artificers and paladins in u11

[LiquidShadow]

Of course it can be good to keep that tank with eSoS get that buff, but I don't see posibility to cast this on whole party.

thats what i meant when i said it would be ok if it worked like fvs and his crown of retribution but making it last not long - lets say 1-3 minutes is not a bad idea either. in the end u dont need to buff 12 ppl with that but about 6-8 and thats not big deal unless cooldown is huge... oh hey thats another option

[esheep]

It is an interesting problem... As someone whose first toon was a paladin, I have one suggestion:

Make the cooldown equal to the duration (5 min for both sounds ok), and possibly not affected by extend... (that would need to be tested...)

This way, the artificer can boost his DPS... or someone else's. If they have extend, they can have at most 2 people bypassing silver at once... but that might require play testing for balance.

I think it's a mistake to let one class buff everyone in such a fashion that it negates a sought-after paladin ability and allows the rest of the party to use whatever random weapon to bypass DR -- if you're going to allow that, why not just remove DR from mobs/the game?

[ReaperAlexEU]

quit forum and play game LOL

wow, way to alienate your self...

the way i read this a newbie without a DR breaker can ask for the spell to help break DR, any one who has a DR breaker can ask for a spell to boost DPS. so the new spells are not going to break the paly.

as for the paly in general, maybe it is due another buff, but update 11 is not in any way breaking them.

the sky isnt falling, there might be an argument to say its fallen, i certainly wouldnt say no to a buff to my paly, a few choices in cap stone would be welcome, but update 11 isnt breaking any thing for the paly.

[Uska]

I have 2 comments:

1) Pallys don't need the silver, they can have a damage augmentation instead.

2) What do all those people do if there ISN'T an artificier on the raid?

how many people actually have a ESoS

[Yalina]

how many people actually have a ESoS

A lot of. (More than you think about.)

[sephiroth1084]

the whole topic is about: every melee gets huge bonus from artificer and paladins gets half of that which makes the dps gap between those classes even greater. its not about deleting some spells... oh yea and i forgot about new dmg boost mostly for barbarians LOL

How much is everyone actually getting? Who is everyone?

Anyone well geared enough to have DR breakers won't care about the artificer's ability to boost their weapons in that way most of the time (and, and there are plenty of non-ESoS DR breakers that are far more common). Meanwhile, paladins are free to gain Deadly Weapons or whatever other bonus is more appropriate for the fight.

Now that fighters are a 2nd tier dps class compared to barbs it think it would be appropriate that paladins be brought up close to current fighter levels (I think fighters should then receive a buff to at least compete with barbs in the furture but thats another topic). Overall both fighters and paladins do have about +20 damage, but the paladin spends 3 times as long buffing, can have their buffs dispelled, is limited to evil targets, and misses alot more, which equates to alot of lost dps in many situations even when the overall damage is roughly equal. Averaged over a reasonable amount of time, the combined smite/DS crits is roughly equal to the fighters +1 crit range/seeker so those factors can be roughly ignored. Which leaves the biggest difference as fighter haste boost vs paladins missing more often (roughly 15-20% dps when hitting, and easily up to 30% dps when to hit is a factor).

Changing DM to the same percentage increase as damage boost would give most paladins a 5-10% increase in dps, which would at least make up part of the difference haste boost makes (which is ok since a paladin can keep DM going much longer). I'd also like to see smiting changed to benefit all weapons equally. The removal of auto crits was done for exactly this reason, but has had the opposite effect on paladins since previously paladins could use low crit range weapons on held mobs to roughly the same effect as high crit range weapons.
Perhaps make smites automatically crit but have the multiplier increase limited to 19-20. On average, I think that would be a small increase in damage (fewer massive 1000+ damage crits, but always a significant amount of damage). This would also benefit low crit range weapons more then high crit range weapons, to balance against the opposite effect of divine sacrifices which benefit high crit range weapons.

Not sure how I feel about smite being an auto-crit.

The to hit issue really cant be ignored either, but im not sure how to address that.... (maybe add +1 to hit per tier on DM?)

Could un-errata Divine Favor to +1/3 levels, uncapped ending at +6/+6 at level 18... It made some sense for PnP when the change was made, and was reasonable for DDO when it came down the pipe, but D&D 3.5 is basically non-existent now, and DDO's bonuses have surges and evolved considerably.

[Hollowgolem]

I think you should all take a step back and consider all of the false equivalences that have been getting drawn in this thread.

Paladins aren't that bad if you know what you're getting with them.

If you want them to be barbarians, you're doing it wrong.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Actually as a paladin, I am looking forward to an artificer casting 'silver weapon' on my triple positives.

Wholeheartedly agree Paladins do need a quick revision again as KotC is very restrictive.

