artificers and paladins in u11

[SteeleTrueheart]

Please answer the question:
what do those 8 melees do if there isn't an artificer on the raid?

Draw straws to see who swaps to their arty or loses their spot?

j/k

the same thing they do today when we have no artys. Go kill stuff and take an extra 30 secs to finish the raid.

Whilst I think Paladins should have no equal in dps power vs evil outsiders, I don't find them so gimped as others do.

[gloopygloop]

How much is everyone actually getting? Who is everyone?

Anyone well geared enough to have DR breakers won't care about the artificer's ability to boost their weapons in that way most of the time (and, and there are plenty of non-ESoS DR breakers that are far more common).

Most players who are doing content harder than Shroud on Normal have both LitII weapons and DR breakers. We can safely discount Shroud on Normal because parties can already sleepwalk through that raid and will continue to sleepwalk through it after the raid changes in U11.

Deadly Weapons is nice. Getting to break DR on your LitII weapons is better.

Being able to break Pit Fiend DR with LitII weapons on Hard and Elite Shroud/VoD/ToD is going to make a bigger difference than Warchanter Bard songs.


Just think about what weapons you use in Hard/Elite Shroud/VoD/ToD. It's LitII or eSoS or Cannith weapon on trash followed by MinII or Cannith weapon or +x Metalline of PG or eSoS against the boss. Silver lets you dump the MinII/MetPG weapons and start usign the LitII/eSoS.

That's a pretty enormous boost. I doubt that anyone will use the Deadly Weapons option unless they already have a DR bypassing eSoS or +5HBSoGLOB Cannith weapon.

[Claymorep]

Please answer the question:
what do those 8 melees do if there isn't an artificer on the raid?

About artificers in hard involved dr raids like tod I seriously doubt about the fact that any lfm will not hardly search for it (like a bard for Epic von 6).

Make dps a non-factor for the 3 classes by equalizing their dps, crit profile included.

That would shift the difference between them to:
- Barb has the advantage of HP
- Pally has the advantage of survivability
- Fighter has the advantage of tactics

Maybe then ppl will choose the classes again for a real role.

I'll be totally with You if I have not to consider that about pallies ap I have 2 choices:
1st became a total dps build taking human damage boosts (5, 7 with verik that i can use in first part of fight then switch) and forgot aura, lays and stats (except +1 human str and +1 pally cha, others will cost too much)
2nd stay as I am dps/versatile/survavibility build without taking human damage boosts but this will involve a lack of dps about 17-21% (if my calcs are correct in the best pally frindly environment)... Too much to sustain a versatility/survavibility build in endgame contest. Moreover a top geared pally have 200-250 hp less than barbs and 100-180 hp less than fighters.

So I'm really involved about this discussion cause my choice to remain pally will be very hard to sustain when I can become a new top dps for better results and no real role for a pally.

Ps. Someone (tyvm to that guy), enlighted me about deadly weapon that a pally can use instead of silver or cold iron spell. I'd like to puntualize that this tread was opened after we knew about silver spell but before deadly weapon. Anyway my interventions was majorly about to enlighted the no-real role of pally in U11 as I did in Divine might tread.
Moreover never I said to nerf artificers or barb damage boosts, that I consider a must have but with a similar equivalency for other dps (and not to rely them to become human/helf).

[gloopygloop]

Ps. Someone (tyvm to that guy), enlighted me about deadly weapon that a pally can use instead of silver or cold iron spell. I'd like to puntualize that this tread was opened after we knew about silver spell but before deadly weapon. Anyway my interventions was majorly about to enlighted the no-real role of pally in U11 as I did in Divine might tread.
Moreover never I said to nerf artificers or barb damage boosts, that I consider a must have but with a similar equivalency for other dps (and not to rely them to become human/helf).

What weapon would you use the Damage Boost on, though? You could use it on a Silver slotted eSoS (since you get the Good from the capstone) or on a Cannith crafted +5 HBSoGLOB since that has silver already, but for any other weapon, you'd probably be better off getting the Silver added to a LitII weapon instead of getting the Deadly Weapon spell added to some weapon other than LitII.

And I haven't compared the +5HBSoGLOB + Deadly Weapon to Silver LitII yet, so I'm not even 100% sure that the Deadly Weapon boosted Cannith weapon will be better.

[Claymorep]

What weapon would you use the Damage Boost on, though? You could use it on a Silver slotted eSoS (since you get the Good from the capstone) or on a Cannith crafted +5 HBSoGLOB since that has silver already, but for any other weapon, you'd probably be better off getting the Silver added to a LitII weapon instead of getting the Deadly Weapon spell added to some weapon other than LitII.

