Crossbows insanely fast now - way faster then melee even at BAB1

[Shade]

heh seems like they can never get this right..


Testing results: (Manual Fire) (lvl2 artifcer, BAB1, they get rapid reload for free, no rapid shot)
Light repeater
At BAB1 or 2 I verified there is exactly a 1200ms delay between shots with click-catch (simple click macro app). 1200ms/60 seconds = 50 shots. 3shots per click with a repeater = 150 bolts per minute. Wicked fast.
And yea I did verify thats possible to do manually also, got 147 bolts off, with 1 mistimed click, so 150 if i did it flawless. (Easy enough with a macro)
Great crossbow:
These shoot EVEN FASTER (tho no triple hit ofcourse). Exactly 900ms delay between shots = Exactly 66.6 bolt per min. Devil speed. Add in the incredible crit range of the one u get for free (15-20), and the knockdown on a 20, and they are rather potent in there own way.
Light Crossbow:
Tiny bit faster still. 850ms delay. = 70.588 bolts per min.
Dont have a heavy on me.

Autoattack:
Repeater:
~96/99 rounds fired in 1 min. Over 50% faster with manual fire.

For reference, TWF at BAB1 is about ~80 swings a min. 40% offhands with TWF = 112 hits per min... Vs hvy repeaters 150.
BTW This speed actauly slows down at BAB3 for TWF, as you get your 4th attack animation, which is slower.

Little me's test at higher BAB (13 to be precise) with rapid shot showed roughly the same results of ~130-150 bolts per min depending on accuracy of clicks.

He had rapid reload and rapid shot.. So seems it doesn't scale (least not up to BAB13) and rapid shot has no effect. Also mentioned same speed with hvy/light repeater.

Not sure if haste has any effect.. Needs testing.

Too slow before.. now too fast (well for BAB1, These rates at BAB20 seem reasonable)

Maybe its more balanced at BAB20..

But right now its pretty much machine gun speed with a light repeater on korthos as an artificer (or anyone with rapir reload, didnt take rapid shot)

tho actaully all crossbows are mega fast now. The crazy OP (for its lvl) greatcrossbow (eladrins) attacks juts as fast as the light crossbow, and does 4d8 base dmg with point blank (plus a few from enhancement/cold).. Basicly 1 shot every monster - with sub 1 second attack rates.

How to get super speed - you do need to do it manually:
options - untic hold rightclick to attack..
Then time your click so it happens the moment your done reloading. Feels pretty crazy fast compared to BAB1 melee attack rates if you time it right.

Add in the 2d8 base dmg from point blank shot, and melees light years behind.

And actually yea the whole progression of swing/shoot speed idea im not really a fan of - It's just plain more fun to attack faster and that should be a big consideration, over anything else.. Just think it should be balanced vs melee. If they wanna give crossbows BAB20 speed at BAB1, then give us BAB20 melee speed at BAB1. Same for bows.

[Mjesko]

I think the attack speed is great, but the Point Blank Shot feat should work that way:

Without PBS:
Ranged attacks inflict 150 % base damage beyond 30 feet and 100 % base damage within 30 feet.

With PBS:
Ranged attacks inflict 150 % base damage.

[Alabore]

So it wasn't me.
I did notice the GXBow seemed a bit too fast - but I've never tried one on the Live server before.

The speed was even more baffling, considering my Artie could reload the GXBow with just one hand, while the rune arm was equipped.

...

Stray thought: the rune arm sounds like a PPC from Mechwarrior games, when charging up...

[Fetchi]

Any change to bow users? Wishful thinking I guess...

[rimble]

I don't think this anything too surprising. Repeaters were always pretty awesome at low levels compared to melees that are lacking their BaB and/or their TWF and THF Feats still.

[Shade]

I think the attack speed is great

if by great you mean "very broken" I agree.

It's a bit silly that my lvl1 artificer - seposedly primarily a caster class? can solo every lvl1-2 elite quest at lvl1, with an 8 dex.. Purely using a repeater without casting a single spell, or even taking a long a potion. All with basic gear you get for free too.

Guess I could of technically had 8 for all stats, since none of them came into play at all.

Try that on a melee with 8 str, tell me how well it works out.

Or hell on a bow ranger with 8 dex.. That will be fun.

Even tho i mainly get grazing hits on elite, I still kill everything before it hits me because i attack like i have a machine gun in my hand, eventually something connects.

Yea its low lvl who cares how broken it is?

I dunno, i think turbine would care if they go thru the trouble of designing all these spells and no one bothers to use them because crossbows outclass them in every way.

The speeds prolly fine for high lvl assuming its not much faster.. But there shoudl be some sense of progression..
Not lvl1= machine gun
lvl20 = still machine gun

[Shade]

I don't think this anything too surprising. Repeaters were always pretty awesome at low levels compared to melees that are lacking their BaB and/or their TWF and THF Feats still.

Yea but the repeater is actually worse then the greatcrossbow.

Even a light crossbow is pretty crazy.

Maybe thats how artifcrs are intended to work?

But this isnt a artificer only thing.. You could put rapid reload on any class and get the same silly speed and ignore all your class abilities the first few lvls since there vastly inferior.

