Secrets of the Craftingbots

[dkyle]

This isn't about loot. It is about crafting and the artificer.

Crafting is completely and totally about "loot". The whole point of crafting is to produce items. You can't discuss a crafting system without involving the items it produces.

[Aaxeyu]

??

Again, some people will level a toon to cap that they don't enjoy because they do appreciate the incentive of the crafting bonus more than the disincentive of leveling a toon they don't like.

Some people will rather level a toon they're going to play (be it artificer or something else) and craft on that toon.

Some people will level a toon (artificer or not) and not bother crafting at all.

It's all up to the player to weigh the various pros and cons, it's about choice.
If someone chooses to do something that's not fun, regardless of whether they derive some benefit from it or not, that is their choice.

Again, I think choice is a good thing for the game.

It's a mistake to think that choice is always good for the game. A fun and/or interesting choice is good, but a choice of plauge or cholera is generally not so good.

Or they could implement it so that if you stand still in the market place and jump 1000000000 times you get bonuses to stats.
It would be everyones individual choice to do so, but do you really think it would bring anything good to the game?

[KillEveryone]

Crafting is completely and totally about "loot". The whole point of crafting is to produce items. You can't discuss a crafting system without involving the items it produces.

Crafting isn't about loot.

You can discuss the artificer and crafting without talking about loot.

Loot is stuff you get in chests that include but not limited to items.

The whole point of crafting is to produce something that I can use.

You do not make loot.

[Chette]

Uggg, my crafter is one of my main characters on their 5th life as a caster. I'm not sacrificing all the uber I've put into that character to make them better at crafting.

The best way for the devs to fix this issue is to make your crafting XP account based, not character based. They have said multiple times that the intent of crafting is that you only need one crafter to make items for all your account characters. The only thing that making it be character based does for crafting right now is add the frustration of having to move items around in your bank. There is no reason to make the crafting xp character based, and with this new artificer and dragonmark bonus there is even more reason to make it account based.

[Cordovan]

Focus on the topic, not each other's opinions. Further insults or attacks directed at other players may force us to close this thread.

[dkyle]

Loot is stuff you get in chests that include but not limited to items.

What's next, arguing with people who use the term "mob" for a single enemy? Or "toon" for characters who are clearly not cartoons? Or "Barbs" that are not pointy plant parts?

Loot is slang for items in DDO, as in most MMOs. All items. It was clearly used in that regard.

Chests are a way to get items. Crafting is a way to get items. They're both "loot systems" that produce "loot".

[Jahmin]

First, is anyone able to actually link the Dev statement that crafting would always be race/class agnostic? Or even a statement to the effect of that was their intention? I have not been able to find one, but my search-fu is admittedly weak. Frankly if you cannot then your arguments are pretty much for naught.

Again, a crafter bot just for crafting was completely worthless when crafting was released...
So no, you didn't plan ahead...
I just find it amazing that you can't see how someone else could reasonably make their main character (who could USE BtC crafted items) their crafter.

Thanks to everyone’s second favorite Barbarian we actually know this to be false. Crafting has ALWAYS been BtA, and if you choose to NOT take that into consideration THAT was a POOR decision. Also, the Devs indicated that crafting XP maybe reset upon TR (and indeed, it probably should) so given that was up in the air why in Eberron would you craft on a character you plan to TR in the first place?!?!?

So yes, he did plan ahead by creating a crafter and I think anyone that crafted on characters that they plan to TR are asinine – but I do not begrudge them their right to do so.

Look, I semi-agree that this isn't THAT horrible a thing for people who already have crafters... They still have their crafting levels... They can still be very good at it... Just slower than people who roll up new crafting focused characters.

And I believe this is their point: could being a craftbot help? Maybe – and in some cases it might make sense to re-start, but certainly not in all and definitely not slower.

I vehemently disagree that they didn't plan ahead, and you were a genius who saw the obvious future.

I would agree it certainly did not take a genius to figure out that Crafting & House Cannith meant that Artificers were coming. A quick read of the Eberron Campaign Sourcebook shows them to be master crafters with bonuses to crafting. It is not a huge leap to conclude that they might have some advantage to crafting. Indeed, one can read this very speculation on the live crafting forums. I can accept this is beyond the ‘full-retard’ crowd, but anyone that did not dump their mental stats can see there is some logic there, and thus failing to plan is indeed planning to fail.

