Mech + insightful damage not stacking.

[rimble]

Hmmm? Insightful Damage and Insightful Strikes are separate from the weapon buff line.

You get to choose either Insightful Damage or Strikes, then you get to choose your other weapon buff (Elemental Weapon, Enhance Weapon, etc.)

This is contradictory to everything else I've heard. Please cite your source.

[rimble]

Very briefly on balance, given max STR goes to over 100 and max INT barely touches 50, a double INT MOD doesn't seem unreasonable.

That also doesn't get 6th level spells...doesn't get a Tier III PrE...etc, etc...it's not like it's free...

[Morosy]

This is contradictory to everything else I've heard. Please cite your source.

Have you not even been in game O.o ?

Will go back on quickly and see what I can do.

Can see here http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/3...shot00020l.jpg

Also helps to read description which I've got here http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2610/...shot00012h.jpg

[rimble]

Have you not even been in game O.o ?

Will go back on quickly and see what I can do.

No, I don't have enough play time to 'waste' (I hope you know what I mean by that, don't mean to sound negative) it on Lamannia. I appreciate you taking the time to verify.

[Morosy]

Went ahead and put the shots in post above. Shows that I'm getting 14 damage, first of all, which shouldn't be possible with that particular gear setup (lol I only bothered to equip a voice of the master the whole time I've been levelling) without Insightful Damage.

Also shows getting shock damage on that particular mob, which wouldn't be possible on my +2 ghost touch of lesser undead bane without Elemental Weapons.

Plus description saying it will dispel Strikes but works with other item enchantments I didn't know myself until I logged in yesterday, but it was a nice thing to see.

[rimble]

Have you not even been in game O.o ?

Will go back on quickly and see what I can do.

Can see here http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/3...shot00020l.jpg

Also helps to read description which I've got here http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2610/...shot00012h.jpg

I see, there's a distinction between Personal and General Augmentations. I didn't know that, and this description is different from what I've seen everywhere else. I appreciate the information, and this does change my opinion somewhat.

Int + Int + Deadly Weapons might be getting a bit up there...but maybe not, just theorycrafting still...

[Cyr]

I see, there's a distinction between Personal and General Augmentations. I didn't know that, and this description is different from what I've seen everywhere else. I appreciate the information, and this does change my opinion somewhat.

Int + Int + Deadly Weapons might be getting a bit up there...but maybe not, just theorycrafting still...

Maybe, but to be fair it would require splashing six levels which is a big loss on a class with so much based upon it's pure class level.

[Morosy]

I see, there's a distinction between Personal and General Augmentations. I didn't know that, and this description is different from what I've seen everywhere else. I appreciate the information, and this does change my opinion somewhat.

Int + Int + Deadly Weapons might be getting a bit up there...but maybe not, just theorycrafting still...

This is what I really wanted to do but unfortunately I had to start with a pretty high dex (17 starting) to get feats for ranged anyway so I think I can keep Dex kinda high while still pumping Int for damage and be OK.

[Chai]

I like how there is all this concern about crossbows being powerful now. Never thought Id see this on the DDO forums, LOL.

/waits for the nerf request threads "zomg ranged is too powerful!!"

Keep the popcorn and the picket sign crafting material on order fellas, this update has potential after all, heh.

[Cyr]

This is what I really wanted to do but unfortunately I had to start with a pretty high dex (17 starting) to get feats for ranged anyway so I think I can keep Dex kinda high while still pumping Int for damage and be OK.

Yeah I am trying to do the numbers here assuming that mech + insightful will not work...

dice average source
2d8 9 GS repeater base
2d8 9 PBS
2d8 9 Deadly Weapons
2d8 9 The high level rune arm from a xoriat pack presumably
7 7 enhancement bonus
12 12 Very achievable int bonus from insightful
2 2 Artificer Damage Enhancements
+GS effects

Per hit that would be 57 damage before crits and gs effects. Not too shabby for a pew pew class.

Please add corrections what not if you see mistakes which I am sure are plentiful.

[kernal42]

I'm not sure how you want "Adds int to damage" to stack with "replaces damage stat with int."

[kernal42]

Yeah I am trying to do the numbers here assuming that mech + insightful will not work...

dice average source
2d8 9 GS repeater base
2d8 9 PBS
2d8 9 Deadly Weapons
2d8 9 The high level rune arm from a xoriat pack presumably
7 7 enhancement bonus
12 12 Very achievable int bonus from insightful
2 2 Artificer Damage Enhancements
+GS effects

Per hit that would be 57 damage before crits and gs effects. Not too shabby for a pew pew class.

