Secrets of the Craftingbots

[Jahmin]

Sort of.

In my opinion (whatever that's worth), it's fine to have a craftbot; it's not fine to encourage players to have a craftbot, which is what this system is doing.

Regarding what MadFloyd said:
It's certainly true that I'm stretching his words to apply here, but I don't think my interpretation is unreasonable. A craftbot that does not quest is a level 1 craftbot, which is a pretty useless craftbot (can't take dragonmark feats, gets no artificer bonus).

This change demands that every crafter be a capped (more or less) human artificer with 3 dragonmarks; this requires that the craftbot quest to get the exp needed to levelup, which goes against the (somewhat stretched) interpretation of MadFloyd's statement.

I do think it's the better of the two interpretations that you provided, soley because I doubt MadFloyd would be advocating the use of craftbots (another reason he should understand that the current change is a bad one).

The game encourages one to have a Hagglebot, but not everyone does for a number of reasons. That CHOICE is what is important. If you HAD to have one I would agree with you, but as that is not the case I do not see it as a problem. There are advantages to having one, just as there are disadvantages.

As for the craftbot itself, presumably like a Hagglebot it would be a Vet so you are looking at lvl4. You can get the first Making mark, and that would be at +5 right off the boat. Run Korthos and you are at Art6 with the second mark for +9. Pretty much the same amount of effort for a basic Hagglebot. Art10 with the third mark would give +15.

That said, it is clear that even as a lvl1 Cbot, you could still reach the crafting cap without earning a single point of XP questing – which is pretty much the definition of bot and goes nicely with the non-requirement for favour.

I do think that you are reading much more into his comments than is there. I do not believe he is advocating Craftbots, merely indicating that they will be supported.

[Jahmin]

Just because some theoretical, bizarre player that I doubt has ever existed might not choose to pursue XP and levels does not mean there is no reward or encouragement to do so.

You're simply denying anything resembling a remotely realistic view of the game at this point.

Wrong. On Sarlona there are at least a couple people that have chosen not to level. I believe there is at least one on another server as well (and did Tolero not have a character like this at some stage before she crossed over?) Indeed, there is an entire troupe of performers who gaggle outside my shop on a semi-regular basis and harass my customers (I kid, I kid! You guys do great work!)

Rewarding is not the same as encourage by the way Perhaps you should stick to a single argument rather than changing it after the fact. If you care about maximizing XP, then leveling is a very strategic decision. There is a potential reward for doing so, but it carries its own penalties as well.

Regardless, you have drifted so far off topic; I simply cannot follow you any farther.

It is obvious that the original mechanic rewarded crafting on an important questing character that will use the gear, not a crafting bot or other ancillary character that doesn't need the gear. I don't know how this is remotely up for debate.

Because quite frankly you do not have a leg to stand on. Theoretically the ‘best’ character to craft on is the one WITHOUT any other gear. Sure Holy Bane is a step up from Min2, but it is a massive leap from nothing. What are the latest Arty calcs? That giving the Silver infusion to Lit2 puts it back above HBgLOB? Frak lot of good all that crafting did you

Had I been dumb enough to fall into Turbine’s trap that is crafting that is how I would have maximized my return(s). Fact of the matter is that crafting COULD create some very specifically nice items, but it was hardly the panacea people were hoping for.

A "main", is well, main, and therefore more likely to actually use the items produced by the BtC crafting. Again, how is this not blatantly obvious?

Because you have allowed yourself to buy into your own hype, as shown above (and indeed as stated by others in this very thread) NOT crafting on a main could have been a much better choice even if this new component had not come along.

And again, BtA item crafting wasn't just exploitative, it was (and is) much more difficult than making BtC items, especially boss beaters. That, in and of itself, is incentive to craft on the character that will use the items.

Well not WAI does not automatically mean exploit and in any event we know it is not an exploit because 1) it does not fit the list, and far more importantly 2) we are allowed to talk about it.

It is also an incentive to grind out what you need. It was funny enough also an incentive to NOT CRAFT AT ALL. It was incentive for many things…

If a flat out "yes" from a Dev isn't enough for you, I have to question how you justify doing anything in the game. After all, to my knowledge, no Dev has ever said that they won't just delete all your characters. And even if they did, they could be lying!