And I haven't compared the +5HBSoGLOB + Deadly Weapon to Silver LitII yet, so I'm not even 100% sure that the Deadly Weapon boosted Cannith weapon will be better.

Sincerely I didn't tested different tipes of weapons except a esos for a 2hf or a lit2 kopesh for a 2wf, but I will be surprised if +5HBSoGLOB will be a better choice (undoubltly better an esos than a lit2 falchion). An esos will have a great advantage as it will add a great BASE bonus and on crits this bonus will become something really WHOAAA!
Clearly this will involve the difficulty of the raid as an increased fortified raid boss with an incrising dr as difficulty will be highten and different builds with different damage boosts will put a bit more variables in the equation...
I go to ask on Ryumajin about these as I'm starting to have an headache...
After all, while He is a statistic (his work is to insert datas), I'm an economist (my work is to let other works )...

[Drfirewater79]

Realy??? are those horc barbarians and fighters need more dmg boost? or is it working only on non epic weapons that doesnt have red augument slot like greensteel?

......

Giving every class except paladin and monk a huge boost and a minor boost to those 2 is not a good idea imo.
Monks are already popular but paladins could use some boost. Here is some nice idea about divine might improvement:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=335251



Whats your thoughts on that? some dev comment would be much appreciated

The silver weapons thing isnt that big a deal ... most peopel already have drbreakers for there classes.

I agree monks and palidans and any sword and board are the biggest issues in the post update 11 era of DDO ... but that is mainly cause AC is worthless in todays game.

What i dont like is artificers come in and there are already what 6 named rune arms? monks have been around for what 3 years now ... and we have 1 set of epic wraps ... no greensteel ... and two other named wraps one that sucks major (the new one from the new quest chain in 12) and the other that never drops in a quest that is hard to repeat without a door opener.

[dkyle]

What i dont like is artificers come in and there are already what 6 named rune arms? monks have been around for what 3 years now ... and we have 1 set of epic wraps ... no greensteel ... and two other named wraps one that sucks major (the new one from the new quest chain in 12) and the other that never drops in a quest that is hard to repeat without a door opener.

There are no random rune arms, so that comparison is a real stretch. The only options Artificers get are named ones.

[gloopygloop]

In case anyone cares, I made a thread to compare LitII, Cannith +5HBSoGLOB and MinII.
I'll follow up with a comparison of eSoS, LitII Greataxe and +5HBSoGLOB later this afternoon.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=336425

[LiquidShadow]

Please answer the question:
what do those 8 melees do if there isn't an artificer on the raid?

same thing as in evon6 without bard...

[LiquidShadow]

Make dps a non-factor for the 3 classes by equalizing their dps, crit profile included.

That would shift the difference between them to:
- Barb has the advantage of HP
- Pally has the advantage of survivability
- Fighter has the advantage of tactics

Maybe then ppl will choose the classes again for a real role.

barb increased hp increases his survivability - there is a reason why they always tank and paladins are not even asked to do that and dont forget about natural DR of barbs

pally has advantage of suvivability - not greater than other classes, they have low str and easily get knocked down. thats what i hate about it the most, cause u cant self heal while lying on ground... u say high saves, yea but no evasion like rangers and will save is pointless anyway cause u have fom... hp isnt that great either uhm so yea they are better in some situations but u can say that about fighter and barb too - especialy in quest full of tripping mobs like worgs and wolves

fighter has better trip and sometimes stunning blow, doesnt get knocked down that easily, has higher hp than paladins due to multiple toughness feat and more starting con

all mentioned above is about survivability and u pointed some defensive pros of barb and fighter but didnt say anything specific about paladins which suggest that u never played one or u simply dont want them to be balanced imo

i see no reason why paladins shouldnt be allowed to have good situational dps compared to barbs and fighters

[LiquidShadow]

The silver weapons thing isnt that big a deal ... most peopel already have drbreakers for there classes.

seriously? did u read first post? there is a difference between lets say Min II gs axe and ESOS in crit profile and compare epic antique greataxe with esos too then u can say something...

and btw this thread isnt about sword and board...

[sephiroth1084]

Most players who are doing content harder than Shroud on Normal have both LitII weapons and DR breakers. We can safely discount Shroud on Normal because parties can already sleepwalk through that raid and will continue to sleepwalk through it after the raid changes in U11.

Deadly Weapons is nice. Getting to break DR on your LitII weapons is better.

Being able to break Pit Fiend DR with LitII weapons on Hard and Elite Shroud/VoD/ToD is going to make a bigger difference than Warchanter Bard songs.


