TWF needs some love (HAHAHA eh?)

[trashstack]

Level5 Artificer Infusion: Silver Weapons
Your target's currently equipped weapons gain the ability to bypass Silver damage reduction. An item can have only one temporary item enchantment at a time.

Level6 Artificer Infusion: Deadly Weapons
Your targets currently equipped weapons deal +1(base weapon damage). (A weapon that deals 1d6 per hit will deal 2d6 instead, while a weapon that deals 2d4 damage per hit will deal 4d4 damage instead. This effects base dice associated with a weapon any time they are rolled.) An item can have only one temporary item enchantment at a time.

If I read it correctly...

In normal raids/6 men epics:
Deadly ESoS 10d6+10 weapon damage

In hard+ raids:
Silver ESoS 5d6+10 weapon damage no DR
Deadly EAntique 6d10+9(righteous & +1 enhancement red slot) weapon damage
(Deadly silver ESoS 10d6+10 weapon damage...............if pally or have runes)

No way can a twf melee keep up with the dps anymore.

Besides with the upcoming damage boost upgrade and higher raid boss hp (&fort), I don't think there's any endgame need for melees other than ESoS barbs. Highest dps, most sustained dps, sturdiest hp bar. Okay I guess light monks will still be there for stun immunity...

(Ofc all that said is based on the assumption that traditional melees are still taken into groups...)

[earlran]

Uhh who are all these people running with eSOS? Wish they joined my raids. You are crying about the ~1% of people lucky enough to have the eSOS, vs. people who crafted Lit 2's OH THE HORROR. Not the end of the world imo. Not every barb is going to have the eSOS.

[trashstack]

Uhh who are all these people running with eSOS? Wish they joined my raids. You are crying about the ~1% of people lucky enough to have the eSOS, vs. people who crafted Lit 2's OH THE HORROR. Not the end of the world imo. Not every barb is going to have the eSOS.

I'm not talking about good builds/bad builds or elitism here. What I mean is the potential of two ways to build melees are unbalanced by current acquirable ingame items. I didn't mind minor difference but when the gap grows to 10~15%+ it's about time to work on it.

[Quarterling]

Are you taking into account that the spell is being casted onto both of the two-weapon fighter's weapons as well? I'd like to see your theoretical numbers on theirs as well since you only supplied the one for eSoS.

[Angelus_dead]

Are you taking into account that the spell is being casted onto both of the two-weapon fighter's weapons as well? I'd like to see your theoretical numbers on theirs as well since you only supplied the one for eSoS.

Weapons that are not Epic Sword of Shadows don't have 5d6 base damage, therefore only Epic Sword of Shadows gets +5d6 damage from Deadly Weapons.

[Grenada]

all i can say is i hope they make arties f2p (i know, almost impossible, bu i can dream all i want as long as im not in TS or shroud).

That way, every melee who puts up an lfm is gonna want me in their group

(lit2s are gonna be amazing, especially since they will basically be able to replace min2s when arty is present. same with eSOS.)

edit: also in op, you forgot that good an be slotted onto esos (Red Augment Crystal of Heaven's Light)

[blade_of_will]

Not disagreeing with you as I dont main any high level-well geared melees but... your post makes no sense.

You state that twf may be underpowered now.. but only talk about thf weapon numbers. There is no mention of twf beyond your statement that it is now inferior. You dont make a comparison of twf and thf weapons when both have the infusions. You likely dont even have a complete list of the infusions - there may be ones that favor twf over thf, or ones that for whatever reason are so superior to the two you list that these two will almost never be used. I'm not even sure how the silver infusion factors in with thf being superior as when not bypassing dr thf gets an advantage (because twf hits more often but for less damage, but thf hits less often but for more, x-dr/whatever should have more impact on twf). Your post lacks information that I, an uninformed reader, needs to be able to accurately judge the information.

Then you throw in some random speculation with no solid evidence as to exactly how much raid bosses will be buffed. There is no talk of testing or dev comments, so I assume that this is pure speculation and opinion. You also seem to be implying that the only purpose to have a (whatever traditional melee class) is for dps (which basically every class can provide in various degrees) and claim that barbarians will be the only melee needed at endgame because they are best in a few specific areas. I could, for example, claim that a 18paladin/2monk or /2rogue has a much sturdier hp bar, or that a rogue will still do more damage even with fort because of x, y, and z, but thats beyond the intention of the comparison between thf and twf.

