Mech + insightful damage not stacking.

[Scraap]

Seems mech and insightful damage don't stack with this particular build.

Test was made with a 6/6 mechanic/arti, with the crossbow enhancements, the korthos great crossbow, repeater, and a light I grabbed out of the harbor weapons shop.

Anyone want to crosscheck?

[rimble]

I cannot fully express how sad this makes me...

[karl_k0ch]

I can't see the damage numbers in the combat log. Is it possible that it is just a display error?

[dkyle]

Yep, looks that way. If the bonus were just hidden, the 10 damage hit (8+2 blocked) in the second pic would have been impossible.

Have you put in a bug report?

[karl_k0ch]

Yep, looks that way. If the bonus were just hidden, the 10 damage hit (8+2 blocked) in the second pic would have been impossible.

Edit: You're right.

Referring to the second SS, and assuming the OP took two Crossbow Enhancements.
If ID and Mech1 would stack, the damage would be 1d8 + 4 (Int, ID) + 2 (Enhancement) + 4 (Int, Mech1), allowing values between 11 and 18.

If one of the bonuses would not be appied, a damage range of 7 to 14 would be possible.



The third attack in the second SS shows the following: You hit for 13 after 2 where blocked by DR, i.e. a total damage of 15. This would not be possible via 1d8 + 6 damage, provided it is not a critical hit. Edit: but it is possible via Point Blank Shot range.

OP, could you state your enhancements and the fortification of your target (which I think is 100%).

[rimble]

Acutally, no.

Referring to the second SS, and assuming the OP took two Crossbow Enhancements.
If ID and Mech1 would stack, the damage would be 1d8 + 4 (Int, ID) + 2 (Enhancement) + 4 (Int, Mech1), allowing values between 11 and 18. The fact that 10 damage were dealt shows that there is something wrotten in the state of Stormreach.

One must wonder if Point Blank Shot is also in play...need more info/better testing...

[Scraap]

One must wonder if Point Blank Shot is also in play...need more info/better testing...

First shot was in the bottom of the lobster, so a possibility. Second shot was at the top at two opposing corners, so unlikely.

[Shade]

um what?

You were expecting this combo to double your int mod and add it to damage?

lol really? .. Ever heard of CRAZY OVERPOWERED?. And yea Eladrin already addresed this.

I mean any kind of damage mod on a crossbow at all is a rather powerful ability.

Should still be a good build for insightful STRIKES + mechanic 1.. Give you int to damage and attack.

[karl_k0ch]

um what?

You were expecting this combo to double your int mod and add it to damage?

lol really? .. Ever heard of CRAZY OVERPOWERED?. And yea Eladrin already addresed this.

I mean any kind of damage mod on a crossbow at all is a rather powerful ability.

Should still be a good build for insightful STRIKES + mechanic 1.. Give you int to damage and attack.

Yes, one is expecting this when reading the description of the spell/feat.
Can you back up this claim with a quote?

Shade, did you just say that Rogue Mechanics are rather powerful?

[Scraap]

um what?

You were expecting this combo to double your int mod and add it to damage?

lol really? .. Ever heard of CRAZY OVERPOWERED?. And yea Eladrin already addresed this.

Yeah. He did.

There are some differences between the two. Artificers can replace the to-hit or damage stat on a weapon. Mechanics get to add their Intelligence to damage with crossbows. These are different enough that they stack.

[Shade]

Shade, did you just say that Rogue Mechanics are rather powerful?

No I didn't. and I think this thread is utterly absurd, I feel dumber for even reading and replying to it.. I'll be going now.

200% ability mod to damage.. lol you guys are funny.

[rimble]

Yeah. He did.

Yeah, that Eladrin quote...I mean, without that comment I would have read them to act separately...

Since Repeaters don't have a damage stat, you need to be Mechanic I to add Int to it. Ok, no problem. So that means Insightful Damage is useful for replacing the Damage stat on melee weapons. That's cool, that's nice, I'll use it on my Artificer to Bludgeon/Slash things sometimes, but in no way implies any sort of stacking.

By adding that little 'These are different enough that they stack' it suddenly implies that Insightful Damage SHOULD work with crossbows, and SHOULD stack with Mechanic I.

So, some WAI clarification would be nice.

Even if they DO stack, by using Insightful Damage you're not using Deadly Weapons or whatever else is out there. Last I read that spell is intended to double your base damage dice I think...so a 2d8 Repeater is 4d8...an average of +9 damage? 3d8 Great Crossbow is 6d8, so +13.5 there. Using Insightful Damage instead would be a little more than that (less in the case of Great Crossbow obviously), but not some earth-shattering difference.

Heaven forbid the non Dwarf-Barbarians get something-something.

[karl_k0ch]

200% ability mod to damage.. lol you guys are funny.

It's not that unbalanced as it would be for a melee weapon which gets 2*Str-Mod as a damage mod, actually.

As a start, note that it's considered to be perfectly balanced if a Weapon gets 1.5*Mod as a damage bonus, namely all Two-handed weapons.