Do you really want to go there? After all the ‘miscommunications’ they have had, you really think ‘yes’ could only mean ‘yes’? News flash: half the time half the Dev team does not know what the other half is doing – tongue in cheek of course, but there is so much contradictory information passed out (and sadly not even always to us) that it is hard to believe anything they say. Played Druids lately? Evasion? Enhancements? Oh wait those are all before your time… more recent examples, how many updates have had epic versions as of late? As a crafter surly you have created a paralyzing bastard sword by now… Given Turbine’s tendency for DISinformation, why would YOU believe anything they say? We even had a Dev (who has been proven to give wrong information before) comment in the crafting threads that s/he likes to obfuscate to torment players…

Regardless, as pointed out I feel that his response could as easily be interpreted as a current yes as as a perpetual yes – in which case caution would dictate that one would be wise to prepare for the more restrictive interpretation. In any event, that was said AFTER crafting went live, which means many took their chances and crafted on TRs. Would you be here whining if they had gone the other way on that? I certainly feel if you lose your tomes and all your other experience, then you should bloody well lose your crafting too

The ultimate irony here is what I actually ‘do’ in game

[Unreliable]

My overall opinion is...

Yeah it kind of sucks... New crafters get a pretty big bonus, but its not gamebreaking.

20 Levels of crafting may seem like a lot, but it really isnt. Its a couple of weeks for a hardcore player of questing, or a couple of months for a casual player.

Currently, getting to level 90/90/90 is the big target for bound crafting, and that translates to aprox. 77/77/77 on the live servers. It only took me about 3000 deconstructed items to get 70/70/70 so say it takes 4000 to get 77/77/77 it takes you around 2000 to get 57/57/57, so the ''big difference'' is around 2000 deconstructed items, which isnt too huge, like I said a couple weeks to months.

You can talk about how difference between 130 and 150 is giant, and it is, but right now I dont see that big of a need to get to 150 crafting unless you want to be the ''first one''.

Again, it would be nice to have equality, and I would love for the crafting stats to be an account/server stat instead of per character, but I wont ragequit if they dont change this.

[Feithlin]

Well, artificers' job is to craft. Cannith is their main house. And you feel it's unfair they get advantage on crafting? Why not ask the barb to be able to cast wail of the banshee, because it is unfair wizards can do that and not them?
Because someone gets a bonus doesn't make it a malus for you. The goal of the game isn't to be better than the other players.
Additionaly, a new crafter will suffer the u10.2 modifications to shards, which someone who leveled earlier didn't.

[Dandonk]

Well, artificers' job is to craft. Cannith is their main house. And you feel it's unfair they get advantage on crafting? Why not ask the barb to be able to cast wail of the banshee, because it is unfair wizards can do that and not them?
Because someone gets a bonus doesn't make it a malus for you. The goal of the game isn't to be better than the other players.
Additionaly, a new crafter will suffer the u10.2 modifications to shards, which someone who leveled earlier didn't.

Why shouldn't casters get craft bonus, then? Or high int?

What I'm saying is that a system that provides such massive account wide benefits should not depend on build. When it does, it benefits people to roll up a non-adventuring bot instead of a playing character. The build sacrifices you make on this craftbot has no influence on your other characters - only the benefits carry over.

What I'm saying is that a large segment of players who helped Turbine test their system should not be penalized to this degree - and yes, it's a penalty when my crafter has to start over or be even worse off than a newly started crafter. It's called game balance - if all other melee classes than fighter get a +20% bonus to damage, yes that fighter is penalized.

I did not have the chance to take advantage of the old shard prices, so that doesn't help me at all.

[Aesop]

I keep seeing the argument that they won't have to do the hard levels, but the only way that is true is if they stay level one until they reach crafting levels 130/130/130 and then Level up their character to 20 and take the DM Feats while not crafting the entire time. After that they will have bypassed the "tough" level... doing it any other way you would still be leveling through some of those "tough" levels.

Additionally they reduced the Crafting XP to level and that further reduces the effects of the 20 levels.