[Hollowgolem]

Pallies have two other prestiges. Hunter of the Dead is great in a number of situations, not all of them involving undead (For instance, you get tier 2 while leveling just in time for Invaders, Dreams of Insanity, and the Madness chains.), and who doesn't love a (admittedly gear-hungry) Knight of the Chalice tank who can self-heal and rock crazy DPS on the things he needs to tank?

Also, remember that now, a Pally can pick up a +5 Shocking Burst Greataxe of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane, and with Capstone+Artie silver enhancement, wreck some devil-boss face.

[simo0208]

Why are people talking about fixing paladins? It's not happening in update 11 and I'm guessing it's not happening in update 12 or even soon after that. A lot bigger problems out there than min/maxing paladins.

[maddmatt70]

I agree with you OP and yes this is one of the first things I thought about when I saw the artificer's spell list yet another nerf to pallys. I do not understand why they could not make the artificer spell a +2 crit multiplier which does not stack with the barbarian crit multiplier for frenzy berzerker or a +8 strength modifier which does not stack with the kensai power surge but instead nerfed pallys. Totally weaksauce on the part of the devs for not coming up with another class to nerf because pallys are most definitely at the bottom of the barrel.

[redwolf51]

i'm some what a noob so i might be wrong but pally=tank, fighter=abit of everything, barb=dps. the classes don't have to follow that path but it is they role in most games,movies,and etc

[maddmatt70]

i'm some what a noob so i might be wrong but pally=tank, fighter=abit of everything, barb=dps. the classes don't have to follow that path but it is they role in most games,movies,and etc

This game is about dps. if you do less dps you are not worthy basically.

[Culver.Civello]

Has anyone seen the amount of SP an Artificer gets? That tagged along with all the spells they have, I really don't think I'm interested in buffing a whole raid group with a spell that will be half off it's timer by the time I get everyone buffed. No Thank you. If you ask nicely.. sure you can have it if I feel I can spare the SP, but if you die cause you didn't have that silver augmentation to your weapon... then say hello to my backpack. You can sit there for the rest of the quest... and I really don't think I'll be the only person to take that perspective. So in all... I don't see the need to nerf the augmentations. It is a nice thing to have, sure. Not really a game breaker though in any aspect. Paladins will do just fine. Paladins can selfheal, tank, do pretty good dps and get all sorts of buffs as well. To say you want another class nerfed because you feel a bit intimidated(lolz pun), then you probably need to step away from the game for a bit and cool down. Everything will be fine. I love my Monk personally... and will still continue to play him. If the Arty is passing out augments then shoot... I'll take one of whatever if it works. I don't care and I'm not sweating it either way. If anything... Arty just helps newer players out that don't already have good equipment. For someone who has been playing a while and has lots of nice gear, I wouldn't even worry about it.

[Rheebus]

There are lots of good Pallys on Ghallanda. I don't have one myself, but the guildies with PAlladins sure seem to dish out the pain. I am not sure where all this Pallys are GIMPS talk is coming from.

The only thing this changes in my opinion is having the option, sometimes, to use a different weapon on a boss than you would normally do when you have an artificer in the group. Diversity. Yea.

Palladins will be able to use ANY WEAPON on a boss if they have a friendly artificer in the party. Weapons of Good + Silver Weapons + ANY WEAPON = boss beater. I can imagine some amazing combinations!

[Caseas]

Why are people talking about fixing paladins? It's not happening in update 11 and I'm guessing it's not happening in update 12 or even soon after that. A lot bigger problems out there than min/maxing paladins.

Quoted for truth. Bigger fish to fry, people.

[EufretDemias]

i'm some what a noob so i might be wrong but pally=tank, fighter=abit of everything, barb=dps. the classes don't have to follow that path but it is they role in most games,movies,and etc

Paladin's = tank? Um.. yes and no. not really. Any class in DDO can be a tank in the traditional MMO context, it all depends on gear, buffs, and enhancements. I've seen WF Sorc's and Sorc/melee hybrids tank VoD, I've seen pure Monks tank, I've seen Barbarians tank and I've seen Divine Casters tank and my Cleric has tanked a few quests while leveling and even a couple raids (Reavers Fate and Shroud BEFORE Harry moved around), I've seen other PURE divine and arcane casters tank as well.. heck I've even seen and I'm currently working on a Rogue Acrobat/Monk Ninjaspy AC tank. I've never ran ToD because after dealing with Devils in Shroud/Sub and Devil's Assault packs I got sick or tired bored of fighting them. Sorry but I don't feel like flaggin for another long dragged out Devil beatdown.

