Epic Shroud! +6 Exquisite Xbow

[Auran82]

Your theory might work..

Except for the fact epic was release long after the game went F2P and turbine sent out there "Turbine proves F2P can work and made millions" press release.

more then 2 months later to be exact. (F2P = mod9, epic = u1)

All we need to know is 3 things:

1. The game wasn't dying.
2. Every bit of the game doesn't need to be every one.
3. Madfloyd is awesome.

Fair point, for some reason I forgot that epic came out just after release of EU.

In that case, I still think they never though the game would take off as it did when it went free to play, and I also think they never thought that so many of the 'Vets' from before EU would actually stick around.

So Epic was put in as a stopgap until they worked out what they wanted for endgame and was probably never meant to be the be all and end all of end game (just look at the initial implementation, and no offence to whoever made the first lot of epic items, but alot of them were absolutely terrible and might as well have been invented with a dartboard, I'm pretty sure I was the first person to make an epic staff of arcane power, what a dissapointment that was)

The game has significantly improved since EU which you can see in the quality of quests lately, I hope they have lots of plans for 'Epic' which they will share with us at some point.

Personally I think we might end up seeing something like the cove challenge level system, just with a better implementation and scaling.

[MadFloyd]

With sarcasm aside, I sure wish we knew what it is you're getting on with regard to furthering character progression.

At the risk of sounding completely lame, one day you will find out.

[SableShadow]

At the risk of sounding completely lame, one day you will find out.

Well...

...ok...

... but say "vast and mysterious" at your own peril, and at the peril of many and various small, cute, furry animals I will be driving by on my way home ...

[MadFloyd]

Personally I think we might end up seeing something like the cove challenge level system, just with a better implementation and scaling.

If you're referring to 'dial in your preferred challenge level' I think we might end up with this too, but we don't have it all sorted out yet.

[Auran82]

If you're referring to 'dial in your preferred challenge level' I think we might end up with this too, but we don't have it all sorted out yet.

One of the main issues I have with how Epic is handled (other than the sometimes crazy drop rates) is the fact it is one difficulty, where the rest of the game is spread over 3 (well, 4 now) difficulties.

Only think I beg though, please have the scaling work a little better than the crystal cove challenge system

[Cetus]

At the risk of sounding completely lame, one day you will find out.

Well, I appreciate the response regardless =D

P.S.- I sent in a small request in the form of a PM. please respond as I won't be able to play for the next week.

[MadFloyd]

One of the main issues I have with how Epic is handled (other than the sometimes crazy drop rates) is the fact it is one difficulty, where the rest of the game is spread over 3 (well, 4 now) difficulties.

Only think I beg though, please have the scaling work a little better than the crystal cove challenge system

I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

[sirgog]

I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

IMO the main issues:

1 - Scroll/Shard/Seal system makes sure that there's no rewards for the first ~10 runs of most Epics - contrast to ToD where you'll get a ring that's an upgrade likely within 5 runs (then your perfect ring hundreds of runs later...)
2 - Most of the hardest encounters have low/no loot rewards (here's looking at you, Spies in the House and Fathom/Claw optionals)
3 - The lack of anything that's so hard, noone beats it on release day. Didn't it take 2-3 months for anyone to beat Elite VON6?

Here's some suggestions I wrote up about a year ago (pre U9) - http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=272917 - the main change I'd make to them now is to give mobs a blanket immunity to area of effect death spells (while letting the single-target ones continue working).


I for one would not still be playing if we'd not had Epic difficulty. And I know a fair number of guildies have stopped playing in the long endgame drought since Chronoscope came out, because nothing since has been both challenging and rewarding enough to warrant multiple runs.

[NytCrawlr]

A magically altered Deathclaw?

Heh, never played Fallout, but it certainly looks close.

The beastie is called a Tarrasque in D&D.