I'm not really a fan of the way these work out but it is in no way such a big deal to me and I will not be leveling up an Artificer for a Craftbot, just not my thing.

Aesop

[Deadlock]

I'm bored of this now.

Have read two full threads on crafting and all it's degenerated into is a circular argument on whether it's fair/unfair that you should/shouldn't have to create an artificer craftbot which does/doesn't invalidate all of your previous efforts. And whether beta is/isn't a fair/unfair description of the current state of crafting in live.

Artificer class can provide up to 20 temporary crafting levels. Whoop-de-doo. If you like crafting then this is a good thing for you. If you don't then it's irrelevant. I've capped multiple TR toons without crafted gear. I'm currently capping a TR with some crafted gear and it is nice to have stat buff item 2 levels lower than what's generally available. It's also nice to have some options to customise your gear so I have crafted a mithral plate with alchemical rituals, +3 natural armour and a medium guild augment slot. I also have a mithral tower shield with alchemical rituals, greater stability and a medium guild augment slot. It's nice to have but doesn't make or break the build. From level 5 onwards I inevitably wear Abishai gear, and from level 11 onwards I'll be using my greensteel stuff and from then on I'm going through my reincarnation cache and pulling out other high level gear. Crafted gear might fill in any equipment gaps, but I can't ever see myself going from 1 to 20 with every slot equipped with something I've bashed out myself.

I'll be TRing my main as an Artificer and might even do it on his next life. While he's an artificer, I'll take advantage of the +20 crafting levels to make a bundle of the higher level shards that I think might be useful to me. I'll then TR him away from Artificer and onto something else. I might then use the shards that I created while an Artificer if I remember they're there.

Crafting is a semi-useful nice-to-have, glad we've got it in some shape or form, but IMO I'd like to see the developer focus move onto something else now. For new players, by the time you can make something useful, you'll have undoubtedly pulled better gear from questing. For experienced players, you'll already have better stuff or the means to buy it from the AH, or you've already managed to survive without it.

My main's crafting levels are 64/50/54, so I'd like to think I've spent enough time with the crafting system that I've got a balanced view of the effort and cost required.

Artificers get extra levels. Use it to your advantage if you can. If you can't use it to your advantage, then the reality is that you won't be any worse off

[Full_Bleed]

20 Levels of crafting may seem like a lot

It is a lot.

Turbine should have never deviated from the D&D 3.5 crafting system if this single class-focused coup-de-grace was going to be the result. My guess is that others got a hold of someone's novel class/race/build-neutral concept and corrupted it for some misguided short-term profits. I understand that they wanted to sell their latest and greatest class, but this isn't the way they had to do it.

But, good for them.

All it cost was a little good will from the most ardent supporters of their crafting system thus far. While the early adopters who have poured an inordinate amount of time, effort, virtual money/resources, and real money into the system have little to cheer about, they will be wiser for it. Things like this always pay dividends down the road when people are making decisions about what to spend their money on next.

To those of you that have a problem with it, you just need to learn how to vote with your wallets like people do in the real world. Across the two accounts I pay for, I am committed to not buying any more Crafting related products. Nor will I purchase the Artificer Class. If you reward Turbine for a decision you know to be in poor form, then you deserve more of the same in the future. This isn't the first misstep in crafting and it won't be the last.


They really had so much more to gain by allowing new Artificers to usurp the crafting XP on an account.

[Crann]

Fyi, I did spend time and money on crafting. I will make a craftbot at some point. I didn't feel like I needed max crafting level to help with the beta test. I choose not to risk a major change and waste my time knowing it was in a constant state of flux. I had patience, even if it ends up costing me more time and money in the end. Greed got the best of you.

This is a good point.

I did the same, just deconnned trash loot, never spent a single plat, except at the Crafting Vendor. I am around level 50 in everything, and have made alot of useful stuff. I have wasted no time, and have along the way provided useful feedback through bug reports and forum discussions.

I could never understand people spending all their time and fortunes to reach a few dozen higher levels on a system that gives you a "BETA" warning everytime you use it.

