Fighting FvS advice

[Eleidon]

I'm currently playing a lvl 9 human FvS (28 pts build), greatsword/buff/healing.
It's pretty fun now, but i'm asking myself about future, and end-of-game content and possibilities.
(i haven't got to more than 10th level at this point with my toons, and thus don't have TR or whatsoever)

Started with :
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 16

I know it's not what specialists would recommand, but didn't want to loose too much saves (dex/wis), and didn't know when i created it that Cha could be taken lower, and it has some point in my required build.
But well it's as it is, perhaps not the best but it works in actual dungeons.

As feats, i'm planning to get the full 2-handed line, and power attack (not empowering healing).
Str/Con as human adaptabilities, healing enhancement lines, toughness lines, silver flame exorcism, human adaptability and human self-healing enhancement.
All leveling ability points in str.

As spells, i only take healing and buff: defensive, bad-effect-removing ones and fighting-ability ones. No offensive spell (or perhaps blade barrier? What do you state about it with these stats?)

Then i have 2 big questions:
- is human adaptability worth it, and to which extent?
- i usually prefer to stay capstone class, and i planned this when i begun with this one. But these days i was thinking about going to 17 FvS/3 Pal. Would you think it's a good choice?


This would change a few things, first what i loose:
- 2 lvl 8 spells... but 2 is enough for what i'm planning to do.
- no lvl 9 spells... not a big issue for me as i don't see too much interest in them (they are for "full healing" or spell-offensive FvS)
- less sp... but i already get plenty at this point.
- no capstone, but really not an issue again.
- no DR 10/silver, that's the only really nasty point of going multiclass as i see things.
- less will/reflex save at lvl 18 only, because it's completely balanced the other way at lvl 19.

And what i get:
- BAB of Pal, better than FvS one.
- one more feat, as i'll be able to exchange my greatsword proficiency feat taken at lvl 1 (automatically given when Pal).
- martial weapons proficiency, can be good for having a big maul to smash skeletons.
- heavy armor proficiency, can be interesting.
- a few more HP... better than nothing.
- Pal aura, with a few good enhancements.
- Cha bonus on all saves!!! This point is definitely one of the best imo.
- disease immunity and fear immunity, save potions/equipment slots.


I think this is a good way to increase survival ability in high-level content, perhaps even in epic.
What experimented players can say about this? Did i mistake something?
(i'll have to change alignment for multiclassing, but i could purchase one, no problem for that. And i have access to most of the "good gear" and epic content)

And also: if that's a good option, when should i begin to multiclass? When FvS 17, or before?


(notice: i'm playing to have fun, not especially wanting to be "the best" in my category)

[pelaaja]

*cough* What's the build? Nowhere said <.<

I assume 3 paladin/17 FvS. Why 3 pally? I see not that great things over 18 FvS/2 pally, or 18 FvS/2 rogue or even 16 FvS/2 rogue/2 pally. 3 Pally gives aura bonuses and an extra LoH. Still, it's not worth it over the Mass Heal.

Now, about your attributes:
STR is ok. 18 costs a bit too much.
DEX is okish. neutral number is good.
CON is a bit too low. 14 would be good
INT is too low. You can get Diplo and Concentration, yes. But also Balance and UMD would be neat. 12 could be good.
WIS is a dump stat. Max it or dump it. 8 is fine.
CHA is IMO a bit too high for a FvS who doesn't use spells. 14 is good.

Saves are high enough with just 18 FvS/2 rogue. Or that's what i've heard of. FvS has the best save develpment in the game ( in the end, +14 to all saves ). But, i have to admit, 2 pally really ensures that you save them. That's the reason i've been planning of WF 16 FvS/2 rogue/2 pally.

About your pros and cons:
1. You don't get much HP from splashing into Paladin. Only like 6 more. Paladin Toughness enhancement can't be taken with FvS Toughness enhancement.
2. In the end, Heavy Armor prof. isn't that "vital." Your AC won't be high enough to tank.
3. Mass Heal is a very great spell. Losing it is a huge con.
4. BAB doesn't matter when you can just use Divine Power.

