Attn: Genasi, Re: Epic Garo's Malice

[waterboytkd]

Genasi,

I haven't gotten a chance to run with Garo's Malice yet, but I've checked out the screenshots of the upgraded version.

Assuming that Greater Incineration = Lightning Strike for overall damage, I just wanted to point out that it still isn't as much damage as a Lit II against a foe susceptible to both lightning or fire and weak to neither. They are very close, but I calculated the Lit II a few points ahead. This is doubly problematic when taking into account what the majority of end game is all about: devils, who happen to be immune to fire damage.

Of course, this does not take the Blinding Embers effect into account, since that is not a direct damage increasing ability, but would help anyone with sneak attack get more damage in. BUT, it still only pops up 5% of the time, so is not a reliable source of blinding-leading-to-sneak attack. Also, I think it's fair to mention that if someone wanted to make this item for the Burning Embers effect, they'd be much better off building a Rad II item, due to the fact that Rad II goes off on any crit. Sure, Rad II is less damage, but if blinding the foe is that important, the x4-6 chance of doing so is going to be worth it.

The goal was to make these items more desirable, and to that end, you've succeeded. I just fear that with this item, though it's more desirable than its previous incarnation, it still isn't more desirable than level 17 raid loot (Lit II or Rad II), and it just won't be pursued by people, and most likely would only get constructed because someone happened to collect all the pieces while trying to get a different epic item put together.

Perhaps some other damage permutations could be added to make it stronger? Like flaming and flaming burst? That'd push it just beyond Lit II for damage, and make it probably a bit more appealing vs. non-fire-immune trash due to the Burning Embers effect (but not strictly better than Lit II because of the nature of our endgame).

Or, Burning Embers could be upgraded to happen on any crit (essentially, Radiance II), which would make the item quite a bit more powerful than a Rad II GS item, and though it would be less damage than a Lit II, it would have a niche that it fills for sneak attackers. Even then, the Rad II rapier might still be more appealing for the +10% blinding chance, but this would at least compete against that due to the much better damage.

Or, some kind of exceptional, stacking Sneak Attack could be added to it (since it used to have Sneak Attack, and the flavor text clearly states that this weapon is supposed to be better against "unaware" foes), which would team up with the Blinding Embers nicely, making that ability useful no matter who was wielding the weapon. Maybe something like an exceptional +3 to attack and an exceptional +5 to damage if you're sneak attacking?

Just some ideas as this item is starting to look cool, but still doesn't seem quite worth actively pursuing. I think it still needs a little more of a boost.

[Kaytis]

It's my understanding that the incineration proc rate is supposed to be quite a bit higher than Lit II. Have you taken that into account when comparing DPS to a Lit II? Genasi pointed out, when discussing the proposed changes, that it probably would not be as good as Lit II on the many end-game fire resistant mobs, but that it would be an effective alternative to Lit II in most other circumstances. I have enough pieces to make two of them for my tempest ranger, and am looking forward to trying them out.

[scottmike0]

It's my understanding that the incineration proc rate is supposed to be quite a bit higher than Lit II. Have you taken that into account when comparing DPS to a Lit II? Genasi pointed out, when discussing the proposed changes, that it probably would not be as good as Lit II on the many end-game fire resistant mobs, but that it would be an effective alternative to Lit II in most other circumstances. I have enough pieces to make two of them for my tempest ranger, and am looking forward to trying them out.

yep, but remember that epic items with procs have a higher chance than greensteel or so most say and i learn

[ThePrisoner]

Genasi,

I haven't gotten a chance to run with Garo's Malice yet, but I've checked out the screenshots of the upgraded version.

Assuming that Greater Incineration = Lightning Strike for overall damage, I just wanted to point out that it still isn't as much damage as a Lit II against a foe susceptible to both lightning or fire and weak to neither. They are very close, but I calculated the Lit II a few points ahead. This is doubly problematic when taking into account what the majority of end game is all about: devils, who happen to be immune to fire damage. .

Regular incineration about equals a lit II when it comes to the damage of the proc, since incineration is listed at 300 damage with a 5% chance of proccing (is that a word?) and lit II has about a 2% chance of about 600 damage. The new Garos' Malice has Greater Incineration, which is supposed to proc 2x as much as regular incineration. This gives it a big advantage over a lit II when it comes to mobs weak to fire as far as special proc damage is concerned and seem like they would give an advantage against any mob that takes fire damage at all. A smarter, less lazy person would do the math on that second assumption to see if it held true against a lit II khopesh.