Even without the "BETA" designation, people should be aware by now that Turbine can and will change the nature of the game mechanics from time to time. If you don't think that's the case, I know a Dex Ranger with a few WOP's to sell you.

As for the argument of crafting being tied to a class or a race that is a separate issue.

There has been a change, do you rush to the new flavor of the month, ala Monster ---> Blizt, and again dump all your time/resources into it?

Or do you wait, with your slightly less powerful crafter to see where the nerf/buff hammer lands next?

[jojje_b]

This is a good point.

I did the same, just deconnned trash loot, never spent a single plat, except at the Crafting Vendor. I am around level 50 in everything, and have made alot of useful stuff. I have wasted no time, and have along the way provided useful feedback through bug reports and forum discussions.

I could never understand people spending all their time and fortunes to reach a few dozen higher levels on a system that gives you a "BETA" warning everytime you use it.

Even without the "BETA" designation, people should be aware by now that Turbine can and will change the nature of the game mechanics from time to time. If you don't think that's the case, I know a Dex Ranger with a few WOP's to sell you.

As for the argument of crafting being tied to a class or a race that is a separate issue.

There has been a change, do you rush to the new flavor of the month, ala Monster ---> Blizt, and again dump all your time/resources into it?

Or do you wait, with your slightly less powerful crafter to see where the nerf/buff hammer lands next?

ive done the same as you, spent no resources on it either. but my usual source of income, selling trash loot, has been completely gone during this entire period so slowly but surely my plat has gone from 3 million to about 50k so indirectly ive spend enormous amounts of plat that on it. so even though i dont think its that big of a deal i still think the people who have helped testing something should rather be rewarded than penalized, it is a penalty, even though its not a big deal.

the real problem is that the best crafter will be the one that is made ONLY for crafting. a character that will be leveled up to 20 and then never used for anything other than crafting ever again.

[Abitar]

you can always TR you main crafter on live and level up to 3 level human arti and get all 3 marks and retire it to crafting

Since your saying that an arti get 10 to level auto and the 3 marks give you 10 and you can get 3 marks by level 4 easy

[gloopygloop]

you can always TR you main crafter on live and level up to 3 level human arti and get all 3 marks and retire it to crafting

Since your saying that an arti get 10 to level auto and the 3 marks give you 10 and you can get 3 marks by level 4 easy

1) TR'ing your main crafter into a gimpy craftbot is essentially throwing away a character. If you weren't that fond of your character in the first place, then that's really not a problem. If that's one of your favorite characters, then it's a big problem.

2) You can't take all three dragonmarks by level 4.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Dragonmarks
The Lesser Dragonmarks are ML 6.
The Greater Dragonmarks are ML 9.
At that point, you might as well go to 10 for the one extra crafting level.

[TheRealest]

....we're now getting shafted.....

Is this really the first time people have said that about the crafting system? Everyone will quiet down once update goes live as usual.

[Maxallu]

Don't really care.


Crafting is in BETA, craft at your own risk. You knew things like this could happen. Please unwad underwear.

[Caseas]

Yeah, I always wanted us each to be able to have a separate NPC crafter type henchman that we would basically offload our crafting to and 'level' that guy. I never considered crafting much of a heroic PC trait, even in PnP, where it just takes too much in-game time. I would argue it takes too much in-game time in DDO too. Let me dump ingredients on my henchman, issue some commands, and come back and pick up his crafted gear in a week.

In Star Wars: The Old Republic that will exist.

[fandutian]

So, looks like everyone who cares at all about crafting will be leveling a Human Dragonmarked Artificer crafting bot. +20CL is a massive bonus.

I, for one, look forward to abandoning my existing crafter, and capping a new character I'll never quest with ever again


Please, Devs, if you absolutely have to go back on your previous statements that build would be separate from crafting, at least let us transfer our existing crafting XP to our new crafting bots. Please don't punish your early adopters like this. Remember that when you first introduced crafting, you explicitly encouraged us to do it on our mains, since it was BtC.

i thought when you tr you get to keep your crafting level? would be nice to be able to transfer crafting experience to other toon. but i really doubt turbine will ever do it.. atleast not without costing ton of tp..