It seems that you want high saves and still be able to fight. How about 18 FvS/2 paladin or 18 FvS/2 fighter?

Just my thoughts. Think it a bit more before that.

And about when to multiclass: I'd get the aura ASAP. probably like this:
1: Paladin
2-7: FvS (Prestige ASAP)
8: Paladin

But if you roll 17/3, good luck with it

[-Zephyr-]

Erm, I didn't read the whole post, but I think it won't work end game. Seriously.
Your DPS will remain low compared to what's expected end game, and your healing will be terrible. FvS simply don't have enough feats to afford weapon proficiency + THF line + power attack.

17/3 is a bad idea for a new player. Something you should learn is that cure spells are not good. You want to use Heal, and Mass Heal (known in game as Heal, Mass). Those two are the ones which will allow you to save tons of SP while learning how to heal. Because as a FvS, you will be asked to heal. You can't solo raids, nor epics, so you can't avoid that.

If you want a melee FvS build, I recommend the Soul Survivor build. It is Warforged, granting him free proficiency and attack/damage bonuses with greatsword, more DR at cap, while retaining the full healing ability. Which is what you'll be asked to do for the most part, healing.

[r3dl4nce]

For a melee favored soul you have two choices:
20 fvs warforged lord of blades with greatsword eSoS (max STR + level ups, 16 CON, rest CHA)
18fvs/2monk elf or half elf with 2 scimitars (max str + level ups, 15 dex+2 tome, 14 CON, rest CHA, all the 3 TWF feat)

If you don't have 32 points build, don't think to make a good fvs melee.

[Khayvan]

i'm asking myself about future, and end-of-game content and possibilities.

As you level more, you'll start to see that your damage output falls further and further behind pure melee classes like fighters and barbs. You really won't qualify to take a DPS slot in a party, and most often you'll be expected to be a healer anyway. Don't sacrifice your healing abilities to enhance your damage, it's not worth it and you'll just end up doing bad damage as well as bad healing. Make sure you can keep the party standing, and no one will much care how much personal DPS you're putting out.

As feats, i'm planning to get the full 2-handed line, and power attack (not empowering healing).

My main is a WF Lord of Blades build with greatswords, and I can tell you with no hesitation that the Two Handed Fighting feats are not worth what you give up in metamagic feats. The metas will make or break your build.

Here's what I would suggest for you:

1: Toughness - more HP and unlocks Toughness enhancements.
1(Human): Greatsword Prof

3: Extend - this helps your buffs and will save you some mana from not recasting as often. When most of your buffs are lasting 12+ minutes you may not want to use this any more and can swap it out for something else. But it will always be useful for your short term combat buffs like Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Prayer. Personal call here.

6: Maximize - qualifies for the PrE line and is absolutely vital to casting healing spells in later levels, as well as improving your Blade Barriers.

9: Quicken - you're going to start getting spells with long casting times and this is vital to make sure you can cast them while getting hit. My toon would be unplayable without this feat.

12: Improved Critical: Slashing - more damage

15: Empower Healing - this helps in raid-level healing and is the only thing that will boost your Heal and Mass Heal spells.

18: Power Attack - more damage

If you're into greatswords that's fine and it will work. But there are better two-handed weapons out there and since you won't get any faith-based enhancements for any of them I would recommend falchion or great axe for more damage.

Str/Con as human adaptabilities, healing enhancement lines, toughness lines, silver flame exorcism, human adaptability and human self-healing enhancement.

You also want the Angel Of Vengenace Prestige line. It's very good for any type of Soul build.

As to Human Adaptability, it's great if it boosts your stat(s) to an even number. Remember that you can respec enhancements every 3 days for a little plat, so take them if it helps you and drop them when they're not.

No offensive spell (or perhaps blade barrier? What do you state about it with these stats?)