[NytCrawlr]

I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

I played at level 8 alot, mainly because my main was 8th at the time, and I don't know if it was due to group dynamics or what, but I could never get in a group for a total completion, would always complete it, but not get all the gems, though would get close.

Got even closer on 7th the few times I tried with a group...9 on the other hand, wow that was a rough jump.

But yeah, if the level cap is going to be raised, then this would be the best route to go instead of picking - Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite, Epic, Very Epic, So Epic It Hurts, etc.

I will certainly give better feedback once the Cove comes back and will pay more attention to the scaling, but yeah, it certainly seemed off.

[Kielbasa]

Well I for one really loved the way crystal cove works. I'm talking about loot rewards here. You have a base item that isn't too ridiculous to get and then multiple item tiers/crafting slots which are exponentially more difficult to craft. Can something like this be done for epic loot? A base level 20 item that is an improvement for most people just starting epics and then tiered item bonuses/tiered crafting slots that let you tailor that item towards your specific character such as was on the pirate hats. I think this would make more epic loot viable rather than just trash because there would be more customization available. A system similar to the one in crystal cove would be easier for the player to at least see/feel a more steady gear progression than farming hopelessly for that one rare shard, seal, or scroll. It also would put less pressure on Genasi to individually tweak every epic item when people are unhappy with them. The player can tweak their own gear to fit their needs.

[sirgog]

Well I for one really loved the way crystal cove works. I'm talking about loot rewards here. You have a base item that isn't too ridiculous to get and then multiple item tiers/crafting slots which are exponentially more difficult to craft. Can something like this be done for epic loot? A base level 20 item that is an improvement for most people just starting epics and then tiered item bonuses/tiered crafting slots that let you tailor that item towards your specific character such as was on the pirate hats. I think this would make more epic loot viable rather than just trash because there would be more customization available. A system similar to the one in crystal cove would be easier for the player to at least see/feel a more steady gear progression than farming hopelessly for that one rare shard, seal, or scroll. It also would put less pressure on Genasi to individually tweak every epic item when people are unhappy with them. The player can tweak their own gear to fit their needs.

Something related to the Cove system could work well too, although I hate the Cove's approach of 'run an easy quest once to get base item, run the same easy quest a dozen times to get the real version of it'. Running Cove 25 at level 20 was just mindnumbingly boring - if you don't wipe in a quest when you are all drunk, there's something wrong. (Tested).

I'd rather something like turn in 5 Epic Tokens for a 'blank' Epic weapon (+6, 4d6, 19-20/x2 Greatsword, Red Slot). You then chase specific improvements to that item - the more impressive the upgrade, the harder the quests you need to run.

Then if you want to add Epic Flaming Burst (Hit: 4d6 fire damage Crit: 4d10 fire damage) you add 10 BtA tokens from the Epic Demon of the Frenzied Blood. If you'd prefer to add Epic Undead Bane, you need 10 BtA tokens from Epic Raiyum.

But if those two encounters are too difficult for you to complete, you could instead add a less powerful effect - say "Augmented Base Damage - Two Step Increase" by running eVON1 ten times. Or Incineration by killing Garos ten times.


Edit - oh and for clarity, one upgrade per item.

[NytCrawlr]

A system similar to the one in crystal cove would be easier for the player to at least see/feel a more steady gear progression than farming hopelessly for that one rare shard, seal, or scroll. It also would put less pressure on Genasi to individually tweak every epic item when people are unhappy with them. The player can tweak their own gear to fit their needs.

Yep!

I think this is perfect. I wanted Cannith Crafting to be like this.

[Kielbasa]

Something related to the Cove system could work well too, although I hate the Cove's approach of 'run an easy quest once to get base item, run the same easy quest a dozen times to get the real version of it'. Running Cove 25 at level 20 was just mindnumbingly boring - if you don't wipe in a quest when you are all drunk, there's something wrong. (Tested).