My capped Pally is still not completely gear'd but is built as a Falchion THF dps/burst DPS and focuses on Crit's due to the increased crit range and multipler that Pally's get from Divine Sac and Divine Smite. She will never be a true tank unless I spend the time/plat on gear. It is true thats Pally's are more self sufficent then your average fighter or barbarian, but due to multiple atribute defincincy syndrome (aka MADS), a first life Pally most likely will be behind the other full BAB classes on the DPS table, most then likely even behind well built 3/4 BAB's (rogues and most non finesse monks). Saddly, DPS and damage absorbtion (HP/DR) are the biggest/most important things in this game. True there are some truly amazing end game AC tanks but they are few and far between. Most are high HP tanks, read as damage absorption tanks.

Truth be told the only thing different between all capped KotC Paladins is where they spent a few AP and a feat or 2 depending on race, mine has Cleave instead of Greater Two Handed Fighting, and Improved Intimate II to help her pull Trash Mob hate off of squishier casters in VoD. Pally's need some loving on the AP cost side of things, like all non arcane classes. I think it's total bull carp that the spell damage lines only cost 1 AP per teir but the Life Magic and Cleric/FvS Smiting lines do not. I agree that the change was needed to make Arcane's more fun instead of buff/firewall bots, but Paladins have to spend 10 AP EACH to max Divine Smite and Extra Smite Evil at only lvl 4. That's 20 AP really for one thing since extra Smite Evil's adds more Exhalted Smites and who in the hell uses a normal Smite once they can take Exhalted Smite.

Lesser AP costs on things thats are pretty much required for any class to do decent damage or be truly viable, be it divine/exhalted smites, divine smiting/healing lines, rages, crits/SA, or what ever fighters get/use (never lvl'd a pure fighter sorry) is needed across the board I feel to match the OP that most Arcane's can get nowadays. Plus it will add to the customization of characters the Dungeons and Dragons embodies. All my AA Bardcher and most other ranged DPS needs is an increased rate of fire which she/they are getting from the looks of things in the preview of U11. When an Arcane can yawn while soloing Epic quests that most non arcanes cannot solo then there is problem with either class balance or the quest design.. maybe both.

AS for ESoS..
My Pally is another on in a LONG line of toons waiting for their ESoS, so any discussion including that holy grail is moot to me. I've met Wizards and Favored Souls working on that weapon simply becuase currently nothing can touch it for non spell DPS. Plus from the sounds of things the ESoS might be getting nerfed somewhat or other Epic Weapons being bought up to it's par for damage if what 1 Dev has posted comes true.

And yes I agree there is bigger and more important things in this game to spend Dev time on then fixing 1 or 2 F2P classes. I would give Turbine more of what little money I make if they put out an update that was just fixes instead of new content I won't buy for months/years if ever.

/drunken rant FTW or For The Lose I do not care which... peace beotches.
/flame on
btw for MyDDO'ers Eufret of Argo is my Cleric and Eufet of Argo is my Pally. So feel free to look them up and smite me for being gimped.

[Claymorep]

There are lots of good Pallys on Ghallanda. I don't have one myself, but the guildies with PAlladins sure seem to dish out the pain. I am not sure where all this Pallys are GIMPS talk is coming from.

The only thing this changes in my opinion is having the option, sometimes, to use a different weapon on a boss than you would normally do when you have an artificer in the group. Diversity. Yea.

Palladins will be able to use ANY WEAPON on a boss if they have a friendly artificer in the party. Weapons of Good + Silver Weapons + ANY WEAPON = boss beater. I can imagine some amazing combinations!

If You use that type of weapons in endgame it's clear that You don't know what we are saying.
ACTUALLY a pally is 4/5% dps back vs dps builds vs external evil (and it should be a bit over them vs them) and 15-20% in other renvironments. With the changes of this update a pally will be 20% back vs externals and no way usefull in other environment.
So, if I'm a leader of a party grouping for an elite tod, an epic devil assault or an epic into the deep (just to enumerate some, but can be extended to all epic/near all raid/quest) and looking for some dps, pallies will not be my first choice (this said by me that play pallyes since 2006...).
Not to mention gimped builded pallies or tanks pallies in quests where a tank is not needed...

Conclusion? All pallyes will end in black list as battle clerics for end game. For an endgamer solo player like me with a pally as main this means that I can resonably take a pause from DDO and log sometimes to see if in U12, U13, U14... they had changed something.

I can consider the idea to reincarnate, but how to do a similar effort when I used 4 +4 tomes and 1 +3 tome in my final life as pally (and ready to use the last +3 tome I found after the big bye bye to pallyes update.

[Dendrix]

Please answer the question:
what do those 8 melees do if there isn't an artificer on the raid?

[Ravoc-DDO]

Make dps a non-factor for the 3 classes by equalizing their dps, crit profile included.

That would shift the difference between them to:
- Barb has the advantage of HP
- Pally has the advantage of survivability
- Fighter has the advantage of tactics

Maybe then ppl will choose the classes again for a real role.