BB will work fine, just realize most things will save against it. Even still, it will do more damage than your sword with Maximize and the AoV enhancements. Evasion mobs will be an issue at times but those are fairly easy to just beat down. I find BB to be of much more use when I solo since it's usually difficult to coordinate a party to make good use of the spell.

Also, Searing Light is a good spell. No save, and it gets boosts from your Maximize feat and your AoV prestige.

But these days i was thinking about going to 17 FvS/3 Pal. Would you think it's a good choice?

Nothing you get for the 3rd level of paladin is worth losing your 9th level spell slot for. Nothing.

Personally, I'd stay pure. The DR is very nice, the extra SP is nice (you will need it) and the capstone is decent. The extra 9th level spell slots don't do a lot for me on a melee build but they're fun to play around with.

Splashing 2 levels of paladin will make use of your overcharged Charisma and free up the feat. Splashing 2 fighter instead will still free up the feat but also give you 2 more feats. This way you could fit in 2 of the THF feats, but it's not something I'd recommend overall.

Neither splash gives you anything you can't live without, but they will delay your access to better spells. I'd take the build to 18 FvS first and see how you feel about it then. Take the last two levels for your splash if you still want it.

- no lvl 9 spells... not a big issue for me as i don't see too much interest in them (they are for "full healing" or spell-offensive FvS)

This is a misconception on your part, my friend. Mass Heal is a wonderful spell for any Soul build. It is much more effective and much more mana-efficient than any lower-level mass cure spell. It is not just for "full healing" builds or anything of the sort and you will want it. I'd only recommend advanced builds/players go without it, and I don't consider myself one of those players.

No, the concept and build isn't optimal but it will work. Just play to the strengths of the toon (healing and buffing) and don't try to make it something it's not (top-notch damage dealer). This game doesn't require optimal anyway, the most important thing is that you enjoy the character. If nothing else, take it to 20 and collect some gear for a possible reincarnation down the line. If you do enjoy playing this a a human, I think you'd like it even more as a Warforged.

[voodoogroves]

For a melee favored soul you have two choices:
20 fvs warforged lord of blades with greatsword eSoS (max STR + level ups, 16 CON, rest CHA)
18fvs/2monk elf or half elf with 2 scimitars (max str + level ups, 15 dex+2 tome, 14 CON, rest CHA, all the 3 TWF feat)

If you don't have 32 points build, don't think to make a good fvs melee.

Don't discount the lasers or the 18/1/1 and 18/2 splits.

You can easily make a decent melee favored soul as a pure 20 any race swinging whatever weapon you blow a proficiency on, pushing STR at all levels. You don't need saves for DP, capstones and largely not for blade barrier. I know a number of these.

I've got an 18/2 fighter half-elf split and he's certainly a beast - you trade evasion for STR and haste boost ... that's an offensive choice whereas a monk split is a defensive choice.

I know a number of 18/1/1 splits too ... one of fighter and one of barbarian (speed boost!) This works better for THF (the extra feat on a TWF build for an 18/2 is handy).

The point of fact is that once you add in the heals, key divine buffs and the spells where saves are unimportant - there's not a lot of room to pack in save based spells, so you don't need lots of focus/penetration.

[unbongwah]

- BAB of Pal, better than FvS one.

You can cast Divine Power which gives you full BAB, so the +1 BAB from pally 3 / FvS 17 vs FvS 20 is basically irrelevant.

- one more feat, as i'll be able to exchange my greatsword proficiency feat taken at lvl 1 (automatically given when Pal).

If what you want are extra feats, fighter or monk is a better choice; monk also gets you Evasion. Extra feats are about the only reason I would seriously consider splashing a FvS.

- martial weapons proficiency, can be good for having a big maul to smash skeletons.
- heavy armor proficiency, can be interesting.
- a few more HP... better than nothing.

Again, fighter gets you all this as well.

- Pal aura, with a few good enhancements.

Unfortunately, with only pally 3, your aura will be pretty weaksauce; IMHO it's not even worth factoring in.