I'd rather something like turn in 5 Epic Tokens for a 'blank' Epic weapon (+6, 4d6, 19-20/x2 Greatsword, Red Slot). You then chase specific improvements to that item - the more impressive the upgrade, the harder the quests you need to run.

Then if you want to add Epic Flaming Burst (Hit: 4d6 fire damage Crit: 4d10 fire damage) you add 10 BtA tokens from the Epic Demon of the Frenzied Blood. If you'd prefer to add Epic Undead Bane, you need 10 BtA tokens from Epic Raiyum.

But if those two encounters are too difficult for you to complete, you could instead add a less powerful effect - say "Augmented Base Damage - Two Step Increase" by running eVON1 ten times. Or Incineration by killing Garos ten times.


Edit - oh and for clarity, one upgrade per item.

Yeah I can see that working. The casual player can go for the lesser effects and the hardcore players can go for the greater ones. And eventually using the lesser effects the casual player might just get some of the greater effects/bonuses as well.

Oh and some people really enjoy herding mindless kobolds. They are just so darned cute when they see a crystal or run for their lives from danger.

[oradafu]

Something related to the Cove system could work well too, although I hate the Cove's approach of 'run an easy quest once to get base item, run the same easy quest a dozen times to get the real version of it'. Running Cove 25 at level 20 was just mindnumbingly boring - if you don't wipe in a quest when you are all drunk, there's something wrong. (Tested).

I'd rather something like turn in 5 Epic Tokens for a 'blank' Epic weapon (+6, 4d6, 19-20/x2 Greatsword, Red Slot). You then chase specific improvements to that item - the more impressive the upgrade, the harder the quests you need to run.

Then if you want to add Epic Flaming Burst (Hit: 4d6 fire damage Crit: 4d10 fire damage) you add 10 BtA tokens from the Epic Demon of the Frenzied Blood. If you'd prefer to add Epic Undead Bane, you need 10 BtA tokens from Epic Raiyum.

But if those two encounters are too difficult for you to complete, you could instead add a less powerful effect - say "Augmented Base Damage - Two Step Increase" by running eVON1 ten times. Or Incineration by killing Garos ten times.


Edit - oh and for clarity, one upgrade per item.

The ToD rings should have been something similar. It should have been a base Ring that either dropped in chest or purchased with a certain number of trophies. The Base Ring would be taken to an Altar so the player could pick which +6 Stat and Prestige Class enhancement they wanted on the ring. Then the player could add the Incredible Potential to the ring.

This wouldn't have made the extremely lame rings any better (that's a different problem all together), but this would have prevented alot of drama over the two or three rings everyone wants.

[rendet]

I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

At the very least have varying epic difficulties that will increase the drop rates overall. So if you do the hardest possible epic the drop rates are much more generous than if you do the base epic. And by difficult I mean increase mob SR, saves, AC, damage, hp and resistances to elements (no blanket immunities). Blanket immunities only unfairly hamper build creativity that players have.

CR 25-30 dungeons would be nice with a drop rate increase of 5% per tier. Even 31-35 CR's that are near impossible.

[Auran82]

I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

I would like to see epic items go somewhat toward how it was done in crystal cove, base item relatively easy to acquire, and be able to upgrade that item through doing various tasks. Like Sirgog said, whether it be through tokens, or maybe completing certain objectives or difficult optionals. I must emphasize, I don't want it exactly like CC, where you can repeat the same easy quest over and over to get your uber item, it should be something you have to work for, but you should be able to get *something* relatively quickly and be able to see yourself progressing toward a goal.

IMO there is too much emphasis on completing epic quests the easiest/quickest way possible and ignoring most optionals (and even quests if there are easier quests with same/better rewards) Having a couple of different difficulties within the epic option would be nice, so it could cover from the new level 20, to the Shades and Sirgogs with rewards scaling as appropriate.

