Artificer: Meh..

[Aashrym]

It also wouldn't hurt this case if the Developers were a little less vague. "This spell will deal half damage on a successful save, but we won't tell you what the Difficulty Check is! Muahahaha, I am <Insert Neutral Evil Developer Name Here>!"

I understand most of the Developers like to talk in riddles, as they seem to get a kick out of it, but there is a line that shouldn't be crossed.

The DC is 10 + casting stat bonus + spell level + feats and/or equipment + etc. That's not a riddle. The saves work the same way. Neither is static since both are dependent on variables among players and enemies and we just compare the too then toss in some luck.

Are you saying you want the different DC's posted for every spell and/or ability each enemy on the screen has? Or just a database of mobs with the DC's posted?

[TreknaQudane]

Erm, You're complaining about having a 33 spell dc on blade barrier and having as many sp as a cleric.

Yeah ok, sure.

And rune arms can be equipped with a xbow or 1 handed melee weapon.

They definitely have less SP than a Cleric/Wizard... more than a Bard however.

[Gimpinator]

The DC is 10 + casting stat bonus + spell level + feats and/or equipment + etc. That's not a riddle. The saves work the same way. Neither is static since both are dependent on variables among players and enemies and we just compare the too then toss in some luck.

Are you saying you want the different DC's posted for every spell and/or ability each enemy on the screen has? Or just a database of mobs with the DC's posted?

Uhh, no.. The D/C to the Rune Arm's blasts. They have undefined saves for half damage. Here's an example:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Glorious_Obscenity

Fortitude save for half damage. If anything affects the blast, and isn't mentioned in the description, I feel comfortable calling it another Vague Developer Riddle; VDR for short. Hopefully the term will spread like wild fire!

[Aashrym]

Uhh, no.. The D/C to the Rune Arm's blasts. They have undefined saves for half damage. Here's an example:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Glorious_Obscenity

Fortitude save for half damage. If anything affects the blast, and isn't mentioned in the description, I feel comfortable calling it another Vague Developer Riddle; VDR for short. Hopefully the term will spread like wild fire!

I see. I did not notice in your post. D'oh. If I spot something I shall add it.

[Matuse]

33 dc evocation is pretty bad for endgame. might as well have 20 dc.

My FvS' BB DC is lower than this (30 wisdom), and it doesn't matter. Unless it has evasion, it gets tossed into a wood chipper when I cast.

If it does have evasion, a 38-40 wis would not make a difference, they'd still only fail their saves on a 1.

[Jackal912]

It needs to be pointed out a lot more clearly in-game that rune arms can be fired WITHOUT breaking an attack animation - anyone who complains that shooting a crossbow is better than shooting a runearm is missing the point - you never have to stop shooting your crossbow to charge or fire a runearm, the only penalty is a 25% movement slow while it's charging.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Erm, You're complaining about having a 33 spell dc on blade barrier and having as many sp as a cleric.

Yeah ok, sure.

And rune arms can be equipped with a xbow or 1 handed melee weapon.

A cleric with the same gear as an artificer will have 360 more SP.

33 DC doesn't mean much against moderate to high reflex mobs in epics who usually have evasion. The outcome is probably 50-95% immunity.

Though, though the game does end at level 20, right?

[maddmatt70]

I concur on the buffing. I figure 90% of the playerbase will be horrible at this class at the end game because they have a disdain for buffing. As a soloing class this is solid, but you can also be a good soloer on a wf caster, palemaster, FVS, etc. so shrug. Really since the dps is questionable and it really is about buffing this is going to sit like monks did for the first 6 months then it will be overpowered when the devs put out all the prestige enhancements for it. Now for those that buff this class is going to be very good, but for those that do not which are many and include some of the 'best players in game' lol.. Haha.

[budalic]

My FvS' BB DC is lower than this (30 wisdom), and it doesn't matter. Unless it has evasion, it gets tossed into a wood chipper when I cast.

If it does have evasion, a 38-40 wis would not make a difference, they'd still only fail their saves on a 1.

Each point of meaningful DC adds a bit to your blade barrier damage - they usually save for half damage. So your 40 wis fvs will destroy mobs about 25% faster than your 30 wis caster. The point raised by OP is that artificer with maxed out int can't get solid saves on BB, unlike various evoker FvS builds and stuff.

[budalic]

As a soloing class this is solid, but you can also be a good soloer on a wf caster, palemaster, FVS, etc. so shrug.