As for endgame content, it seems that most epic quests consist of enemies that take fire damage.

I think we are going to come out OK on this weapon the way it is currently planned.

[sirgog]

Regular incineration about equals a lit II when it comes to the damage of the proc, since incineration is listed at 300 damage with a 5% chance of proccing (is that a word?) and lit II has about a 2% chance of about 600 damage. The new Garos' Malice has Greater Incineration, which is supposed to proc 2x as much as regular incineration. This gives it a big advantage over a lit II when it comes to mobs weak to fire as far as special proc damage is concerned and seem like they would give an advantage against any mob that takes fire damage at all. A smarter, less lazy person would do the math on that second assumption to see if it held true against a lit II khopesh.

As for endgame content, it seems that most epic quests consist of enemies that take fire damage.

I think we are going to come out OK on this weapon the way it is currently planned.

Incineration's proc rate is definitely nowhere near 5%. Greater Incineration might be in that range.

[Solmage]

Incineration's proc rate is definitely nowhere near 5%. Greater Incineration might be in that range.

Yeah, would've worked nicely if it were, but incineration is prolly on 2% or so.

So with this in mind, I agree with the OP, blinding on crit would help the weapon out a lot, otherwise it's an purple numbers to fire only weapon.

[ThePrisoner]

Yeah, would've worked nicely if it were, but incineration is prolly on 2% or so.

So with this in mind, I agree with the OP, blinding on crit would help the weapon out a lot, otherwise it's an purple numbers to fire only weapon.

If this is true then new data on the incineration proc rate would be appreciated so that the wiki, perfectweb, and montreal sites can be updated (and filled in where the proc rate is blank in montreal's case).

[sirgog]

Yeah, would've worked nicely if it were, but incineration is prolly on 2% or so.

So with this in mind, I agree with the OP, blinding on crit would help the weapon out a lot, otherwise it's an purple numbers to fire only weapon.

Even on 125% incoming fire damage mobs (Scrags), a Radiance 2 Khopesh is far, far ahead.

AFAIK the only mobs at endgame that suffer more than 125% incoming fire damage are White Dragons (150% IIRC, and not really endgame) and Wiz-King Mummies (200%).


Edit - oh and Cojoined Abashai Devastator, Ice form is 200%.

[waterboytkd]

If this is true then new data on the incineration proc rate would be appreciated so that the wiki, perfectweb, and montreal sites can be updated (and filled in where the proc rate is blank in montreal's case).

It does look like the wiki thinks Incineration procs 5% of the time, but:

Epic Garos' Malice: Replaced normal Incineration with Greater Incineration (procs about twice as often as normal Incineration, for the same amount of damage). Greater Incineration should do DPS in the neighborhood of Lightning Strike, albeit in a damage type that a lot of enemies are resistant/immune to. As a tradeoff, it procs quite a bit more often for smaller chunks of damage, so you will get fewer "wasted" procs. And I do hope this becomes a go-to weapon for fire-weak enemies.

Here we have Genasi stating that Greater Incineration will about equal a Lightning Strike in overall dps.

Sadly, that's not enough to push this past Lit II for damage output, and the Blinding Embers just doesn't seem like enough to make this item pursued. As for purple numbers, well, Sirgog layed it out pretty well. This item will be great for a capped toon farming Prey on the Hunter, I guess...

[waterboytkd]

Bumping this in hopes of getting Genasi's attention.

GENASI: What are your thoughts on this on the notion that this item is weaker than both a Lit II and a Rad II greensteel weapon? Do you think people will actually try to make it? What niche do you see liking this weapon?

[Genasi]

Assuming that Greater Incineration = Lightning Strike for overall damage, I just wanted to point out that it still isn't as much damage as a Lit II against a foe susceptible to both lightning or fire and weak to neither. They are very close, but I calculated the Lit II a few points ahead. This is doubly problematic when taking into account what the majority of end game is all about: devils, who happen to be immune to fire damage.

After doing some additional calcs of my own, Greater Incineration actually comes out to more damage per hit than Lightning Strike. In fact, it should result in about 50% more raw damage, due to how much more often it procs (which is slightly more than twice as often as normal Incin). I think it will suit an Epic item just fine, and should make up for the fact that a lot of end-game enemies tend to resist or be immune to fire. Also, I'd add that Epic quests do offer many more opportunities than Amrath to beat on enemies that take full damage from fire.