Just think about what weapons you use in Hard/Elite Shroud/VoD/ToD. It's LitII or eSoS or Cannith weapon on trash followed by MinII or Cannith weapon or +x Metalline of PG or eSoS against the boss. Silver lets you dump the MinII/MetPG weapons and start usign the LitII/eSoS.

That's a pretty enormous boost. I doubt that anyone will use the Deadly Weapons option unless they already have a DR bypassing eSoS or +5HBSoGLOB Cannith weapon.

The ability for artificers to grant DR-breaking is odd in that it's very good for undergeared players and rather weak for those who are well geared. If you have that perfect Cannith weapon or a fully slotted ESoS, you'd prefer a straight damage upgrade.

Make dps a non-factor for the 3 classes by equalizing their dps, crit profile included.

That would shift the difference between them to:
- Barb has the advantage of HP
- Pally has the advantage of survivability
- Fighter has the advantage of tactics

Maybe then ppl will choose the classes again for a real role.

Unfortunately, that breakdown is mostly false.

Paladins are more survivable when soloing and against certain monsters. If the paladin or fighter has focused on AC they may be more survivable in certain encounters/quests than anyone else.

Barbarians are generally more survivable vs. big spike damage and tend to have equal or better tactics DCs. Fighters have a slight advantage in that they can afford the feats, but a barbarian using Trip probably has as good or better DC than a fighter using Improved Trip.

[Seikojin]

So instead of saying help pallys, you say nerf artys? That doesn't make any real sense.

I think Pallys should flat out do more damage against evil alignments. I don't see any real issues with pallys, but I haven't capped min yet, so I dunno how it performs endgame. COuld try on lam though... 1000 exp really helps test balance out.

[Ravoc-DDO]

...

all mentioned above is about survivability and u pointed some defensive pros of barb and fighter but didnt say anything specific about paladins which suggest that u never played one or u simply dont want them to be balanced imo

i see no reason why paladins shouldnt be allowed to have good situational dps compared to barbs and fighters

I think you misunderstood my post. In the context of this thread, I did imply to boost pally dps.

About survivability, my pally is a splashed one (so much for capstone, always considered it inferior anyway). But it has evasion with max reflex save and can self heal for 500-600 from blue bar. My main issues are the difficulty of reaching 600hp and a lower dps compared to fighters & barbarians.

[Nodoze]

Stop the QQ people. Especially you, OP.

Artificers have a lot of great things to bring to the table, and one of them just happens to help break enemy DR. Get over it. ...
Are you that insecure about your other characters?
... Gimme a break.
There is nothing wrong with our characters getting stronger...
It's fine, QQ less.

Caseas, I find your comments unhelpful and dismissive of people's real concerns. This change concerns the **** out of me because at least 3 of our static group of 6 love Paladins and 4 of us play them...

I agree with MadMatt & the OP that this makes Paladins appear even more lack-luster and even more bottom of the barrel... As this and other threads show, many people already considered Paladins pretty situational before and now even those situations aren't unique and don't set them apart...

My perspective may be different than others as my group has played D&D since the 70s and of all the classes we would agree that Paladins are a signature class that should be above others against Evil... I understand that there is a lot of evil in the game so it would be OP and making it a little more limited make sense but it seems to me that they are even taking those situational chances to shine away from Paladins...

Many of us prefer to play Paladins and that is the main (for some the only) reason we are on DDO. For example, one of my best friend's account only has 1 character (his Paladin) and for 3 of us our favorite class is with out a doubt Paladins.

Frankly he called me awhile back thinking of quiting our group because he felt he wasn't contributing and holding his own as we leveled into the higher levels. His AC was no longer a major factor and thankfully I had an answer by helping him respec to TWF dual kopesh KoTC. I know that he will still lack compared to the generic DPS classes against the majorty of the content but I was glad that he could always shine once in awhile.

I don't mind being the main party cleric healer/caster as we sometimes switch to our Alts and another buddy heals while I play my Paladin.

If they let this change go live I surely hope they do something to boost Paladins as I will likely stop playing if our party falls apart due to people feeling like they can't contribute by at least holding their own at least situationally when playing the class they want to play...

[grgurius]

Sry if this was already stated, i mostly skimed through this thread, but whats the duration and cooldown of artyes weapon augments?

[oradafu]

The silver weapons thing isnt that big a deal ... most peopel already have drbreakers for there classes.

I agree monks and palidans and any sword and board are the biggest issues in the post update 11 era of DDO ... but that is mainly cause AC is worthless in todays game.