The main reason is the following: Applying ID to your Crossbow means that you cannot apply IS, which brings Crossbows to the situation to have different stats for attack and damage, similarly to Finessed Weapons. So even if the weapon gets a damage bonus of 2*Intmod, you will still need a second Stat for the hits to land.

A secondary reason is the following: As long there are no ID scrolls in vendors or clickies, this special bonus is only available with a specific class split or group composition. If self-sustained, it needs some Rogue and Artificer Levels which are too many to get the essential ranged feats PS and IPS via 11 Ranger levels for free. So a essential investment in Dex is required to get those, which emphasises the previously discussed MAD problem.

[dkyle]

Acutally, not quite.

Referring to the second SS, and assuming the OP took two Crossbow Enhancements.
If ID and Mech1 would stack, the damage would be 1d8 + 4 (Int, ID) + 2 (Enhancement) + 4 (Int, Mech1), allowing values between 11 and 18.

And yet, as I pointed out, there is a hit of 10. This would be impossible if there were a hidden +4 damage. Therefore, there is none. Either ID or Mech1 is not being applied.

The third attack in the second SS shows the following: You hit for 13 after 2 where blocked by DR, i.e. a total damage of 15. This would not be possible via 1d8 + 6 damage, provided it is not a critical hit.

Point Blank Shot makes it possible. But it's irrelevant. The issue was settled by the hit of 10.

A secondary reason is the following: As long there are no ID scrolls in vendors or clickies, this special bonus is only available with a specific class split or group composition

Even if scrolls are readily available, they couldn't be applied to a crossbow. You can't hold both at the same time, and the spell is self-only.

[karl_k0ch]

And yet, as I pointed out, there is a hit of 10. This would be impossible if there were a hidden +4 damage. Therefore, there is none. Either ID or Mech1 is not being applied.

I forgot PBS. I rest my case.

[NeutronStar]

No I didn't. and I think this thread is utterly absurd, I feel dumber for even reading and replying to it.. I'll be going now.

200% ability mod to damage.. lol you guys are funny.

I noticed you didn't actually address this, so I'll re-point it out for you:

There are some differences between the two. Artificers can replace the to-hit or damage stat on a weapon. Mechanics get to add their Intelligence to damage with crossbows. These are different enough that they stack.

[Cyr]

um what?

You were expecting this combo to double your int mod and add it to damage?

lol really? .. Ever heard of CRAZY OVERPOWERED?. And yea Eladrin already addresed this.

I mean any kind of damage mod on a crossbow at all is a rather powerful ability.

Should still be a good build for insightful STRIKES + mechanic 1.. Give you int to damage and attack.

Yes he did address it. He said that they should stack.

[Mjesko]

It's not that unbalanced as it would be for a melee weapon which gets 2*Str-Mod as a damage mod, actually.

As a start, note that it's considered to be perfectly balanced if a Weapon gets 1.5*Mod as a damage bonus, namely all Two-handed weapons.

The main reason is the following: Applying ID to your Crossbow means that you cannot apply IS, which brings Crossbows to the situation to have different stats for attack and damage, similarly to Finessed Weapons. So even if the weapon gets a damage bonus of 2*Intmod, you will still need a second Stat for the hits to land.

A secondary reason is the following: As long there are no ID scrolls in vendors or clickies, this special bonus is only available with a specific class split or group composition. If self-sustained, it needs some Rogue and Artificer Levels which are too many to get the essential ranged feats PS and IPS via 11 Ranger levels for free. So a essential investment in Dex is required to get those, which emphasises the previously discussed MAD problem.

Exactly and melee weapons have Power Attack, which increases the damage by at least 5 points, and to get +Int x 2 damage you need 6 Rogue levels.

[Morosy]

Yeah, that Eladrin quote...I mean, without that comment I would have read them to act separately...

Since Repeaters don't have a damage stat, you need to be Mechanic I to add Int to it. Ok, no problem. So that means Insightful Damage is useful for replacing the Damage stat on melee weapons. That's cool, that's nice, I'll use it on my Artificer to Bludgeon/Slash things sometimes, but in no way implies any sort of stacking.

By adding that little 'These are different enough that they stack' it suddenly implies that Insightful Damage SHOULD work with crossbows, and SHOULD stack with Mechanic I.

So, some WAI clarification would be nice.

Even if they DO stack, by using Insightful Damage you're not using Deadly Weapons or whatever else is out there. Last I read that spell is intended to double your base damage dice I think...so a 2d8 Repeater is 4d8...an average of +9 damage? 3d8 Great Crossbow is 6d8, so +13.5 there. Using Insightful Damage instead would be a little more than that (less in the case of Great Crossbow obviously), but not some earth-shattering difference.

Heaven forbid the non Dwarf-Barbarians get something-something.

Hmmm? Insightful Damage and Insightful Strikes are separate from the weapon buff line.

You get to choose either Insightful Damage or Strikes, then you get to choose your other weapon buff (Elemental Weapon, Enhance Weapon, etc.)

[Deathdefy]

I also thought they would stack, and doubt their failure to is WAI given Eladrin's quote.

Very briefly on balance, given max STR goes to over 100 and max INT barely touches 50, a double INT MOD doesn't seem unreasonable.