In the quests themselves, I would like to see less use of blanket immunities, and (if possible) more use of AI and enemy casted spells. If possible, some randomness in encounter makeup and even punish the group that just charges in headfirst without considering what they are up against. Give some cleric mobs mass deathward, but on a cooldown, start them spread out so they can't necessarily hit everyone at once. Give other clerics single target deathward with a lower cooldown. Some mobs might wear deathblock items, but not everyone. Casters/clerics/ranger types etc might cast resists when threatened, have enemy scouts run away to warn others (I guess like DA, so other groups are aware that they may be under attack)

Personally I would love to see encounters that are more like:

Scout checks to see whats up ahead. Enemy cleric, 2 casters, 2 barbarians. His high spot lets him see a rogue sneaking around the perimeter. Rogue sneaks in and positions himself behind the cleic, rest of party attacks from the front, wizard FoDs one of the casters successfully, barbarian jumps over to stun the other while the rogue assasinates the cleric. Party then cleans up the rest of the encounter being aware of the hiding enemy rogue as their scout warned them.

I know its probably not possible/feasible in this environment, but I would like to see Epic AI become smarter, not just more hp/damage/ac/etc etc. More strategy, less dogpile on enemies one at a time.

[Auran82]

The ToD rings should have been something similar. It should have been a base Ring that either dropped in chest or purchased with a certain number of trophies. The Base Ring would be taken to an Altar so the player could pick which +6 Stat and Prestige Class enhancement they wanted on the ring. Then the player could add the Incredible Potential to the ring.

This wouldn't have made the extremely lame rings any better (that's a different problem all together), but this would have prevented alot of drama over the two or three rings everyone wants.

Regarding ToD rings, I would like to get clarification on whether the ravager ring was meant to be an applied dot, where subsequent hits reset the timer, instead of resetting the first damage application (making it esentially 2d6 damage per attack) or if it is WAI.

Secondly, I would like to see the +2 damage and +2 attack bonuses that the shintao set has available somewhere else (doesn't need to be together on the one item) or have the +2 damage not stack with the epic claw set (though I will probably make people upset with that suggestion, keep in mind I have 3 characters with the shintao set, only one is a monk)

[sirgog]

I know its probably not possible/feasible in this environment, but I would like to see Epic AI become smarter, not just more hp/damage/ac/etc etc. More strategy, less dogpile on enemies one at a time.

Honestly, just increased enemy movement speed would massively improve their effective AI.

At present we see this:

'Ooh look, the Wizard I'm aggroed on is running that way until his/her/its Wail cooldown expires, I better walk toward them'
followed by 'Ah gee, they're still ahead of me by the same distance, better keep walking'
and then '(Combat You attempt to save against Myrmidral's Wail of the Banshee. You roll a 16(+25) - save failure'.

With faster mob movement speeds, we'd see more of 'run to catch up, swing, run to catch up, swing'.

[Karbalis]

I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good constructive feedback can only help.

Oh lord. Ok everyone, remember this post 50 pages from now....he ASKED for this.

A base level 20 item that is an improvement for most people just starting epics and then tiered item bonuses/tiered crafting slots that let you tailor that item towards your specific character such as was on the pirate hats. I think this would make more epic loot viable rather than just trash because there would be more customization available. A system similar to the one in crystal cove would be easier for the player to at least see/feel a more steady gear progression than farming hopelessly for that one rare shard, seal, or scroll. It also would put less pressure on Genasi to individually tweak every epic item when people are unhappy with them. The player can tweak their own gear to fit their needs.

Yes ^^ this. Possibly make it spread across more than one epic, or across more than one level range. For some reason to me it's more satisfying to see a item I already have be able to be improved and customized than simply getting a totally new version of something that is set in stone, even if it does have one or two slots with a few things that can be done extra to it.

Edit - oh and for clarity, one upgrade per item.

No, just.....no. Maybe one upgrade per item if it's a wearable item, but DEFINITELY not on weapons. You would need at least 2 upgrades to a simple base damage item for it to feel worthwhile and useable end game otherwise how would it possibly be any better than GS items?