Incineration's proc rate is definitely nowhere near 5%. Greater Incineration might be in that range.

Correct, Greater Incin is within this range (and Incineration is indeed a good deal less, as mentioned).

Here we have Genasi stating that Greater Incineration will about equal a Lightning Strike in overall dps.

Yeah, closer analysis reveals that I was rather off with that estimation. I think when you give this weapon a try it's going to do significantly more damage than you're expecting, and with the Blinding Embers as an occasional bonus it should make for a pretty satisfying weapon. Let me know what you think after you've had a chance to swing it around a bit- there will be opportunities in the future to visit some of these items again, but I'm afraid they're pretty set-in-stone now as far as Update 11 is concerned.

[waterboytkd]

After doing some additional calcs of my own, Greater Incineration actually comes out to more damage per hit than Lightning Strike. In fact, it should result in about 50% more raw damage, due to how much more often it procs (which is slightly more than twice as often as normal Incin).

Wow. If that's accurate (50% more damage than lightning strike), then yeah, this will be pretty sweet for damage. At least, outside of devils. The funny part, i was thinking that epics had a lot of devils in it, too (chrono, even house p has malicia and haro, plus a ton of tieflings), but then you guys slip us 2 new epic raids that's all constructs.

Thanks for responding, though. Also, what are the odds the devs will ever give us hard data on the proc rates and average damages for those tier 3 shroud affinity abilities and their ilk (incineration, crushing wave, radiant blasy, etc)? If we, the players, yad that hard data, we wouldn't have to bug you about incorrect assumptions on the dps of new weapons. :P

But thanks again for the response.

[sirgog]

After doing some additional calcs of my own, Greater Incineration actually comes out to more damage per hit than Lightning Strike. In fact, it should result in about 50% more raw damage, due to how much more often it procs (which is slightly more than twice as often as normal Incin). I think it will suit an Epic item just fine, and should make up for the fact that a lot of end-game enemies tend to resist or be immune to fire. Also, I'd add that Epic quests do offer many more opportunities than Amrath to beat on enemies that take full damage from fire.


Correct, Greater Incin is within this range (and Incineration is indeed a good deal less, as mentioned).

Yeah, closer analysis reveals that I was rather off with that estimation. I think when you give this weapon a try it's going to do significantly more damage than you're expecting, and with the Blinding Embers as an occasional bonus it should make for a pretty satisfying weapon. Let me know what you think after you've had a chance to swing it around a bit- there will be opportunities in the future to visit some of these items again, but I'm afraid they're pretty set-in-stone now as far as Update 11 is concerned.

Any chance you could just reveal the precise proc rates and average damage of the various Shroud effects?

Are we even right about 2%/600 for Lightning Strike, 2%/300 for Incineration, 2%/475 for Disintegration, 2%/80+80+80+80 for Corrosive Salt and the like, or are the actual proc rates something oddball like 1.85% or 2.23%?

And also - have these ever changed? Lightning Strike seems to do more damage now than it was reported to early on.


Edit: Oh and funny that someone else asked this while I was alt-tabbed out of the forums, loading the Lamannia client.


One final question - given you actually have *exact* numbers, how does the eGM compare, in pure damage output, to a Radiance 2 Khopesh (Holy, Flaming Burst, Flaming Blast), assuming the target is at 125% incoming fire damage (eDeeps Scrag and the like)?

[Vazok1]

Off topic: Oi!! Where's the mindfury symboint Genasi!!

On topic: cant wait to make a few of the epic items such as Garos Malice to be honest, although the seals elude me :P

I'm really looking forward to your re-work of the sands pack (which i'm sure is somewhere along the timeline even if its a long way off(i think when we see this we'll see epic gianthold soon after)), I've never really ran epic sands pack much due to the difficulty in gaining the item you want and the poor effects on some of the items.

[Xaxx]

As i had one of the first, or perhaps the first ligtning strike on my server (I ran and made it within an hour or so of seeing kargons hammer.. I think it was kargons hammer) I'll tell ya this. Lightning strikes damage is the same now as it was then. The strike percentage is more than likely the same as I've never noticed a change in its seeming proc percentage of about 2%... well there was that one evon1 where my wf fvs duo'd it with a friend and I must have gotten 2 or 3 lightning strikes per mob.... I'm not sure to this day how I managed to bug that to get it to do that.. but it was fun as hell and has inspired many a recitation of the man you should have been here when my sword did this type.

