract from running the normal raids for specific non-essential loot. I dont want this to be any short of a shortcut for bypassing gear ranks, as that would ruin some quests currently in-game. I want the tower to be complete-able, but not something that you would be able to do every time successfully. I have specs for the 2H axe currently with stats up comparative to the eSoS, but i would like to see a more inclusive DPS test done for it, (dwarven axe damage, higher damage mods)

[RecklessDawn]

Cool idea. Sounds like it would not at all be completed until some form of strategy was developed for specific levels, especially with only a 6 man group. I'm just thinking out loud but I personally would like to see a two handed weapon at least marginally better than the Epic Sword of Shadows seeing how considerably more difficult this would be than epic dragon with proper strategy.

I do not think, however, that you should be able to acquire it from a specific number of runs. I would suggest that you offer a Tome trade-in perhaps using that mechanic (with something like 10 tokens for a +3 tome of your choice and 20 for a +4 or something). The weapon itself, and other incredibly powerful weapons/equipment, could be implemented in an optional chest that you would have a short decision to choose to go for (and continue WITHOUT the use of a shrine immediately into the optional).

And to add even more significance to the difficulty of acquiring those items, make it such that if you do choose to do the optional at the end that can drop them you risk losing all you have acquired that run (tokens).

Thus, the players can choose to leave with the tokens they have and have the ability to trade them in, or, if they believe they have enough resources left, continue into an even more challenging fight.

[RecklessDawn]

My other thoughts were on a storyline for such a sequence of fights. It could be something that requires the completion of all raids and epic quests that contain those monsters named and go off a tangent of the dreaming dark/IQ chain. In this it would be a dream state and, similar to the Finding the Path IQ quest, the deepest horrors of your past are awakened to fight you together.

This time, however, it would not be as easy as a fight against a Marut, a Rust monster, and a giant skeleton. It would be the coming together of every challenging boss you have encountered in your quest across Eberron.

[The_Brave2]

marginally better than the Epic Sword of Shadows

There would be something that is a small increase to the eSoS, I don't want something that is much better than it because it already out DPS's all other 2h weapons, so there is unbalance there, and an even more powerfull version will only make that unbalance worse.

The new 2h sword would be something like +11 instead of +10, increasing the base damage would be a much larger increase than this, but im open to suggestions on how to make that weapon, as currently I have only thought though the Axe.

I do not think, however, that you should be able to acquire it from a specific number of runs. The weapon itself, and other incredibly powerful weapons/equipment, could be implemented in an optional chest

Its currently about how many complete runs you manage to do though the tower, incomplete runs only net you lesser marks that could be used for lesser items.

I dont like the idea of an optional chest with the new gear inside it, I think the DDO already as too much of this depending on luck, id like this tower to be more about skill and the gear you toon already has aquired, so a static reward would be better IMO.

I would suggest that you offer a Tome trade-in perhaps using that mechanic (with something like 10 tokens for a +3 tome of your choice and 20 for a +4 or something).

Opinion noted, I agree here, about 7 runs for +3. Unsure If adding +4 would be a good idea..

And to add even more significance to the difficulty of acquiring those items, make it such that if you do choose to do the optional at the end that can drop them you risk losing all you have acquired that run (tokens).

I think you misunderstand the Token system, they are only used as a break point for your party to stop for awhile and resume some other day if one party member needs to bail, they are one use only.

If you are refering to marks when you say tokens, that seems very risky indeed. But again, Im not sure I want the weapons to be in a chest, I dont know about you, but Im sick and tired of opening a chest and getting nothing, something that I can really work towards would be a improvement in the game imo.

Thus, the players can choose to leave with the tokens they have and have the ability to trade them in, or, if they believe they have enough resources left, continue into an even more challenging fight.

The optional room wouldnt be optonal at all, because everyone would want a chance at those weapons. not to mention the party could disagree on what they want to do, using what resources to use, exc. it would become just a mana pot game for that last room, chugging your SP pool up to full after the LoTB fight... I cant see you coming out of that on epic with a 6 man team with any SP left.

[The_Brave2]

My other thoughts were on a storyline for such a sequence of fights. It could be something that requires the completion of all raids and epic quests that contain those monsters named and go off a tangent of the dreaming dark/IQ chain. In this it would be a dream state and, similar to the Finding the Path IQ quest, the deepest horrors of your past are awakened to fight you together.

This time, however, it would not be as easy as a fight against a Marut, a Rust monster, and a giant skeleton. It would be the coming together of every challenging boss you have encountered in your quest across Eberron.

Excellent idea, but It doesnt tie into the tower aspect, and the token system would have to be revisited... unless your dream allows going in and out of the so called 'deepest horrors of your past'.

