Secrets of the Craftingbots

[Seikojin]

Let me get thsi straight:
You can craft to level 150 with any character, any class... But as an artificer, you can get to that earlier... And that is bad? I don't see the problem.

What you do with your characters is your choice. If you specifically build a human arty to get the most from crafting, more power to you. It does not affect anyone at all negatively, so I see no problem.

If you buy the arty, then you know you can craft more advanced stuff earlier, but in the end, you craft the same level of stuff as anyone else.

The only real boon would be if at 150, there was a failure chance in crafting. An arty would eliminate that.

But if 150 = 100% for all shards, then there is no serious benifit for speccing an arty for crafting.

This is like someone who is speeding down the road while you go the speed limit. When you get to the light, you are both stopped. So what is the point of speeding or going slow?

[Jahmin]

False.
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Relea...tch_1_Official

Wrong – Shade’s post is still there (and indeed he references the ability to this day) describing how crafting launched with BtA capabilities.

I have no plans to TR my crafter. We've also gone long enough that this decision seems to have been made. That statement was made well before crafting went live.

And as we see here, crafting is still in Beta and that COULD change.

And a quick read of the 3.5 PHB would show that crafting requires feats, and can only be done by spellcasters.

Did this happen? No. A reasonable person might surmise that DDO's crafting would differ from PnP crafter.

Yes, and a reasonable person might have noticed that crafting was different from PnP, but that does not also mean that a crafting class would suddenly not have its major benefit

Giving up three feats for no remotely significant benefit gimps a character, as far as I'm concerned.

Well, I guess it is a good thing not everyone agrees with you then

Sorry, but those feats are simply junk, especially for an Artifcer (since they get the spells anyway), as far as actual questing goes.

Maybe

as far as you're (sic) concerned

but having the spells does not invalidate having the feats. Healing Marked Clerics for example… having a secondary timer can be very useful. Marks may not give much benefit, but they do indeed give some.

Ultimately, you have not addressed the central issue of your complaint: where did they say crafting would be the same for all races & classes?

[Postumus]

Can we have Artificer hirelings? That way I don't have to go back to that noisy Willy Wonka machine any more.

Yeah it's like that everlasting gobstopper machine crossed with a slot machine.

[dkyle]

"Mob" is singular and is actually an abbreviation for "mobile object". It's a holdover term from MUDs and early MMORPG coding terms. It's a common misconception among newer players that the actual WORD "mob" is being used, but it's not the dictionary word.

Yes, that is the etymology for the current usage of the word.

It's still the same word, just a different definition.

In any event, it appears there was a misunderstanding. I thought "loot" was a very common and well known slang for "item", but perhaps not as common as I thought.

[Indoran]

This is like someone who is speeding down the road while you go the speed limit. When you get to the light, you are both stopped. So what is the point of speeding or going slow?

ok the point is that one is driving a lamborghini and the other one is driving a fiat...

or in other figure of speech: its millions of plat cheaper to hit the limit...

[Mister_Peace]

crafting is in beta. Craft at your own risk.

Beta never involves paying money. Crafting can involve paying money. Ergo, crafting is not in beta.

[KillEveryone]

Beta never involves paying money. Crafting can involve paying money. Ergo, crafting is not in beta.

You do not have to pay any money to craft.

You can still do it without any DDO store purchase.

[gloopygloop]

These calculations do not pertain to essence cost. They are purely based on crafting XP.

Given that essence per XP increases tremendously at higher levels, figuring the break even point in essences would end up with a substantially different number.

I do appreciate the post, though. It makes figuring the cost of keeping your current primary crafter vs. abandoning your current primary crafter easier to figure even without that extra bit factored in.

One other thing to consider, though, is the potential to TR into a Human Artificer craftbot with an existing character. I'd absolutely be willing to do that if my primary crafter weren't already my character with the absolute best gear among all of my characters, but with only gear that an Artificer wouldn't actually find useful.

[Rodasch]

Beta never involves paying money. Crafting can involve paying money. Ergo, crafting is not in beta.

Can =/= must

Many betas give the option to spend money, but don't require it. They simply reward the cash expenditure somehow when the beta period is over in most cases, either by allowing them to keep what they paid for in beta, or by some other means.

[Hoglum]

Yeah it's like that everlasting gobstopper machine crossed with a slot machine.

They should have that thing spewing suds while you craft. Then when you leave you're nice and clean again.

[gloopygloop]

Let me get thsi straight:
You can craft to level 150 with any character, any class... But as an artificer, you can get to that earlier... And that is bad? I don't see the problem.