Disagree... all of those are better soloers. Artificer is probably gonna be best soloer till lvl 5 or so, at witch point good players will overtake it with 'collect and nuke' caster playstyle.

[Isolani]

Each point of meaningful DC adds a bit to your blade barrier damage - they usually save for half damage. So your 40 wis fvs will destroy mobs about 25% faster than your 30 wis caster. The point raised by OP is that artificer with maxed out int can't get solid saves on BB, unlike various evoker FvS builds and stuff.

Isn't really fair to compare a FvS or Cleric BB to Artificer, they get 9 spell levels so heighten gives them +3 DC on them compared to an Artificer. An artificer needs to have 3 sorceror past lives to get the same boost that heighten gives a cleric/FvS. My WF melee FvS had something like 23 DC BB and it killed stuff just fine as long as they didn't have evasion. If they had evasion just hit them with a weapon until they fall down. An artificer with 3 sorceror past lives and a lot of gear will still have a pretty good BB DC. It isn't even BB that I'm all that excited to play with, it's the artificer capstone since I have 3 wizard past lives.

[Yunico]

12 Artificer raid attempts might have given people the wrong impression of what the class is for.
It's not max dps, not by spells and not by repeater or rune arm.
The class is supremely tactical, and can greatly help migitate party damage taking. The buffs stack well with others, the pet&tower can draw a lot of aggro. On Fusilage, the repeater is nice burst damage, good for bosses&mini-bosses.
Any party can use an Art, but its health and lack of evasion etc. means its bad on solo, and can not properly kite through bbs etc.
If you play an Art, dont try to lead the killcount. Make best use of your pet&tower to distract the enemy. Finish off ranged& wounded with the repeater. Buff the group for the endfight.
And the party will be grateful for it.

[Dirichlet]

DC on Rune Arms should be 11 + charge level + Int bonus + others. Charge level 5 casts as if it were a level 6 spell etc.

The caster's spell damage amplification effects and enhancements modify the rune arm's damage. Metamagics do not affect any of the rune arm spells at this time. They use your Artificer level as their caster level and your Intelligence modifier - it's more or less as if you were casting a spell through the relic. The spells count as having a level equal to their charge tier plus one.

I've tested both the elemental lines and potency type effects, and they all affect the damage as you would expect (the crit lines work too, though I haven't tried a lore item). Combined that's a solid 225% damage easily obtainable.

[Coldin]

DC on Rune Arms should be 11 + charge level + Int bonus + others. Charge level 5 casts as if it were a level 6 spell etc.



I've tested both the elemental lines and potency type effects, and they all affect the damage as you would expect (the crit lines work too, though I haven't tried a lore item). Combined that's a solid 225% damage easily obtainable.

That certainly changes things. Though that does mean Artificers will have to be searching for that right rune arm that will be affected by their enhancements. The light damage rune arms won't be affected.

People also haven't mentioned that all rune arms have that craftable bonus on them. +5 enhancement to do whatever you want with. That could be pretty handy I think.

[Matuse]

Each point of meaningful DC adds a bit to your blade barrier damage - they usually save for half damage. So your 40 wis fvs will destroy mobs about 25% faster than your 30 wis caster.

Patent nonsense. All monsters who are not the following:
1) Evaders
2) Spellcasters/archers
3) Bosses

...die in one barrier. Doesn't matter what your barrier's DC is.

That list includes somewhere in the area of 80-90% of all monsters in the game. The only thing higher wisdom helps on are the evaders, and them not very often. Spellcasters and archers aren't good barrier targets because they don't like to move...higher wisdom (int, for artificers) will not cause them to move.

You said "meaningful" DC...it's only meaningful when it starts to go above their base reflex save. A DC 10 blade barrier is just as effective as a DC 50 blade barrier when the monster has a 55 reflex save. Most evaders have -crazy- reflex, and a small increase is highly unlikely to push your barriers into the realm where your targets are failing a save on a 2+.

[budalic]

Patent nonsense. All monsters who are not the following:
1) Evaders
2) Spellcasters/archers
3) Bosses

...die in one barrier. Doesn't matter what your barrier's DC is.

That list includes somewhere in the area of 80-90% of all monsters in the game. The only thing higher wisdom helps on are the evaders, and them not very often. Spellcasters and archers aren't good barrier targets because they don't like to move...higher wisdom (int, for artificers) will not cause them to move.