Possibly some way of waking up temporarily.. and the token could be to 'succumb to the dream' and go back to the tower.

I like the flagging idea, Definitely adding that to the OP.

[RecklessDawn]

Couple more comments.

1) I hate the current system with +4 tomes in that they are only really achievable through sheer dumb luck (1% chance anyone?) through raids that are not really significantly challenging anymore. DQ2 and E6 epic have not been for quite some time, and the chance of a +4 on elite is not justifiably harder than it is on normal in my opinion. These tomes for some characters are the only current way of progressing their toon further other than a ridiculously monotonous amount of past lives.

2) No. I completely disagree with your comment that you think this weapon should not be better than the eSoS. Currently, (And even moreso with the new crafting implemented with U11 and new raids) TwF is higher single target DPS than ThF if built right. Obviously the benefits of movement while attacking and glancing blows/cleave/supreme cleave if in a large amount of mobs is justifiable just not really elsewhere. This weapon should at least situationally be better than the eSoS (Such as including an effect that would be extremely helpful on trash such as Stunning +10 and making it slightly weaker) or add in some kind of crazy new effect like +10% stacking glancing blow damage or something racially beneficial to dwarves if it is a greataxe, etc.

[RecklessDawn]

Also, you're going to hate me for saying this, but for the kind of system you seem to be looking for (a certain number of completions yields you an item basically guaranteed as the challenge is difficult enough to justify it) a crafting system might make sense in which you can either use lesser marks to upgrade a base item (looted from optional perhaps) or lesser marks can be combined together to create greater marks, thus making stopping before the optional fight justifiable if it is so obscenely difficult that no one team has a clear shot at victory no matter how much experience.

[The_Brave2]

Couple more comments.
2) No. I completely disagree with your comment that you think this weapon should not be better than the eSoS.

Quote me? I believe that I have only stated that it should be marginally better than the eSoS, better but not game breaking better.

Currently, (And even moreso with the new crafting implemented with U11 and new raids) TwF is higher single target DPS than ThF if built right.

So, add in a 1h weapon example? would like some ideas, but i'll work on it.

new effect like +10% stacking glancing blow damage or something racially beneficial to dwarves if it is a greataxe, etc.

Interesting, unsure If something specificly keyed towards a dwarf on a weapon is what I want to do, the axe should stack up well against the eSoS, making it a preference thing rather than the 'OMG eSoS pl0x!'.

I like the idea of something akin to +10% glancing blow damage. Something like that along with some sort of vampirism effect would greatly increase its use for players with the THF feats. Vamp effects can proc on glancing blows... correct?

[RecklessDawn]

The optional room wouldnt be optonal at all, because everyone would want a chance at those weapons. not to mention the party could disagree on what they want to do, using what resources to use, exc. it would become just a mana pot game for that last room, chugging your SP pool up to full after the LoTB fight... I cant see you coming out of that on epic with a 6 man team with any SP left.[/QUOTE]

If you truly wanted this to be difficult you could simply add in some effect in the tower that prevents ANY SP potion usage (or somehow detracted from your reward?).

[The_Brave2]

Also, you're going to hate me for saying this, but for the kind of system you seem to be looking for (a certain number of completions yields you an item basically guaranteed as the challenge is difficult enough to justify it) a crafting system might make sense in which you can either use lesser marks to upgrade a base item (looted from optional perhaps) or lesser marks can be combined together to create greater marks, thus making stopping before the optional fight justifiable if it is so obscenely difficult that no one team has a clear shot at victory no matter how much experience.

Oh, I always hate you

Oh god, not more crafting. @__________@

The reason I dont want the tiered effects on the weapons is that naturally the lower tiers would have to be less effective on something like the axe of the tower, making it worse than the eSoS at that stage, so I think that the complete axe for a specified amount of marks is still the way to go.

Combining marks is something I have thought about, but when I made the prices for the items the way it is coded is so that the ratio of marks stays relativity equal, so no mark is really valued more than another, although I do agree for teams failing the tower a couple times it would make sense to upgrade some of the greater marks to higher ones. Although the ratio of turnins would have to be against your favor..since its currently 2supreme for every 2.5 greater the turn in rate from greater:supreme would have to be around 5:1 and the normal:greater is 2.5:3.5 so the ratio for turnins would have to be about 3:1.

I just cant see how an optional chest would work at all... no matter how hard it is there would be groups confident in completing it, using pots to do so. and disabling pots in the tower is something I do not want to do. So really any optional chest becomes just a part of the run.