What you do with your characters is your choice. If you specifically build a human arty to get the most from crafting, more power to you. It does not affect anyone at all negatively, so I see no problem.

If you buy the arty, then you know you can craft more advanced stuff earlier, but in the end, you craft the same level of stuff as anyone else.

The only real boon would be if at 150, there was a failure chance in crafting. An arty would eliminate that.

But if 150 = 100% for all shards, then there is no serious benifit for speccing an arty for crafting.

This is like someone who is speeding down the road while you go the speed limit. When you get to the light, you are both stopped. So what is the point of speeding or going slow?

Imagine a new Fighter-only Feat that added 20d6 base per swing.

All the other classes can still do everything that they could do before, so why are they suddenly complaining and whining about "game balance" and things like that? Sure, Fighters can kill things faster now than they could before, but everyone else can still complete quests too, so there's no problem, right? I mean, why are people complaining about a bonus? Bonuses are good things, aren't they?

[Khurse]

Imagine a new Fighter-only Feat that added 20d6 base per swing.
Bonuses are good things, aren't they?

And it would be, as long as every other class has the option of working towards the +20d6 to every swing bonus.

Your example would work fine if Turbine was suggesting that everyone got to craft to level 150, Artifcers or DMs, got to craft to 160,Artificers with Dm's 170.

So far they haven't done that.
All they've said so far is that Artificer and DM's get a bonus to crafting levels.
If someone wants to take advantage of that bonus, they can, if they want to continue playing their established crafter they can as well. Both can eventually hit the same mark.

[gloopygloop]

Thanks to everyone’s second favorite Barbarian we actually know this to be false. Crafting has ALWAYS been BtA, and if you choose to NOT take that into consideration THAT was a POOR decision. Also, the Devs indicated that crafting XP maybe reset upon TR (and indeed, it probably should) so given that was up in the air why in Eberron would you craft on a character you plan to TR in the first place?!?!?

Do you not remember when crafting launched? All shards were BtC when crafting launched. I was there. I made a crafter.

Shards were changed to BtA AFTER crafting launched and there was much rejoycing, but it was BtC when it first launched. That's why I picked my Fighter as my primary crafter - because I wanted to craft Pit Fiend beaters for him and I knew that I couldn't do that with another character as my primary crafter if it stayed BtC. We all certainly *hoped* that it would change to BtA and there was a workaround for some equipment because any items that *started* as BtA remained BtA, but the shards themselves and all regular, unbound items crafted with those shards were *ALL* BtC when crafting was first introduced.

Crafting was not always BtA. Please don't try to claim that again.

[dkyle]

Wrong – Shade’s post is still there (and indeed he references the ability to this day) describing how crafting launched with BtA capabilities.

Ah, yes, the exploit. Forgot about that.

Sorry, but expecting us to plan crafting around an obvious exploit is just ridiculous.

Besides, using that exploit is vastly more difficult than crafting what you want on the character you want it on. In particular, the most worthwhile item crafting has available, boss beaters, require getting the right BtA special metal weapons, which is a huge grind to get.

And as we see here, crafting is still in Beta and that COULD change.

That doesn't justify any and all reason for it to change.

Yes, and a reasonable person might have noticed that crafting was different from PnP, but that does not also mean that a crafting class would suddenly not have its major benefit

I'd say crafting is a huge benefit to PnP Wizards. It was removed.

And Artificers losing their crafting bonus isn't unprecedented. 4E Artificers did. And the bonus that DDO Artificers are getting is vastly less significant than what PnP Artificers got.

Ultimately, you have not addressed the central issue of your complaint: where did they say crafting would be the same for all races & classes?

This is the clearest indication, which I took as confirmation of my already held belief that the Devs knew what they were doing when they didn't give casters bonuses to crafting: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=21

This one is a little more indirect, but serves as confirmation that the Devs recognized the importance of keeping the character separate from the crafting: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...0&postcount=39

I also recall an indication that we'd get to keep any crafting levels achieved, but I can't find it. Now, technically, we do get to keep our crafting levels. But making them basically worthless isn't exactly keeping with that in spirit.

But overall, the biggest confirmation was: we went many months with many modifications to the crafting system with nothing added that made build matter for crafting, and a patch was even modified to keep character separate from crafting (removing BtC gear and favor potions). Actions speak louder than words, and those were some very significant actions, in a lot of ways unprecedented.

[Postumus]

The fact that Turbine (and all of their defenders) are hiding behind the "Its a Beta" statement, like that excuses them of everything.

Proper Betas, don't go Live as a Beta, and also if this system REALLY was a 'Beta', they wouldn't have in good conscious then added things regarding crafting into the DDO Store...but they did.