Please add corrections what not if you see mistakes which I am sure are plentiful.

Add in bonuses from a rune arm too.

-Kernal

[Mjesko]

This is contradictory to everything else I've heard. Please cite your source.

You cast Insightful Strikes or Insightful Damage on yourself and Elemental Weapons, ... on your weapon.

[rest]

I feel dumber for even reading and replying to it.. I'll be going now.

Funny. That's how I feel after reading anything you post.

[kernal42]

You cast Insightful Strikes or Insightful Damage on yourself and Elemental Weapons, ... on your weapon.

Wrong.

Check the screenshot in the OP: Insightful Damage is a weapon buff, not a personal buff.

-Kernal

[kernal42]

I also thought they would stack, and doubt their failure to is WAI given Eladrin's quote.

Very briefly on balance, given max STR goes to over 100 and max INT barely touches 50, a double INT MOD doesn't seem unreasonable.

This is a bad comparison: Max Str is from barbs who get most of their dps from absurdly high str, and most of that is unsustainable.

Since rogues get most (at least half) of their damage from other sources (ie sneak attack), the correct comparison is "How much str can a rogue get, and how much int can a rogue get?" The rogue can hit sustainably ~50 str or 40 int; these two are much closer than the 100/50 you refer to. Doubling int would provide far more damage than is currently available to rogues via str.

PS, Max Int is nearly 60.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Hollowgolem]

No I didn't. and I think this thread is utterly absurd, I feel dumber for even reading and replying to it.. I'll be going now.

200% ability mod to damage.. lol you guys are funny.

As opposed to 150% ability mod to damage on a two-hander, and of an ability that's much easier to get really high (Strength) than Int, and with weapons that have better crit profiles (Falchions; Okay, great crossbows get that profile as well, but are also hella slow).

[dkyle]

The rogue can hit sustainably ~50 str or 40 int; these two are much closer than the 100/50 you refer to. Doubling int would provide far more damage than is currently available to rogues via str.

If we assume (for the moment) that TWF attack rate and the xbow attack rate are the same, the TWF 50 STR gets 28 damage from STR, on average, for each attack (main hand + off hand proc), while the 40 INT gets 30 damage from INT per attack. But meanwhile, the TWF gets 180% the SA damage the xbow user gets.

Of course, that initial assumption is a big one. Right now, xbow speed on Lammania seems to be higher than melee speed. I suspect that will change. But, at least, that shows that the benefit a TWF gets from STR is similar to the benefit an xbow user would get from double INT bonus.

[Deathdefy]

About the max STR vs max INT comparison:
I honestly wasn't thinking about specific builds when making the comparison; just saying in game-terms it wasn't immediately ludicrous to have a double INT mod to damage as it's very different to doubling a STR mod to damage.

I agree fleetingly buffed max-STR barbs are the ones with the STR stat, and fleetingly buffed PM wizards are the ones with the INT stat (which you are totally right on pushing 60. I think I've seen a non-completionist SS with fifty-something quite high in achievements.)

But, I also totally agree if we're giving more than a cursory glance it should consider actually affected builds.

The boost of 10 damage per hit from the:
2xINT mod for a 40 INT (+30 damage per hit) vs the
1xSTR mod from a 50 STR(+20damage per hit) is big, but still well within reasonable bounds to my mind.

Especially for the poor rogues come U11!

I was honestly thinking more of an 14 Arty/6Rogue Mech I thing, without the SA to really max out the damage, when in retrospect a near-pure Rogue is definitely the kind of build that would make the most of a double INT mod to damage mechanism.

EDIT: I'm an idiot; of course STR pulls much closer/surpasses overall damage due to more TWF hits since it's still a Range vs Melee comparison. ^^Dkyle. Killin' it.

[rimble]

Int + Int + Deadly Weapons might be getting a bit up there...but maybe not, just theorycrafting still...

Whoops, you can't do this...14 Arti/6 Rogue doesn't get 6th level spells...

So now I'm back to they should stack...sure, some other Artificer might be able to Deadly Weapons you...but hey, that's what grouping is for...

And if they don't stack, well...I'm not feeling like Artificer is the repeater king anymore...I'd rather just go 2 levels for Insightful Strike and Rune Arms, 6 Rogue for Mechanic...then what? Kensai...? More Rogue?