- Cha bonus on all saves!!! This point is definitely one of the best imo.

This is the big thing which pally splashes have going for them and is the only reason I would consider it. However, as a FvS you have high saves all around, so it's less necessary.

- disease immunity and fear immunity, save potions/equipment slots.

I consider this only a minor benefit, especially since again FvS have high saves across the board.

BTW, are you considering an LR / GR to fix your base stats? Those are the real issue with your build, IMHO. You might also want to have a look at the LASER thread.

[Chette]

As feats, i'm planning to get the full 2-handed line, and power attack (not empowering healing).

You're also going to want improved critical slashing, maximize, toughness and quicken. If you splash into a class that gets extra feats you may want to consider empower, or another toughness feat depending if you have any good gear for boosting HP.

As spells, i only take healing and buff: defensive, bad-effect-removing ones and fighting-ability ones. No offensive spell (or perhaps blade barrier? What do you state about it with these stats?)

You should still take the big damage spells like divine punishment and blade barrier, possibly cometfall for leveling.

Then i have 2 big questions:
- is human adaptability worth it, and to which extent?

If you are currently at an odd bracket for either strength or constitution, take the appropriate adaptability enhancement to get you to an even bracket. Otherwise don't. Change these around if your stats change so that you stay even.

- i usually prefer to stay capstone class, and i planned this when i begun with this one. But these days i was thinking about going to 17 FvS/3 Pal. Would you think it's a good choice?

How are you getting greatsword proficiency? Did you take a feat for it? On a human greatsword user I think you will have to splash something with martial weapons proficiencies. You could have automatically gained proficiency if you were warforged, but not with human. I would recommend either 2 fighter levels, 1 fighter level, or 1 fighter and 1 barbarian level.

1 fighter: GS proficiency, 1 extra feat, haste boost
2 fighter: GS proficiency, 2 extra feats, haste boost, +1 strength enhancement. Slightly less SP than the 1 fighter splash
1 fighter/1 barbarian: Everything 1 fighter has, plus faster movement, sprint boost. Slightly less SP than the 1 fighter splash

This would change a few things, first what i loose:
- 2 lvl 8 spells... but 2 is enough for what i'm planning to do.
- no lvl 9 spells... not a big issue for me as i don't see too much interest in them (they are for "full healing" or spell-offensive FvS)
- less sp... but i already get plenty at this point.
- no capstone, but really not an issue again.
- no DR 10/silver, that's the only really nasty point of going multiclass as i see things.
- less will/reflex save at lvl 18 only, because it's completely balanced the other way at lvl 19.

Level 8 spells aren't that great, but you will likely want mass heal. Don't trick yourself into thinking you are not "full healing", that's silly. Any melee FvS should still be able to heal just as well as any other FvS. If you plan otherwise you're wasting potential. The capstone is nice, but I think a splash for fighter brings more to the table than the capstone for a melee FvS.

And what i get:
- BAB of Pal, better than FvS one.
- one more feat, as i'll be able to exchange my greatsword proficiency feat taken at lvl 1 (automatically given when Pal).
- martial weapons proficiency, can be good for having a big maul to smash skeletons.
- heavy armor proficiency, can be interesting.
- a few more HP... better than nothing.
- Pal aura, with a few good enhancements.
- Cha bonus on all saves!!! This point is definitely one of the best imo.
- disease immunity and fear immunity, save potions/equipment slots.

You only get the BAB of a Pal for the Pal levels, not the full 20. But it doesn't matter, as if you cast divine power you'll have a full BAB anyway.
I agree that you should take a splash of something with martial weapons proficiencies if you are not warforged.
Armor proficiency doesn't matter, you won't have decent AC anyway past level 14
FvS already have pretty decent saves, I wouldn't splash just for this.
Disease can be cured with heal, fear can be prevented with greater heroism

I think you can have a ton of fun on this character, even if it's not perfect. There's too many min maxers in this game already who forget that they play it to have fun. I think you would really enjoy an 18 FvS 1 barbarian 1 fighter, because it get the awesome run speed and sprint boost. I would take a splash right away so that you can swap out your greatsword proficiency feat. Then take the next splash after you have blade barrier and heal, so that would probably be at level 15 if my math is correct. This will be a really powerful build at mid level, and still performs well at end game. No, you won't be doing amazing DPS, but you can heal with the best of them, while still contributing some damage. Just make sure to shore up your HP to make up for that low con.

