TWF needs some love (HAHAHA eh?)

[Cold_Stele]

I guess it's ironic that for a week there it looked like there might be an alternative race to 'pay to win' HOrc, even if it was 'pay to play' HElf.

[Kinerd]

Is it just eSoS that is in front of the pack or is it across the board?

This is one of the most frustrating things about the changes. Aside from the eSoS, THF is just an outclassed attack style, yet all of the recent changes that favor THF very very strongly favor the eSoS (this, damage boost, fort). They create a noticeable gap between eSoS and TWF, and they strongly exacerbate the gap between eSoS and every other THF. It would be hilarious (and depressing) to see a graph of the eSoS' wildly varying dominance over its lifetime - rollercoaster city.

[Cold_Stele]

It would be hilarious (and depressing) to see a graph of the eSoS' wildly varying dominance over its lifetime - rollercoaster city.

I remember using one in the Vale just after the mod was released. Someone commented 'You're still using that? Lol most ppl leave it in the chest now'.

[Cold_Stele]

Can we get a DPS calc for eSOS doing 7d6(?) damage with Deadly Weapons if the proposed change to epic weapons is implemented?

Change would be 2d6 (base) + 3d6 (+1.5 tier II epic) +2d6 (+1 Deadly weapons).

[Kinerd]

Let's look at a pure horc barbarian, 68 Strength, 11 (*2) Power Attack, Hasted, absolutely naked otherwise, and not using supreme cleave twitching. This gives spreadsheet values of 385 / 319 / 253 against 0 / 50 / 100 fort.

Now we add Deadly Weapons. This brings us to 410 / 339 / 268, or about a 6% increase. (For reference, Improved Critical in this case is about a 7% increase against 50 fort.)

Now we add 25% Damage Boost. Accounting for activation time, this brings us to 458 / 377 / 297, or about an 18% total increase. In other words, if the barb had been doing 500 DPS against trash before update 11, we'd expect them to reach 590 in update 11.

[-Zyxas-]

With the assumption that TWF'ing should have higher DPS usually than THF'ing as THF'ing has more utility (AoE damage), easier qualifications (no dex requirement), easier DPS generation (no need for feats for single target DPS) and easier inventory management (half as many weapons needed/inventory slots used).

Though, TWF'ing does provide double procs (stuns/vorpals etc).

Is it just eSoS that is in front of the pack or is it across the board?

This.

THF wins vs TWF against groups of mobs by a long shot.
Dex requirement - usually less con and/or strength for a TWF build compared to basically the same build for THF.
THF has a bit easier gearing - 1 GS wep vs 2, 1 eSOS vs 2 eChaosblade (rarer for 1 anyway)
TWF should have a fair amount higher DPS vs single targets. People seem to have overlooked your post (quoted).

[Indoran]

Weapons that are not Epic Sword of Shadows don't have 5d6 base damage, therefore only Epic Sword of Shadows gets +5d6 damage from Deadly Weapons.

not even eSoS gets 5d6... it gets the base item base damage as a bonus... sooo not 5d6...

[Daeronzw]

I had a twf human Monster build in mind. If it was using two epic chimera's fangs with all three dragonmarks, would it really be it that bad?

[elg582]

You know, they could just add in the monkey grip feat, and we could TWF with eSoS'

[Khellendros13]

While you are at it, can you confirm my own calculations, that Esos on a Barbarian is still better than Lit2 or HobGLOB vs 80% fort?

[Boromirs]

Again: eSoS should NOT EXIST in this game. It was a mistake, and a very bad one at that. Look how this one weapon screws up game balance.

And further, remember THF has the unique ability to hit several targets at once. Plus it's just one weapon making it twice as easy to get. TWF should do CONSIDERABLY more damage to a single target, because of lack of multi-target ability and double the difficulty to acquire the set.

As it stands now. The absolute max DPS for TWF from what I can tell is a dual wielding Epic Chim Fang slotted silver/deadly with all three dragonmarks...yeh have fun getting/making a char based around this one weapon. This is not a viable route for a TWF. A dev really needs to look at the balance between TWF and THF again.

[neverconsentual]

i cant believe people are complaining that horc barbs out dps fighters

the fighters get what, 10/11's the dps of a the active barbarian PASSIVELY without having to deal with fatigue for 17 levels, a window for 75 more ac while in twf attacking, and improved combat dces on things like stunning blow/improved sunder? I wouldn't be complaining.

[Masadique]

i cant believe people are complaining that horc barbs out dps fighters

the fighters get what, 10/11's the dps of a the active barbarian PASSIVELY without having to deal with fatigue for 17 levels, a window for 75 more ac while in twf attacking, and improved combat dces on things like stunning blow/improved sunder? I wouldn't be complaining.

Game balance is based around end game for the most part. The first 17 levels really don't matter. AC though? Really? No, barbs can't get to insane AC, but the majority, probably 95%+, of all fighters can't either. The improved DC's are just not true because almost all of them are strength based which means barbs will be getting a massive bonus to these.

Yes, a fighter can get more AC, and they can also, probably, get higher DC's if they build and gear specifically that way. Barbarians get everything no matter what build they are because they really only need strength and constitution.

I can't believe people still don't know how to use a keyboard though so I guess I can't be mad at you for being baffled as well.