[SableShadow]

But this isnt a artificer only thing.. You could put rapid reload on any class and get the same silly speed and ignore all your class abilities the first few lvls since there vastly inferior.

Maybe the devs watched Hawk the Slayer one too many times while working on the project?

[stricq]

Any change to bow users? Wishful thinking I guess...

See this:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=173

[rimble]

Yea but the repeater is actually worse then the greatcrossbow.

Even a light crossbow is pretty crazy..

Ooohh...yeah...sounds...off...

[Seikojin]

I was wondering with their changes to crossbow reloading if it would do this. Gonna reroll into a repeater? LOL

[Zaodon]

You could put a two-handed sword or great axe on any class and get the same silly dps and ignore all your class abilities the first few lvls since there vastly inferior.

Fixed to reflect what happens on live servers.

[Fetchi]

See this:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=173

Sweet! Thanks for the link.

[Scraap]

Maybe its more balanced at BAB20..

<snip>

How to get super speed - you do need to do it manually:
options - untic hold rightclick to attack..
Then time your click so it happens the moment your done reloading. I'll leave the testing up to you guys, but feels pretty crazy fast compared to BAB1 melee attack rates if you time it right.

Without that trick, at bab 16, there's still a significant reload gap. Should be interesting to see which rate the devs intended. More testing later tonight after work, hopefully.

[Shade]

You could put a two-handed sword or great axe on any class and get the same silly dps and ignore all your class abilities the first few lvls since there vastly inferior.

Not exactly.

Melee swings extremely slow at low bab. And has this thing called lack of range.. So you actaully get hit back while fighting.

So while you can overpowered monsters with 8 dex with a repeater thanks to machine gun rates even if your relying on high rolls/grazing hits while kiting a bit (tho for the most part I didnt even need to kite, it all died before it reached me, as the little dog pet actaully holds agro pretty well)

With melee, it doesn't work so well. You tend to die or drink a ton of potions before you get much anything dead if you try to melee with 8 strength on lvl1-2 hard/elite quests, and even normal most players might need a potion or 2.

If you start 18+ str, well melee IS your primary class ability, so it should work well.

[Cyr]

Maybe the devs watched Hawk the Slayer one too many times while working on the project?

Never saw it myself. Was megaman a main character?

[Missing_Minds]

Shade, have you tried it against any lvl 1 caster with their eternal wands? Those starter eternal wands (as well as WW acid splash) always had really fast sling times. And at lvl 1, way out did any bow shooting in damage with the first wand damage enhancement.

[Zaodon]

Not exactly.

Melee swings extremely slow at low bab. And has this thing called lack of range.. So you actaully get hit back while fighting.

So while you can overpowered monsters with 8 dex with a repeater thanks to machine gun rates even if your relying on high rolls/grazing hits while kiting a bit (tho for the most part I didnt even need to kite, it all died before it reached me, as the little dog pet actaully holds agro pretty well)

With melee, it doesn't work so well. You tend to die or drink a ton of potions before you get much anything dead if you try to melee with 8 strength on lvl1-2 hard/elite quests, and even normal most players might need a potion or 2.

If you start 18+ str, well melee IS your primary class ability, so it should work well.

Go roll an 8 str WF wizard, put a "+1 (Risia Frost) 2-hand of pure good" on it, and level it to 7th level using no offensive spells, just swinging and repair spells. Hard, elite, doesn't matter, I never miss, and kill things in 1-2 hits. After 7th level, swap to being a caster (Wall of Fire).

Swapping 2-handed sword for repeater really makes no difference from level 1-7. As you said originally, if this holds up to level 20, then you might have a complaint. But from 1-7, its no different than on live with 2-h fighting.

[Missing_Minds]

Go roll an 8 str WF wizard, put a "+1 (Risia Frost) 2-hand of pure good" on it, and level it to 7th level using no offensive spells, just swinging and repair spells. Hard, elite, doesn't matter, I never miss, and kill things in 1-2 hits. After 7th level, swap to being a caster (Wall of Fire).

Swapping 2-handed sword for repeater really makes no difference from level 1-7. As you said originally, if this holds up to level 20, then you might have a complaint. But from 1-7, its no different than on live with 2-h fighting.

Many have wanted a RoF increase for a long long while. We may have gotten it with the current version of lama it sounds like. The faster RoF would make ranged a lot more fun, and fun is good for the game.
I do agree it could be over powered, but when you consider the HP let alone mob speed, is it? I don't know as I haven't experienced lama changes nor do I plan to.

[Zaodon]

Many have wanted a RoF increase for a long long while. We may have gotten it with the current version of lama it sounds like. The faster RoF would make ranged a lot more fun, and fun is good for the game.
I do agree it could be over powered, but when you consider the HP let alone mob speed, is it? I don't know as I haven't experienced lama changes nor do I plan to.

Yes, and really, my only point was that right now, on live, you can ignore your class skills and just 2-hand your way to level 7, even on a Wizard. I did Tear of Dhakaan Elite on a level 6 wizard with nothing but Masters Touch, regular Heroism potions, and repair spells, with a +1 Holy (Risia Frost) 2handed Sword of Pure Good, and I almost never missed. I don't see any issue with the new power of xbows and/or repeaters from levels 1-7, but I agree with Shade that we need more data on how it performs at higher levels to see if it scales up or not.