One last tip, try to get the wrath of sora kell set as soon as possible. It comes from the lordsmarch plaza chain. You will get +2 to hit and damage, but you will also get greater potency VI. This means you can be smacking stuff with your sword while also casting blade barriers without having to swap out for a potency sceptor or something.

[voodoogroves]

One last tip, try to get the wrath of sora kell set as soon as possible. It comes from the lordsmarch plaza chain. You will get +2 to hit and damage, but you will also get greater potency VI. This means you can be smacking stuff with your sword while also casting blade barriers without having to swap out for a potency sceptor or something.

Going to echo this; I just told this story in another thread but it is relevant here.

I TR'd one of my characters to level up with some buddies of mine. Unlike other characters, I didn't get all the green steel and raid loot I would have ordinarily planned for before TRing. He has Tharnes Goggles from VOD ... that was it. Race is different (was WF, now half-elf) so plenty of the other stuff he had (docents, including dragontouched, etc.) aren't as useful.

He's just about re-capped now. I've almost entirely fitted him out with stuff from the new chains and the last few events. His build is ...

Fighter 2 / FVS 18 - AoV2 ... fighter for haste boost and extra feats

Fighter feats: Power Attack, Improved Crit
Base feats: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Quicken, Empower, Maximize, Toughness
Half elf dilettante: Rogue
FVS option: Undying Court (scimmies)

Key enhancments: Haste boost, Angel of Vengeance 2, healing and smiting lines,

STR 18 to start ... CON and DEX 15 each I think, smattering of points into INT (for UMD) and CHA (to be able to cast spells).


Equipment:
- Various weapon sets

Head - Sora Katra
Gloves - Sora Katra
Ring1 - Sora Katra
Ring2 - Proof against poison of heavy fort
Body - Fleshshaper's Brigandine slotted with Arcane Lore
Belt - CON 6 false life of some sort
Neck - Silver Flame talisman (seriously) + some clickies (invisibility, heroism, etc.)
Boots - Some sort of striders - may be Boots of the Innocent now that Vol drops them more frequently
Cloak - Stormsingers + Mabar 16th level
Bracers - Tharak Bracelet
Trinket - Swaps - pearl of power 10, upgraded bold trinket from Crystal Cove
Goggles - Tharnes - though I'd use the lenses if I could pull them from Acute Delerium

I've got some other stuff but as it stands (some ardor/brilliance clickies), that's way effective ... and almost entirely from the new packs.


Most of that is BTA gear. It works surprisingly well.

[Enoach]

...

Then i have 2 big questions:
- is human adaptability worth it, and to which extent?
- i usually prefer to stay capstone class, and i planned this when i begun with this one. But these days i was thinking about going to 17 FvS/3 Pal. Would you think it's a good choice?


This would change a few things, first what i loose:
- 2 lvl 8 spells... but 2 is enough for what i'm planning to do.
- no lvl 9 spells... not a big issue for me as i don't see too much interest in them (they are for "full healing" or spell-offensive FvS)
- less sp... but i already get plenty at this point.
- no capstone, but really not an issue again.
- no DR 10/silver, that's the only really nasty point of going multiclass as i see things.
- less will/reflex save at lvl 18 only, because it's completely balanced the other way at lvl 19.

