TWF needs some love (HAHAHA eh?)

[trashstack]

If we ever need something more powerful than a Lightning II Khopesh that breaks DR there is something wrong with the world.

Well check again. All I can say is that in the face of ESoS, LitII is but a myth.

Swing rates are averaged over a min, because I refuse to believe most end game fights that matters last shorter than 30 secs.
Also please do notice that how many factors favoring twfing (and kensei) are intentionally counted in.

[gyerv59]

If we ever need something more powerful than a Lightning II Khopesh that breaks DR there is something wrong with the world.

This

[gyerv59]

Well check again. All I can say is that in the face of ESoS, LitII is but a myth.

Swing rates are averaged over a min, because I refuse to believe most end game fights that matters last shorter than 30 secs.
Also please do notice that how many factors favoring twfing (and kensei) are intentionally counted in.

This is yet another spread sheet against 0 fort that "proves" TWF is inferior. Maybe in a vacuum it is, fortunetly we dont play in a vacuum.

[trashstack]

This is yet another spread sheet against 0 fort that "proves" TWF is inferior. Maybe in a vacuum it is, fortunetly we dont play in a vacuum.

Heh I thought spreadsheets are friends of twfers?

[grodon9999]

Well check again. All I can say is that in the face of ESoS, LitII is but a myth.

Swing rates are averaged over a min, because I refuse to believe most end game fights that matters last shorter than 30 secs.
Also please do notice that how many factors favoring twfing (and kensei) are intentionally counted in.

Don't compare a THF horc to a TWF horc.

Compare a THF horc Barb to a TWF Helf fighter/monster/Blitz and include sneak-attack as all but one melee in a group will have it on a boss. After your crunched the numbers put them through Shade's DPS challenge and see what happens.

It doesn't matter, we'll all casters ******* anyway

[trashstack]

Don't compare a THF horc to a TWF horc.

Compare a THF horc Barb to a TWF Helf fighter/monster/Blitz and include sneak-attack as all but one melee in a group will have it on a boss. After your crunched the numbers put them through Shade's DPS challenge and see what happens.

It doesn't matter, we'll all casters ******* anyway

There you go. To be fair all builds are sneak attacking.
DPS challenge does not favor a build relying on sneak attacks. If U11 comes live unchanged, I'm pretty sure Children/Cetuss/Shade himself/others will be able to show you how thf dominates.
Maybe you're right about casters though...

[QuantumFX]

If I read it correctly...

You, obviously, didn’t read this part of both descriptions correctly “An item can have only one temporary item enchantment at a time.”

[Tom_Hunters]

let's start the discussion when 5% of the active melee toons get 1 eSOS
(even then u might still can't find 1 in your 12-man group)

[trashstack]

You, obviously, didn’t read this part of both descriptions correctly “An item can have only one temporary item enchantment at a time.”

Actually I did. Did you read the whole thread?

Okay okay sigh... I just don't understand how easily every thread in melee forum turns into this...
This is NOT a thread about how uber I am, or a particular build is. It's not a nerf-demanding post either. This is a thread trying to point out how a new spell could make certain weapon/combat style benefit much more than others. Maybe way too much, from my perspective. That's all. A simple solution already mentioned by Shade, or a tweak mentioned by Xenostrata could make it more balanced...

[Feithlin]

There you go. To be fair all builds are sneak attacking.
DPS challenge does not favor a build relying on sneak attacks. If U11 comes live unchanged, I'm pretty sure Children/Cetuss/Shade himself/others will be able to show you how thf dominates.
Maybe you're right about casters though...

Could you please run an hypothetic human blitz w/ 3 dragonmarks using dual epic Chimera's Fangs to get an idea of the result?

[trashstack]

Could you please run an hypothetic human blitz w/ 3 dragonmarks using dual epic Chimera's Fangs to get an idea of the result?

Worse than I thought. I'm not 100% sure about chimera's attributes though. Seems that it used to have lightning strike but in release notes I only saw disintegrate. It will probably outdamage LitII khopeshes against fortified enemies though. Also, I already saw the tightness of feat slots when fitting chimera into blitz. Pretty sure at least one of Stunning blow/Toughness/Pally pastlife/BS proficiency has to be lost.

[QuantumFX]

Actually I did. Did you read the whole thread?

