Attn: Genasi, Re: Epic Garo's Malice

[waterboytkd]

Genasi,

I haven't gotten a chance to run with Garo's Malice yet, but I've checked out the screenshots of the upgraded version.

Assuming that Greater Incineration = Lightning Strike for overall damage, I just wanted to point out that it still isn't as much damage as a Lit II against a foe susceptible to both lightning or fire and weak to neither. They are very close, but I calculated the Lit II a few points ahead. This is doubly problematic when taking into account what the majority of end game is all about: devils, who happen to be immune to fire damage.

Of course, this does not take the Blinding Embers effect into account, since that is not a direct damage increasing ability, but would help anyone with sneak attack get more damage in. BUT, it still only pops up 5% of the time, so is not a reliable source of blinding-leading-to-sneak attack. Also, I think it's fair to mention that if someone wanted to make this item for the Burning Embers effect, they'd be much better off building a Rad II item, due to the fact that Rad II goes off on any crit. Sure, Rad II is less damage, but if blinding the foe is that important, the x4-6 chance of doing so is going to be worth it.

The goal was to make these items more desirable, and to that end, you've succeeded. I just fear that with this item, though it's more desirable than its previous incarnation, it still isn't more desirable than level 17 raid loot (Lit II or Rad II), and it just won't be pursued by people, and most likely would only get constructed because someone happened to collect all the pieces while trying to get a different epic item put together.

Perhaps some other damage permutations could be added to make it stronger? Like flaming and flaming burst? That'd push it just beyond Lit II for damage, and make it probably a bit more appealing vs. non-fire-immune trash due to the Burning Embers effect (but not strictly better than Lit II because of the nature of our endgame).

Or, Burning Embers could be upgraded to happen on any crit (essentially, Radiance II), which would make the item quite a bit more powerful than a Rad II GS item, and though it would be less damage than a Lit II, it would have a niche that it fills for sneak attackers. Even then, the Rad II rapier might still be more appealing for the +10% blinding chance, but this would at least compete against that due to the much better damage.

Or, some kind of exceptional, stacking Sneak Attack could be added to it (since it used to have Sneak Attack, and the flavor text clearly states that this weapon is supposed to be better against "unaware" foes), which would team up with the Blinding Embers nicely, making that ability useful no matter who was wielding the weapon. Maybe something like an exceptional +3 to attack and an exceptional +5 to damage if you're sneak attacking?

Just some ideas as this item is starting to look cool, but still doesn't seem quite worth actively pursuing. I think it still needs a little more of a boost.

[Kaytis]

It's my understanding that the incineration proc rate is supposed to be quite a bit higher than Lit II. Have you taken that into account when comparing DPS to a Lit II? Genasi pointed out, when discussing the proposed changes, that it probably would not be as good as Lit II on the many end-game fire resistant mobs, but that it would be an effective alternative to Lit II in most other circumstances. I have enough pieces to make two of them for my tempest ranger, and am looking forward to trying them out.

[scottmike0]

It's my understanding that the incineration proc rate is supposed to be quite a bit higher than Lit II. Have you taken that into account when comparing DPS to a Lit II? Genasi pointed out, when discussing the proposed changes, that it probably would not be as good as Lit II on the many end-game fire resistant mobs, but that it would be an effective alternative to Lit II in most other circumstances. I have enough pieces to make two of them for my tempest ranger, and am looking forward to trying them out.

yep, but remember that epic items with procs have a higher chance than greensteel or so most say and i learn

[ThePrisoner]

Genasi,

I haven't gotten a chance to run with Garo's Malice yet, but I've checked out the screenshots of the upgraded version.

Assuming that Greater Incineration = Lightning Strike for overall damage, I just wanted to point out that it still isn't as much damage as a Lit II against a foe susceptible to both lightning or fire and weak to neither. They are very close, but I calculated the Lit II a few points ahead. This is doubly problematic when taking into account what the majority of end game is all about: devils, who happen to be immune to fire damage. .

Regular incineration about equals a lit II when it comes to the damage of the proc, since incineration is listed at 300 damage with a 5% chance of proccing (is that a word?) and lit II has about a 2% chance of about 600 damage. The new Garos' Malice has Greater Incineration, which is supposed to proc 2x as much as regular incineration. This gives it a big advantage over a lit II when it comes to mobs weak to fire as far as special proc damage is concerned and seem like they would give an advantage against any mob that takes fire damage at all. A smarter, less lazy person would do the math on that second assumption to see if it held true against a lit II khopesh.

As for endgame content, it seems that most epic quests consist of enemies that take fire damage.

I think we are going to come out OK on this weapon the way it is currently planned.