And what i get:
- BAB of Pal, better than FvS one.
- one more feat, as i'll be able to exchange my greatsword proficiency feat taken at lvl 1 (automatically given when Pal).
- martial weapons proficiency, can be good for having a big maul to smash skeletons.
- heavy armor proficiency, can be interesting.
- a few more HP... better than nothing.
- Pal aura, with a few good enhancements.
- Cha bonus on all saves!!! This point is definitely one of the best imo.
- disease immunity and fear immunity, save potions/equipment slots.


I think this is a good way to increase survival ability in high-level content, perhaps even in epic.
What experimented players can say about this? Did i mistake something?
(i'll have to change alignment for multiclassing, but i could purchase one, no problem for that. And i have access to most of the "good gear" and epic content)

And also: if that's a good option, when should i begin to multiclass? When FvS 17, or before?


(notice: i'm playing to have fun, not especially wanting to be "the best" in my category)

First I would like to point out that Multi-classing a FvS is really a tough choice as they do get some pretty good stuff in their bag-o-tricks from 18 on.

I'm going to list out what is lost when you go 17/(3 anything else)

What you Loose

• 1 Level 8 Spell
• 3 Level 9 Spells (Heal, Mass; True Resurrection; Summon Monster IX; Implosion; Energy Drain)
• +2 to Base Reflex/Fort/Will Saves
• -3 BaB
• DR10 (Silver or Cold Iron Depending on Deity as a Human)
• Capstone - +2 Charisma +2 Heal Skill +2 Diplomacy/Intimidate (Deity dependent) and Searing Light/Healing Word (Deity Dependent)

What you gain with 1 Paladin Level

• Martial Weapons Profeciency
• Heavy Armor Profeciency
• Aura of Good (+1 AC +1 to Saves - Overshadowed by Paladin Level > 1)
• +2 to Base Fort
• 1 Smite Evil (this regenerates)
• +1 BaB

What you gain with 2 Paladin Levels

• Everything 1 Paladin Level gets you
• Divine Grace (Adds Charisma Modifier to Saves - Big bonus for Charisma Classes)
• 1 Lay On Hands (calculation is based on Paladin Level anc charisma modifier)
• +1 to Base Fort
• 1 Smite Evil (this regenerates)
• +1 BaB

What you gain with 3 Paladin Levels

• Everything 2 Paladin Level gets you
• Divine Health (Disease Immunity)
• Fear Immunity
• +1 to Base Reflex
• +1 to Base Will
• +1 BaB

A couple notes:

1. 3 Paladin levels do not change your BaB as FvS Gain 3 BaB from Level 18 to 20 - So this is Equal
2. Your saves will be higher with the biggest contribution coming from your charisma modifier
3. You loose access to level 9 spells - While Heal, Mass is an effiecent spell it will lack punch if you do not have the Quicken Feat. Energy Drain and Implosion are actually good spells even for Melee oriented FvS. Energy Drain makes hard enemies easier to handle and only has a Spell Penetration check. Implosion has saves associated with it, but since it works on everything Living/Construct/Undead it is a potent close quarter Trash remover.
4. 10 DR is a huge loss. If you watch your combat logs you will notice that many times you health gets nickled and dimed away more times then One huge hit. Reducing this incoming damage goes a long way.
5. Capstones - Either Free Searing Light (max/empower can be applied) for damage as FvS with PrE get powers to weaking Light Resistance can make for some additional damage on enemies while your closing in, or the Healing Word which can give you some significant healing capabilites to help preserve SP for other things (Healing Word > 1 Lay on Hands in my opinion)

Based on this information I would still say that the loss to your FvS abilities is greater then the gain of the Paladin levels.

I do see that you would like to go as a GS wielding FvS, is race an issue? Others have mentioned Warforged, but Half Elf with a Fighter Dilettante is also an option for staying pure. It won't gain you heavy armor but it will get you Martial Weapons.

If race is an issue there is another way to get profeciency - however, it does make you dependent on someone else - Spell is Master Touch. At low levels casters can be found carrying this spell to help them use a two handed weapon more effectively. Getting some of these in scroll form and having someone that can cast it on you can help you be profecient until the next shrine.

Good luck with your build.