All your post says to me is that melees in general will likely be much stronger than previously with u11 due to artificer weapon augments - and I think it will likely discourage already sub-par melees from improving and depending on other classes to buff them when many of them already expect to be coddled, buffed out the ass, and have everything held/webbed/dancing for them to slowly whittle down. To be clear, as a person who mains an arcane, I think that a well geared and played melee is a powerful force, but there are too many who do somewhat pathetic dps and expect the rest of the party to be there to make that pathetic dps higher.

[trashstack]

Are you taking into account that the spell is being casted onto both of the two-weapon fighter's weapons as well? I'd like to see your theoretical numbers on theirs as well since you only supplied the one for eSoS.

Assuming using khopeshes (no big difference with other twf weapons anyways), deadly weapon gives crafted ones +1d8 damge, gs +1d10 damge. Add a 0.8 with offhand and that's about it. No comparison with epic thf weapons due to them having much higher damage dice. Epic chaosblades gets more, but for all non pallys you need silver infusion to break DR first. Besides people with 2 of them are much rarer than ppl with eSoS.

I can see that devs are trying to boost the effectiveness of melees by adding significant buffs to weapons. (At the same time making artificers almost a must have in melee based raid groups. That's clever.) But all these changes is leading to one single melee build using one single weapon for high-end min/maxers. (At most two if antique is to be included; in norm raids eSoS still does more damage though.)

[blade_of_will]

Weapons that are not Epic Sword of Shadows don't have 5d6 base damage, therefore only Epic Sword of Shadows gets +5d6 damage from Deadly Weapons.

Lets compare dual epic chaosblades with the damage infusion to an epic sos w/ damage infusion. For now, I'm going to disregard crits because it would probably make it more complicated than I would want to handle, and because we dont know what % fort bosses are getting. Lets just say I assumed they get 100% fort Also assumed dps on bosses, so no glancing blows. If you want to compare dps on trash.. feel free.

Dual epic chaosblades, ((2d8*2)+6)*1.8 (for gtwf) base damage vs epic sos, 5d6*2+10

1d6 average = 3.5 3.5*5 = 17.5
1d8 average = 4.5 4.5*2 = 9

(9*2+6)*1.8 = 43.2 average damage per hit
(17.5*2)+10 = 45 average damage per hit

With criticals possible, esos gains more damage over chaosblades due to its threat range.
On non-chaotic targets, chaosblades gain 3.5*1.8 average damage per hit.
On lawful targets, chaosblades gain 7*1.8 average damage per hit.
On lawful targets with less than 100% fort, chaosblades get more damage from anarchich burst, but im too lazy to compare crit things.

Ofc, this just compares the weapons and not the classes/enchancements of those wielding them. As I said before, Im not a melee expert. More comparison is up to those people who are, I just thought i would make this stuff a bit more clear.

To me, it looks like if thf is superior to twf, considering the high end of the spectrum, it would have to be a factor in race/class/enhancements, and thus exist before the artificer infusion damage boost. There does not appear to be a huge difference in pure damage between the two styles, until you compare the damage against lawful targets (which many of the games raid bosses are) where the dual epic chaosblades will have a somewhat large advantage (10.5*1.8 = 18.9 average damage), though I am still excluding criticals for simplicity.

[Shade]

The solution is new and better 1 handed epics.

But epics are cancelled forever.

Thus There's no solution.

[Quarterling]

Weapons that are not Epic Sword of Shadows don't have 5d6 base damage, therefore only Epic Sword of Shadows gets +5d6 damage from Deadly Weapons.

I'm not sure if I am reading this right then.

Level 6 Artificer Infusion: Deadly Weapons
Your target's currently equipped weapons deal +1(base weapon damage). (A weapon that deals 1d6 per hit will deal 2d6 instead, while a weapon that deals 2d4 damage per hit will deal 4d4 damage instead. This effects base dice associated with a weapon any time they are rolled.) An item can have only one temporary item enchantment at a time.

If it is +1 base weapon damage, wouldn't and eSoS do 6d6 instead of 5d6? Adding +1 is not exactly the same thing as doubling it (e.g. 10d6). But it gives a 2d4 = 4d4 example, so is that correct, or a typo?

[trashstack]

If it is +1 base weapon damage, wouldn't and eSoS do 6d6 instead of 5d6? Adding +1 is not exactly the same thing as doubling it (e.g. 10d6). But it gives a 2d4 = 4d4 example, so is that correct, or a typo?

Base weapon damage does include all the dice. The +10 damage of ESoS is not included because its enhancement damage.