I did. That’s why I think your drama calculations:

In hard+ raids:
Silver ESoS 5d6+10 weapon damage no DR
Deadly EAntique 6d10+9(righteous & +1 enhancement red slot) weapon damage
(Deadly silver ESoS 10d6+10 weapon damage...............if pally or have runes)

Don’t equal this dramatic conclusion.

Besides with the upcoming damage boost upgrade and higher raid boss hp (&fort), I don't think there's any endgame need for melees other than ESoS barbs. Highest dps, most sustained dps, sturdiest hp bar. Okay I guess light monks will still be there for stun immunity...

The Epic Antique Greataxe doesn’t have the crit profile to be scary with the double base damage. And, the Epic SoS only gets the double base damage/Boss DR bypassing goodness if it’s wielded by a capstoned paladin or some dude with an obsessive love of Epic Devil Assault.

[trashstack]

I did. That’s why I think your drama calculations:


Don’t equal this dramatic conclusion.


The Epic Antique Greataxe doesn’t have the crit profile to be scary with the double base damage. And, the Epic SoS only gets the double base damage/Boss DR bypassing goodness if it’s wielded by a capstoned paladin or some dude with an obsessive love of Epic Devil Assault.

On against 50% fort, 15DR:

Deadly ESoS and Eantique both beat silver litII. Against higher fort and DR Eantique will continue to beat silver litII.
Also,
1. This is based on almost unrealistic multiTR builds. Each pastlife gained favors twf more than thf. So for normal players like me the gap between thf and twf is larger.
2. In U11 hard+ raids (perhaps ToD specifically, perhaps more) haste boost will most likely run out during the fight. Dps of twf builds on the chart will plummet once pastlife boosts and haste boosts run out. Of course barb damage boosts will run out too but the influence is relatively minor.

[Feithlin]

Worse than I thought. I'm not 100% sure about chimera's attributes though. Seems that it used to have lightning strike but in release notes I only saw disintegrate. It will probably outdamage LitII khopeshes against fortified enemies though. Also, I already saw the tightness of feat slots when fitting chimera into blitz. Pretty sure at least one of Stunning blow/Toughness/Pally pastlife/BS proficiency has to be lost.

Yep, quite disapointing. The weapon damage is a bit higher (2*2d10+10, 32 average) I think, but that problably doesn't change much the final result. Note that a human could activate both damage boosts and haste boosts at the same time.

[trashstack]

Yep, quite disapointing. The weapon damage is a bit higher (2*2d10+10, 32 average) I think, but that problably doesn't change much the final result. Note that a human could activate both damage boosts and haste boosts at the same time.

Aye you're right it's +10, didn't notice sorry bout that...
I'm fairly interested in activating both boosts but I suspect it will be changed. Hope not because it's likely the last chance for a twf to keep up... Even if not changed its sustainability will be put to test too.

[Alex301]

You can activate both action boosts now, the only difference in update 11 is that damage boosts will increase your damage by a percentage rather than just adding a static amount to each hit.

[wax_on_wax_off]

With the assumption that TWF'ing should have higher DPS usually than THF'ing as THF'ing has more utility (AoE damage), easier qualifications (no dex requirement), easier DPS generation (no need for feats for single target DPS) and easier inventory management (half as many weapons needed/inventory slots used).

Though, TWF'ing does provide double procs (stuns/vorpals etc).

Is it just eSoS that is in front of the pack or is it across the board?

[grodon9999]

let's start the discussion when 5% of the active melee toons get 1 eSOS
(even then u might still can't find 1 in your 12-man group)

We're far from the most hardcore people and we easily have 20+ ESoS in guild.

[grodon9999]

There you go. To be fair all builds are sneak attacking.
DPS challenge does not favor a build relying on sneak attacks. If U11 comes live unchanged, I'm pretty sure Children/Cetuss/Shade himself/others will be able to show you how thf dominates.
Maybe you're right about casters though...

The numbers I'm getting from AO's DPS calc don't match yours, but then again i think all the calcs are wrong because the don't account fro cleave-twitching.

So what if THFing barbs reign supreme, they should.

[grodon9999]

Is it just eSoS that is in front of the pack or is it across the board?

it's just the ESoS, THFing is way behind without it. The ESoS in the be-all and end-all of THFing.