The 'Proper Beta' argument is moot since it is a separate argument.


An incomplete, still changing system was made available to players to sample and test in the live environment.


I don't think people are excusing Turbine so much as they are reminding the posters who are worked up over this that "everyone including Turbine told you this was an unfinished product subject to change, so use it at your own risk." For goodness sakes you get a big warning message every time you enter the hall.


If people choose to ignore the warnings and invest time in a character focused on an unfinished, still changing, not fully supported game mechanic that was made available for players to sample and test, then that's their risk.


Those players might win big, or those players might slog through a lot of garbage that subsequent players won't have to. That's the risk of being an early adopter in anything.

[Postumus]

They should have that thing spewing suds while you craft. Then when you leave you're nice and clean again.

Yeah that car thing. That's what it sounds like. You just get a little rock at the end like the gobstopper machine.


I wish those crafting machines did clean you while you crafted. I feel so dirty after making a +4 unholy of chaotic outsider bane. Poor Eladrin.

[Seikojin]

ok the point is that one is driving a lamborghini and the other one is driving a fiat...

or in other figure of speech: its millions of plat cheaper to hit the limit...

See below...

You do not have to pay any money to craft.

You can still do it without any DDO store purchase.

Imagine a new Fighter-only Feat that added 20d6 base per swing.

All the other classes can still do everything that they could do before, so why are they suddenly complaining and whining about "game balance" and things like that? Sure, Fighters can kill things faster now than they could before, but everyone else can still complete quests too, so there's no problem, right? I mean, why are people complaining about a bonus? Bonuses are good things, aren't they?

This is comparing Apples to oranges really. Crafting and getting a boost to crafting does not change your path to 20 as a character. Nor does it affect combat in the direct sense. So I don't see the comparison outside of just saying it is a boost where one isn't for everyone.

In that sense, why can't a pure fighter cast spells from a mana pool they don't have?

[gloopygloop]

I don't think people are excusing Turbine so much as they are reminding the posters who are worked up over this that "everyone including Turbine told you this was an unfinished product subject to change, so use it at your own risk." For goodness sakes you get a big warning message every time you enter the hall.

I'm wondering why Turbine doesn't mark the mailboxes and banks as being in "BETA" since they are also use-at-your-own-risk and Turbine doesn't offer any support for them. That way, we could have Postumus and others leaping to Turbine's defense every time someone lost an item or a bag during a bank lag spike.

[Khurse]

Ah, yes, the exploit. Forgot about that.

Sorry, but expecting us to plan crafting around an obvious exploit is just ridiculous.

Besides, using that exploit is vastly more difficult than crafting what you want on the character you want it on. In particular, the most worthwhile item crafting has available, boss beaters, require getting the right BtA special metal weapons, which is a huge grind to get.



That doesn't justify any and all reason for it to change.



I'd say crafting is a huge benefit to PnP Wizards. It was removed.

And Artificers losing their crafting bonus isn't unprecedented. 4E Artificers did. And the bonus that DDO Artificers are getting is vastly less significant than what PnP Artificers got.



This is the clearest indication, which I took as confirmation of my already held belief that the Devs knew what they were doing when they didn't give casters bonuses to crafting: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=21

This one is a little more indirect, but serves as confirmation that the Devs recognized the importance of keeping the character separate from the crafting: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...0&postcount=39

I also recall an indication that we'd get to keep any crafting levels achieved, but I can't find it. Now, technically, we do get to keep our crafting levels. But making them basically worthless isn't exactly keeping with that in spirit.

But overall, the biggest confirmation was: we went many months with many modifications to the crafting system with nothing added that made build matter for crafting, and a patch was even modified to keep character separate from crafting (removing BtC gear and favor potions). Actions speak louder than words, and those were some very significant actions, in a lot of ways unprecedented.

Uhmm, do you have anything better?
I had taken you guys at what you said that the devs said there wouldn't be any class/crafting bonuses.
That does not in any way say or even suggest) that to me.
Those quotes say "Thanks for the feedback, we're listening, we know your time is valuable so please continue to hold"

Removing BTC items from crafting was a good choice because it kept characters who didn't run that content fromc rafting items.
There's a fairly substantial difference between saying
" We want all crafters to have the potential to access all recipes" and "characters/builds will have no impact on how easy it is to gain crafting levels whatsoever"

[Postumus]

I just find it amazing that you can't see how someone else could reasonably make their main character (who could USE BtC crafted items) their crafter.

Because it was an unfinished system? Because Turbine told us there would be changes? Because there is no way to know for sure how this will end up?

You pays your money, you takes your chance.