Artificer Trapmaking (Can't Use Grenades) - Bug or WAI ??

[Claver]

Artificers with the trap making feat can manufacture grenades at the trap making workstation but they can't use them. The grenades are class restricted to rogues.

This doesn't match my expectations of the "logic" of a fantasy world. I would have thought that the Artificer who is a master potion alchemist would certainly be a better chemist than your average pick pocket or kobold with greek fire.

Several of the artificer spells use "grenades" to hurl "cure" potions towards undead to damage them with positive energy. It is more in keeping with the image of that level of fantasy technology to allow the artificer to make heavy use of grenades.

If anything, the effectiveness/damage of the grenades should be enhanced when used/made by an artificer. I would like to see grenades improved overall so that they are more effective than repeating crossbows given the effort required for crafting; however, I would settle for even an enhancement line to artificers to improve their grenade damage similar to the way wand damage is increased.

[brian14]

Could be WAI. Just because an arificer can MAKE grenades does not mean he has manual dexterity to THROW them properly. Better hand them to that guy who likes to juggle daggers blinfolded

Are grenades bound in any way? If yes, then no way this is WAI.

[Claver]

If it is Working As Intended there should be an indicator on the trap crafting interface showing that the grenades are class restricted Rogue/minimum level 2. Right now there is nothing.

It is not unreasonable for someone who has the trapmaking feat and the ability to make grenades to expect that they will be able to use what they just made. I did. It takes a long, long, long time to gather enough trap parts to craft grenades or any other kind of trap. That is the fatal flaw of the system - the reward is not worth the effort. If I made my first trap with my stash part I had been acquiring for the last 4 levels of dedicated scrounging and discovered I couldn't use those traps (grenade) because I was not a rogue and this information was not provided I would be extremely upset as a new player.

Better information is needed on trap making crafting interface showing the minimum level or class restrictions of the end product.

[Aesop]

Time to change grenade and mine use to a minimum of Ranks of Disable Device.

Maybe 5 ranks for some basic levels and have it go up for more advanced ones.

Aesop

[Claver]

Time to change grenade and mine use to a minimum of Ranks of Disable Device.Maybe 5 ranks for some basic levels and have it go up for more advanced ones.

I'm in favor of anything that will get the traps into the hands of the user at the lower levels where they might be effective.

There are two problems as I see them:

(1st) Traps do little damage relative to their minimum level. A small mine (minimum level 5) can't be used until a character is presumably running level 5 quests but the damage output is so low (especially on hard/elite) that those traps are irrelevant to quests at those levels. If those same traps could be used in level 3 quests or level 4 quests they would have a relatively larger impact. This scales throughout trap progression i.e., monsters are too powerful in level 7 quests by the time you can use an average mine, level 9 monsters laugh at large mines (minimum level 9), and monsters in quests level 11 and higher are now beyond the reach of deadly traps (mimum level 11).

(2nd) The drop rate for trap parts is so low that there are not enough to construct your first part until you have out leveled the content where it might be useful. A weak mine is minimum level 3 - good luck finding enough trap parts on Korthos to build one. Odds are a Artificer who takes trapmaking at level 1 with the cannith dragon mark won't be able to scrounge enough parts from their own efforts of disabling traps until they have out leveled the content where those traps could be useful i.e., they will reach level 6 before they have enough trap parts to construct an small trap (min level 5). And now that they are running level 6 content that small mine is too weak to be of any use. This was my experience on my rogue as a dedicated trap maker.

An extra problem exists with grenades - you need Free Agent Favor before you can purchase the flasks to make the grenades. Will the character have acquired enough favor by level 2 to purchase the flasks or will they again over level the relative power of those grenades before they can be used?


Adding to your suggestion Aesop, I'd like to see Artificers be able to craft the flasks needed for grenades so that at least someone, if not the artificer ???? (I still don't agree with this Turbine), might have a chance to use the grenades by level 2.

Artificers should also be able to tranmogrify trap parts i.e. change a mechanical part into an acid part for example to facilitate crafting and overcome the dearth of specific trap parts of certain energy types at low levels.

Lastly, we desperately need more trap parts! Double the number currently given from disarmed traps.

[joneb1999]

To me the trap and grenade making mechanic was a waste of time for the devs as it produces such a weak weapon for a huge amount of effort. There was a chance here to make something unique but worthwhile too but its a big time fail.

[Rakian_Knight]

I think that this is the effect of a "quick fix" that they are running into when they first added trapmaking. Rogues would make the gernades and then sell them or trade them off to another character so to put a stop on non-trapmaking characters using them they put in a requirement for rogue. Now that artificers have trapfinding (the only real requirement for trapmaking) they need to go back and figure out a new way of doing it.

Personally, I don't see the problem with buying and selling potentially dangerous items that everyone can use except add a min level to some of them, but stormreach law does for some reason. I guess that's a thief acrobat for you. If you want to buy them sure I'll take your money by selling you them.

[Claver]

There was a chance here to make something unique but worthwhile too but its a big time fail.

I agree Joneb; It's a shame too because it undermines the opportunity for the artificers to also provide a different play experience from all the other classes in the game. Right now, the Artificer plays like a Buff-Bard with a crossbow. With a little more love for traps it could play as an ambusher class. Pets could guard a flame turret with mines surrounding it while the Artificer lures the victims in with crossbow fire. Setting up the ambushes would offer a different play experience from any other class in the game. Granted, this can still be done but its NOT VIABLE. If artificers, the crafting class, can craft the traps more readilly, and employ them at an earlier level then this style of game play might be an option.

Until then, I think I'll stick to playing a bard.

[Aesop]

Oh also Mines and Grenades should NOT be equipable weapons. Instead they should be CLICKABLE (like a clicky or a potion) allowing the trapmaker to actually make use of them on the fly. They still have cooldowns and further limitations already so it should not be a problem.

Grenades are thrown at the target when clicked and mines drop right in front of the Trapsmith when clicked.

DCs can be based on 10+Disable Device Ranks+Int Mod+Bonus (Mechanic or some other bonus whether from Feat or even some sort of equipment)


Obviously Trap part drops should be increased extremely (a step beyond significantly) and perhaps even sell basic parts at the Free Agent vendor.


Aesop

[MartinusWyllt]

So long as they aren't made 100% returning...that could get messy.

[Aesop]

So long as they aren't made 100% returning...that could get messy.

Or HILARIOUS.

rogue: Take this... uh oh.
BOOM!!!
rogue: Ok what jackass gave me boomerang grenades. You're **** lucky I have evasion... Arti you ok.
Artificer: /wheeze ... I'm ... fine. /cough puff of smoke