Even if what you say works, that it is so difficult it would be insane to try it, would you still have the weapons in that optional chest? or is the mark system still in place? Id like to see some sort of puzzle bonus level, that seems like the best way of attacking the issue of pots for the extra 'fight'. but I cant think of anything ingame that would work well enough for it to be worth that chest... 6-man a huge game of asteroids? twice as long goggles puzzle? im still trying to stay away from using things that are not currently ingame.

[RecklessDawn]

Even if what you say works, that it is so difficult it would be insane to try it, would you still have the weapons in that optional chest? or is the mark system still in place? Id like to see some sort of puzzle bonus level, that seems like the best way of attacking the issue of pots for the extra 'fight'. but I cant think of anything ingame that would work well enough for it to be worth that chest... 6-man a huge game of asteroids? twice as long goggles puzzle? im still trying to stay away from using things that are not currently ingame. [/color][/QUOTE]

BOTH. Yeah, that's right. Flinging asteroids (perhaps even only having piles of them on blue tiles so you have to be quick) WHILE navigating across goggles. Unsure how this could possibly be implemented and whether or not both sides would have to constantly keep asteroids at bay (or they destroy tiles making it ever more challenging?) but it would truly be epic and not be controllable as to always complete if made right.

[The_Brave2]

BOTH. Yeah, that's right. Flinging asteroids (perhaps even only having piles of them on blue tiles so you have to be quick) WHILE navigating across goggles. Unsure how this could possibly be implemented and whether or not both sides would have to constantly keep asteroids at bay (or they destroy tiles making it ever more challenging?) but it would truly be epic and not be controllable as to always complete if made right.

have half the people as designated rock throwers standing on top of the normal 2 deck goggle platform, defending against rocks that would destroy tiles. tiles will re spawn after 25 seconds. you have 1 person guiding 2 other people across the twice as long goggle puzzle.

The jobs of each of these people will be random, adding additional challenge, as every one in your group would have to be able to do each of the jobs well.

I like it... sounds like a real challenge.

[RecklessDawn]

have half the people as designated rock throwers standing on top of the normal 2 deck goggle platform, defending against rocks that would destroy tiles. tiles will re spawn after 25 seconds. you have 1 person guiding 2 other people across the twice as long goggle puzzle.

The jobs of each of these people will be random, adding additional challenge, as every one in your group would have to be able to do each of the jobs well.

I like it... sounds like a real challenge.

Not sure if this is exactly what I was envisioning. I was thinking if you wanted it super challenging the asteroids could be coming down fast enough that you CANNOT get across without your asteroid throwers very coordinated with each other and protecting the route the gogglers are crossing as they step across. Otherwise, boom, tiles gone.

Or you could even have to rely on one another, 3 different sets 2 from your team of 6 must work their way across. Each individual must work their way across while also handling the asteroids coming down from above, would be absolute and total chaos and (hopefully) provide an insanely difficult and rewarding challenge.

[The_Brave2]

Not sure if this is exactly what I was envisioning. I was thinking if you wanted it super challenging the asteroids could be coming down fast enough that you CANNOT get across without your asteroid throwers very coordinated with each other and protecting the route the gogglers are crossing as they step across. Otherwise, boom, tiles gone.

Or you could even have to rely on one another, 3 different sets 2 from your team of 6 must work their way across. Each individual must work their way across while also handling the asteroids coming down from above, would be absolute and total chaos and (hopefully) provide an insanely difficult and rewarding challenge.

I dont like the idea of having to run across tiles while at the same time throwing asteroids, mainly because going across tiles requires you to be very well coordinated with your guide, while at the same time looking at them for direction, falling rocks would make you have to look around, so I dont think that would be a good idea.

I still think that randomly assigned throwers, crosser's, and a guide would be the best route for this. And it will still require expert coordination from the 2 assigned throwers to protect the tiles. And the double long route would no doubt increase this in difficulty even more, larger area that they have to protect.

Thrower: Protects from a high point using asteroids, limited number... TBA
Guide: Guides the 2 runners across the tiles
Runner: gets across the puzzle

Tiles:
Blue: Asteroids do not affect these tiles, but a roid hitting a player on this tile will do 200 damage
Fading: Destroyed if a asteroid hits it. re spawns in 25 seconds

Jobs are randomly assigned.

Only problem I can think of is that the trajectory of the Asteroids, how would you be able to tell which asteroids are going to hit which row/tile exc. Possibly have the Asteroids come slower, but perpendicular to the tiles, so that they destroy an entire row if they hit.

[The_Brave2]

bonus level added, in addition to some trimming of the post. Still working on the stats for additional items.

[The_Brave2]

Added more weapons to the item list, epic 1h Dwarven axe anyone?

Also changed 2h Axe to have redslot instead of silver, Should be able to break DR with correct crystal just like eSoS.