But anyway.... yeah dont believe lightning strike damage or proc rate has ever really changed... stuborn as it can be sometimes... nah dont think so.

[sirgog]

As i had one of the first, or perhaps the first ligtning strike on my server (I ran and made it within an hour or so of seeing kargons hammer.. I think it was kargons hammer) I'll tell ya this. Lightning strikes damage is the same now as it was then. The strike percentage is more than likely the same as I've never noticed a change in its seeming proc percentage of about 2%... well there was that one evon1 where my wf fvs duo'd it with a friend and I must have gotten 2 or 3 lightning strikes per mob.... I'm not sure to this day how I managed to bug that to get it to do that.. but it was fun as hell and has inspired many a recitation of the man you should have been here when my sword did this type.

But anyway.... yeah dont believe lightning strike damage or proc rate has ever really changed... stuborn as it can be sometimes... nah dont think so.

OK. I was asking because it was initially reported to average 550 damage, whereas I'd put the average closer to 610-615 or so. Sub 600 Strikes happen, but not all that often.

[bbqzor]

After doing some additional calcs of my own, Greater Incineration actually comes out to more damage per hit than Lightning Strike. In fact, it should result in about 50% more raw damage, due to how much more often it procs (which is slightly more than twice as often as normal Incin).

Taking Lit2 at 2% for 600 yields 12 dmg/swing, meaning at the quoted values greater incineration should be 18 dmg/swing. Working backwards to a 5% proc rate, that means greater incineration only hits for around 360? Seems kind of light, but I guess it is proc'ing a lot (in theory). This weapons still a bit light in my opinion, simply because if you want fire damage theres comparable options, and if you want blinding theres better options, so its sort of never a 'best case' choice. Just a gut opinion. Will see how it feels on live, but I suspect either more fire or more blinding or more +sneak would be useful.

One final question - given you actually have *exact* numbers, how does the eGM compare, in pure damage output, to a Radiance 2 Khopesh (Holy, Flaming Burst, Flaming Blast), assuming the target is at 125% incoming fire damage (eDeeps Scrag and the like)?

I know you didnt ask me, but I have a pretty good calculator so throwing my hat in. Assuming a mob taking 125% off fire (so 25% extra), and also assuming other basic things (improved crit for either, zero dr, zero fort, hitting on a 2+, haste, etc), epic garos is 71 damage per second while the holy/fire/fire radiance kopesh is 58 damage per second. Thats at strength 10 (so no damage modifier). At Str30, its 90 to 81. At Str50, its 110 to 103. At Str50 with Seeker6 its 114 to 110.

Basically, when the mob is taking extra fire damage, the epic garos pulls (and stays) slightly ahead. Otherwise, not so much, plus it blinds less. So without purple numbers its still kind of a toy, and with purple numbers its a trade of less blinding for more damage. Granted, that assumes the 5% for 360 proc, obviously a change there would be quite relevant. Let me know how I did Genasi =p

[Hollowgolem]

Taking Lit2 at 2% for 600 yields 12 dmg/swing, meaning at the quoted values greater incineration should be 18 dmg/swing. Working backwards to a 5% proc rate, that means greater incineration only hits for around 360? Seems kind of light, but I guess it is proc'ing a lot (in theory). This weapons still a bit light in my opinion, simply because if you want fire damage theres comparable options, and if you want blinding theres better options, so its sort of never a 'best case' choice. Just a gut opinion. Will see how it feels on live, but I suspect either more fire or more blinding or more +sneak would be useful.

More fire is always good. :P

But seriously, the comparisons of this utility shortsword to litII's is silly. As has already been said, think radII; that's the item with which it's directly competing.

[bbqzor]

Dont think anyone was comparing it to Lit2, I used that because its the damage number Genasi referenced in his post. In fact if you read the second half of the post you quoted, its the radiance comparison that was done. Personally Id have compared it to a radiance rapier, but kopesh was asked for so was used. In either event, it still seems a tad light. The 2d6 base and 19+ x2 crit are both just kind of too low to pay off without a lot of help, it seems.