What i dont like is artificers come in and there are already what 6 named rune arms? monks have been around for what 3 years now ... and we have 1 set of epic wraps ... no greensteel ... and two other named wraps one that sucks major (the new one from the new quest chain in 12) and the other that never drops in a quest that is hard to repeat without a door opener.

I understand the plight of the monk with handwraps, but there are more than three named handwraps in the game. There's Devotion, Devout Handwraps, Eternal Rest, Fanged Wraps, Fernian Wraps, Skin of the Mockery, Unstable Handwraps, and Weeping Handwraps. Additionally, there are three different "starter" wraps; the Stonedust Handwraps with four different upgrade version; and the five different levels of the Wraps of Endless Light.

The wraps have a leg up on the Runearms since it appears that randomly generated Runearms don't exist. So there had to be more than two or three Runearm weapons added to the game. Now Dwarven Axes got the short end of the stick with only two named items: Sever and the Axe of Famine...but that's a different discussion for a different thread...

===

As for the thread, I do think that the the Artificer does hurt the Paladin's uniqueness. I don't think the Artificer should be nerfed. I'd rather see Paladins get a boost somehow. Since this affects the Capstone more than anything, I always felt that the Capstone should have included True Law damage, in addition to the Good damage. Paladins must be Lawful Good, so the addition of Lawful damage just proper.

[NaturalHazard]

/signed

. Again its all about Balancing.

!!!!!!

Balancing in DDO?

Is that some kind of myth?

[NaturalHazard]

barb increased hp increases his survivability - there is a reason why they always tank and paladins are not even asked to do that and dont forget about natural DR of barbs

pally has advantage of suvivability - not greater than other classes, they have low str and easily get knocked down. thats what i hate about it the most, cause u cant self heal while lying on ground... u say high saves, yea but no evasion like rangers and will save is pointless anyway cause u have fom... hp isnt that great either uhm so yea they are better in some situations but u can say that about fighter and barb too - especialy in quest full of tripping mobs like worgs and wolves

fighter has better trip and sometimes stunning blow, doesnt get knocked down that easily, has higher hp than paladins due to multiple toughness feat and more starting con

all mentioned above is about survivability and u pointed some defensive pros of barb and fighter but didnt say anything specific about paladins which suggest that u never played one or u simply dont want them to be balanced imo

i see no reason why paladins shouldnt be allowed to have good situational dps compared to barbs and fighters

um excuse me? barbs always tank and paladins are not asked to tank? If geared right and built right paladins make better tanks than 90% of the barbs out there.

Tanking is not all about hp. paladins can hit the AC needed to AC tank in norm/hard/elite TOD and be kept up with heal scrolls or even less. They have no trouble generating hate.

Tanking isnt always about HP theres these things called healing amp, saves, and armour class, have you heard about them? They can be useful for tanking as well. Add to the fact that the paladin has his LOH and his own heals if needed he can make a more survivable tank, as well as his higher saves.

Barberians are always the ones *best suited to tank* and the ones always asked?

I have seen nearly every class in the game atm tank in this game, and im not talking about tempest spine and reavers fate. Im talking about all difficutlies of vod, tod, epic chrono and epic DA.

[Claymorep]

All said.

The problem is that while a barbarian do massive dps, a pally have to choose the dps way OR the tank way. I'm with You that a builded tank is better than a casual tank (I too near seen any kind of tank in every quest), but this game has eveolved in all-dps way and if You choose a tank way there is no spot for you except in some quests, while a dps with massive hp can play a tank role (and forced to do so cause the line taken by this game).
A pally that will choose a dps line have to say bye bye to so many aspects of pally that is no more use to play a pally as someone will be better with less effort. Something this game have in common with D&D is specialization. You have to specialize in something and all 4 dps classes:
barby, fighter, pally and rangy had dps and respectively dr and hp, tactics, saves and selfhealing, speed and evasion.
We lost rangers a lot of time ago and lost a part of pallies capabilities after necro when we discovered ac means nothing anymore...
Now we are losing definetely pallies too as no real role left to them except as tanks.
I don't know where You play but on my server in endgame I want to surprise You saying 2 pally tanks left... Said 2 only cause I know only one but I play during day in EU so I hope there is another
And that pally is taken out of box only for those 2 raids it is good to have a real tank...

After near 2 years of efforts in building my pally as dps (not full as I lose 5% from a specced dps pally), but able to be real selfhealer (not only 4 lays), selfbuffer, great survivor and a bit tank if necessary... a sort of jolly for every situation, I don't want to wake up in a new world in which I have to spec completely in dps and play like a barb with the stress of a pally starved in stats, feats, ap, slots and something more and anyway not be able to sustain a dps role and with less hp...
If I have to do this I don't play my pally anymore and better I build something else.