[sirgog]

Regular incineration about equals a lit II when it comes to the damage of the proc, since incineration is listed at 300 damage with a 5% chance of proccing (is that a word?) and lit II has about a 2% chance of about 600 damage. The new Garos' Malice has Greater Incineration, which is supposed to proc 2x as much as regular incineration. This gives it a big advantage over a lit II when it comes to mobs weak to fire as far as special proc damage is concerned and seem like they would give an advantage against any mob that takes fire damage at all. A smarter, less lazy person would do the math on that second assumption to see if it held true against a lit II khopesh.

As for endgame content, it seems that most epic quests consist of enemies that take fire damage.

I think we are going to come out OK on this weapon the way it is currently planned.

Incineration's proc rate is definitely nowhere near 5%. Greater Incineration might be in that range.

[Solmage]

Incineration's proc rate is definitely nowhere near 5%. Greater Incineration might be in that range.

Yeah, would've worked nicely if it were, but incineration is prolly on 2% or so.

So with this in mind, I agree with the OP, blinding on crit would help the weapon out a lot, otherwise it's an purple numbers to fire only weapon.

[ThePrisoner]

Yeah, would've worked nicely if it were, but incineration is prolly on 2% or so.

So with this in mind, I agree with the OP, blinding on crit would help the weapon out a lot, otherwise it's an purple numbers to fire only weapon.

If this is true then new data on the incineration proc rate would be appreciated so that the wiki, perfectweb, and montreal sites can be updated (and filled in where the proc rate is blank in montreal's case).

[waterboytkd]

If this is true then new data on the incineration proc rate would be appreciated so that the wiki, perfectweb, and montreal sites can be updated (and filled in where the proc rate is blank in montreal's case).

It does look like the wiki thinks Incineration procs 5% of the time, but:

Epic Garos' Malice: Replaced normal Incineration with Greater Incineration (procs about twice as often as normal Incineration, for the same amount of damage). Greater Incineration should do DPS in the neighborhood of Lightning Strike, albeit in a damage type that a lot of enemies are resistant/immune to. As a tradeoff, it procs quite a bit more often for smaller chunks of damage, so you will get fewer "wasted" procs. And I do hope this becomes a go-to weapon for fire-weak enemies.

Here we have Genasi stating that Greater Incineration will about equal a Lightning Strike in overall dps.

Sadly, that's not enough to push this past Lit II for damage output, and the Blinding Embers just doesn't seem like enough to make this item pursued. As for purple numbers, well, Sirgog layed it out pretty well. This item will be great for a capped toon farming Prey on the Hunter, I guess...

[sirgog]

Yeah, would've worked nicely if it were, but incineration is prolly on 2% or so.

So with this in mind, I agree with the OP, blinding on crit would help the weapon out a lot, otherwise it's an purple numbers to fire only weapon.

Even on 125% incoming fire damage mobs (Scrags), a Radiance 2 Khopesh is far, far ahead.

AFAIK the only mobs at endgame that suffer more than 125% incoming fire damage are White Dragons (150% IIRC, and not really endgame) and Wiz-King Mummies (200%).


Edit - oh and Cojoined Abashai Devastator, Ice form is 200%.

[waterboytkd]

Bumping this in hopes of getting Genasi's attention.

GENASI: What are your thoughts on this on the notion that this item is weaker than both a Lit II and a Rad II greensteel weapon? Do you think people will actually try to make it? What niche do you see liking this weapon?

[waterboytkd]

After doing some additional calcs of my own, Greater Incineration actually comes out to more damage per hit than Lightning Strike. In fact, it should result in about 50% more raw damage, due to how much more often it procs (which is slightly more than twice as often as normal Incin).

Wow. If that's accurate (50% more damage than lightning strike), then yeah, this will be pretty sweet for damage. At least, outside of devils. The funny part, i was thinking that epics had a lot of devils in it, too (chrono, even house p has malicia and haro, plus a ton of tieflings), but then you guys slip us 2 new epic raids that's all constructs.

Thanks for responding, though. Also, what are the odds the devs will ever give us hard data on the proc rates and average damages for those tier 3 shroud affinity abilities and their ilk (incineration, crushing wave, radiant blasy, etc)? If we, the players, yad that hard data, we wouldn't have to bug you about incorrect assumptions on the dps of new weapons. :P

But thanks again for the response.

[Vazok1]

Off topic: Oi!! Where's the mindfury symboint Genasi!!

On topic: cant wait to make a few of the epic items such as Garos Malice to be honest, although the seals elude me :P

I'm really looking forward to your re-work of the sands pack (which i'm sure is somewhere along the timeline even if its a long way off(i think when we see this we'll see epic gianthold soon after)), I've never really ran epic sands pack much due to the difficulty in gaining the item you want and the poor effects on some of the items.

[bbqzor]

Dont think anyone was comparing it to Lit2, I used that because its the damage number Genasi referenced in his post. In fact if you read the second half of the post you quoted, its the radiance comparison that was done. Personally Id have compared it to a radiance rapier, but kopesh was asked for so was used. In either event, it still seems a tad light. The 2d6 base and 19+ x2 crit are both just kind of too low to pay off without a lot of help, it seems.