You said "meaningful" DC...it's only meaningful when it starts to go above their base reflex save. A DC 10 blade barrier is just as effective as a DC 50 blade barrier when the monster has a 55 reflex save. Most evaders have -crazy- reflex, and a small increase is highly unlikely to push your barriers into the realm where your targets are failing a save on a 2+.

You still don't get me... it isn't matter on one BB vs. two, but that more double damage (ie. failed save) passes through barrier kill monsters faster, thus speeding up quest. Sure, BB is effective one way or the other, but character with higher DCs will be a bit faster. So higher wisdom/int does help you.

Unless you are saying that all mobs die in one pass through BB, in which case I wonder what you are smoking.

Difference isn't specacular, but it's there. (And yes, building for BB DCs isn't really beneficial... but building for implosion gets you nice side-effect in this way.)

[mystafyi]

You said "meaningful" DC...it's only meaningful when it starts to go above their base reflex save. A DC 10 blade barrier is just as effective as a DC 50 blade barrier when the monster has a 55 reflex save. Most evaders have -crazy- reflex, and a small increase is highly unlikely to push your barriers into the realm where your targets are failing a save on a 2+.

I have found a 42 DC Blade barrier very effective even against evasion mobs. The difference between 39DC and 42DC is like night and day.

Everything else i agree with you If you cant hit 40dc... might as well go WF and dumpstat wis ....

[Solmage]

My take on Artificers:

- They are essentially ranged bards. If you expect them to be omgikillyouall, sorry, roll a sorcerer or fvs instead.

- If you DONT spend a chunk of your mana buffing your party (at the very least 1 weapon infusion per party member) then you're being about as useful as the bard who doesn't sing songs. Yes, you still will contribute your own DPS, and you could use your mana to toss some heals or whatever, but you're seriously missing the point.

- A lot of people will seriously miss the point and not do that weapon infusion thing

- Arties have very poor crowd control, at least until capstone. Anytime you are facing enemies you can't kill by the time they're in melee range with you, you are in trouble, or when facing an enemy spell caster that will crowd control YOU while also blasting you while you try to avoid his melee friends and you desperately try to get the **** pet to intimidate so you can try to finish off the pesky caster. After capstone you have moderate CC.

This class solos well. It does not solo nearly as well as a warforged wizard, sorcerer, or favoured soul, nor is it anywhere near as powerful. It IS more powerful than a bard however it does not have it's crowd control abilities. (which are seriously underused by a lot of people anyway)

I question whether people who "walked all over easily in korthos gear" were always doing quests 1 or 2 levels over them on elite (thus walking all over vale quests on elite at level 14, f.ex) or were instead running the game on normal at level or higher than quest level, which is something ANY class can do.

[Jackal912]

My take on Artificers:
- Arties have very poor crowd control, at least until capstone. Anytime you are facing enemies you can't kill by the time they're in melee range with you, you are in trouble, or when facing an enemy spell caster that will crowd control YOU while also blasting you while you try to avoid his melee friends and you desperately try to get the **** pet to intimidate so you can try to finish off the pesky caster. After capstone you have moderate CC.

To be fair, I've found Prismatic Strike to be surprisingly amazing single target CC + damage, and Tactical Detonation to be an excellent AOE CC with some minor damage. I've yet to actually see an enemy NOT be tripped or slowed or somesuch by prismatic strike - it has to make 3 saves to not be incapacitated in some way. The sad thing is they're a bit pricy at 35-40ish SP without metamagic to spam, especially on single targets.

[Dirichlet]

To be fair, I've found Prismatic Strike to be surprisingly amazing single target CC + damage, and Tactical Detonation to be an excellent AOE CC with some minor damage. I've yet to actually see an enemy NOT be tripped or slowed or somesuch by prismatic strike - it has to make 3 saves to not be incapacitated in some way. The sad thing is they're a bit pricy at 35-40ish SP without metamagic to spam, especially on single targets.

I haven't tried Prismatic Strike yet; I'll have to pick that up next time I level. I noticed Tactical Detonation has a funny description. The save is listed as "Reflex, Maximum: Strength or Dexterity", then later it says "a successful Reflex save reduces the fire damage by half and negates the knockdown effect". It might be that the knockdown is actually a Str/Dex check, because it seems to work more often than it should (i.e. it's regularly working against evasion mobs that usually save against other Reflex based spells). It seems reliable enough for an AoE CC. Shame about the price though :/