The solution is new and better 1 handed epics.

But epics are cancelled forever.

Thus There's no solution.

Lol yeah I'm glad what I'm trying to convey is understood.

[Xenostrata]

Actually, it has been stated by the devs that they MIGHT be recoding epics so that their damage is determined by base damage * epic weapon modifier. eSoS would be treated as having 2d6 base damage and, as a tier 2 epic, would have normal damage of base damage * 1.5, which is 5d6, but for the purpose of the infusion only benefit from a base damage of 2d6 and so end up with 7d6. Lit 2 khopeshes would retain their base damage for the spell, and so would still be ahead.

[thandros]

bet it won;t work for wraps (

[Quarterling]

Base weapon damage does include all the dice. The +10 damage of ESoS is not included because its enhancement damage.

I wasn't talking about the enhancement damage...

I was wondering how 5d6 gets to 10d6 when it quotes this:

+1 base weapon damage

5 + 1 = 6
5 + 1 != 10

So wouldn't eSoS be 6d6?

[Feithlin]

Level5 Artificer Infusion: Silver Weapons
Your target's currently equipped weapons gain the ability to bypass Silver damage reduction. An item can have only one temporary item enchantment at a time.

Level6 Artificer Infusion: Deadly Weapons
Your targets currently equipped weapons deal +1(base weapon damage). (A weapon that deals 1d6 per hit will deal 2d6 instead, while a weapon that deals 2d4 damage per hit will deal 4d4 damage instead. This effects base dice associated with a weapon any time they are rolled.) An item can have only one temporary item enchantment at a time.

If I read it correctly...

In normal raids/6 men epics:
Deadly ESoS 10d6+10 weapon damage

In hard+ raids:
Silver ESoS 5d6+10 weapon damage no DR
Deadly EAntique 6d10+9(righteous & +1 enhancement red slot) weapon damage
(Deadly silver ESoS 10d6+10 weapon damage...............if pally or have runes)

No way can a twf melee keep up with the dps anymore.

Besides with the upcoming damage boost upgrade and higher raid boss hp (&fort), I don't think there's any endgame need for melees other than ESoS barbs. Highest dps, most sustained dps, sturdiest hp bar. Okay I guess light monks will still be there for stun immunity...

(Ofc all that said is based on the assumption that traditional melees are still taken into groups...)

Unless I'm mistaken (I'm not on Lama so I'm really not sure), I think only one infusion can be applied to a weapon. So while eSoS would require Artificer infusion: Silver weapons to bypass DR (thus staying 5d6+10), a weapon that already bypasses DR could benefit from Deadly weapons. So a full dragonmarked sentinel with dual epic Chimera's Fangs would have in both hands 4d10 (2*4d10) + 10, 45% incite, shocking burst, disintegrate.

[Angelus_dead]

5 + 1 = 6
5 + 1 != 10

So wouldn't eSoS be 6d6?

5d6 + 1(5d6) = 10d6.

It's not as if Deadly Weapons adds only +1 to damage... that'd be silly.

[Quarterling]

5d6 + 1(5d6) = 10d6.

It's not as if Deadly Weapons adds only +1 to damage... that'd be silly.

Actually adding an extra 1d6 would increase the damage by about 4 with the way the dice are weighted. Though I see the equation now, I wonder why Turbine didn't just simply say "double base damage". Not counting the bonus damage added from the +10 of course (or any enhancement modifier).

[trashstack]

Unless I'm mistaken (I'm not on Lama so I'm really not sure), I think only one infusion can be applied to a weapon. So while eSoS would require Artificer infusion: Silver weapons to bypass DR (thus staying 5d6+10), a weapon that already bypasses DR could benefit from Deadly weapons. So a full dragonmarked sentinel with dual epic Chimera's Fangs would have in both hands 4d10 (2*4d10) + 10, 45% incite, shocking burst, disintegrate.

The high base damage of ESoS allows the use of deadly weapon infusion instead of silver in norm raids where DR is only 15; actually I believe in this case deadly is more effective than silver.
(Silver = +15 damage without crit threat; Deadly = +17.5 damage WITH crit threat)

Epic Chimera is indeed a potent weapon of choice for twfers, however to attain its max potential one has to sacrifice a few feat slots. Also as a bastardsword it has inferior crit profile to khopeshes.

[grodon9999]

If we ever need something more powerful than a Lightning II Khopesh that breaks DR there is something wrong with the world.