People make Haggle bots for the sake of a few percents of plat.

Crafting bots are vastly more potent. And you think it's some crazy assumption they'll get made?

Certainly they will be – he has even admitted he has one! That is not an issue – whether a (human) Artificer is vastly more potent is; and many believe that it is not.

Yes, but for a crafting bot, the crafting possibilities are all that matter. Once you've spent three feats on the DMarks, your character is already gimped for questing compared to a character that didn't. You're already disincentivized to play the character for real. If you want to actually play an Artificer, you're better off making an additional one, that isn't a crafting bot.

Right here is part of your problem – it is hard to support you when one of your basic facts upon which you base your arguments is wrong. Spending 3 feats on Dragonmarks simply does NOT gimp a character, least of all a Human. 5 feats are more than enough to address your primary party role. In addition the Marks of Making themselves are far from useless on an Artificer outside of crafting: not only do they increase your repair score but they allow you to cast Repair Light, Repair Serious and Reconstruct – certainly useful for a Construct pet class…

YOU may feel that unless you are 100% full ****** the character is not worth playing, and obviously this would be a disincentive for YOU to playing that character, but it simply is not true for everyone.

Ultimately I can understand you feel slighted by these changes, and I agree that launching something live and charging money for it means it is not really a beta – indeed, it is why I have been completely opposed to crafting from the start – but a lack of foresight and build ignorance is hardly the end of Eberron and does not make this addition bad just because.

[Khurse]

It's a mistake to think that choice is always good for the game. A fun and/or interesting choice is good, but a choice of plauge or cholera is generally not so good.

Or they could implement it so that if you stand still in the market place and jump 1000000000 times you get bonuses to stats.
It would be everyones individual choice to do so, but do you really think it would bring anything good to the game?

Wow, where do these analogies keep coming from?
Assuming we are still discussing the Artificer bonus in DDO, and I'm not suddenly being accused of supporting someone's choice of committing genocide or ending human life on Earth.

I presented my arguments, I said it's up to teh person to choose, they can choose to

- Ignore crafting all together
- Start a new artificer they may hate playing,level it to 20, and never play that toon again
- Start a new artificer they love, level it to 20 and make it their main
- Craft on a non artificer they like playing
- Craft on a non artificer they hate playing
- and probably a few hundred more variations

I don't really care what someone else chooses to do, if they want to level an artificer simply for the purpose of crafting, that's their choice. It's not going to be the same choice as everyone else,it is not the only choice for someone to make in regards to crafting.

[gloopygloop]

Focus on the topic, not each other's opinions. Further insults or attacks directed at other players may force us to close this thread.

Can you tell us what we need to post in order to get some Turbine feedback on the idea of allowing a one time transfer of crafting XP to another character on the same account so that we can actually make use of these new dragonmarks and Artificer craft-bot characters?

...because that's the information we actually need from Turbine. We've known how to get threads closed for a long time now. We didn't need you to tell us how to do that.

[KillEveryone]

Chests are a way to get items. Crafting is a way to get items. They're both "loot systems" that produce "loot".

You are not producing loot.

You are not making plat.

You are not making scrolls/wands/potions...yet and hopefully this will be added.

You are making a product that you can sell for plat but that isn't loot. That is a product of goods and services.

Loot is from chests that happen to include items.

I'm not discussing loot.

I'm discussing the changes to the game that has to do with leveling a crafter that is artificer VS. a crafter that is not.

[Jahmin]

What's next, arguing with people who use the term "mob" for a single enemy?

Mob is singular

[dkyle]

Thanks to everyone’s second favorite Barbarian we actually know this to be false. Crafting has ALWAYS been BtA, and if you choose to NOT take that into consideration THAT was a POOR decision.

False.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Relea...tch_1_Official

Bound crafting shards are now Bound to Account instead of Bound to Character.

Before the patch, they were BtC. I believe I even still have some BtC shards on my Crafter.

Also, the Devs indicated that crafting XP maybe reset upon TR (and indeed, it probably should) so given that was up in the air why in Eberron would you craft on a character you plan to TR in the first place?!?!?

I have no plans to TR my crafter. We've also gone long enough that this decision seems to have been made. That statement was made well before crafting went live.

I would agree it certainly did not take a genius to figure out that Crafting & House Cannith meant that Artificers were coming. A quick read of the Eberron Campaign Sourcebook shows them to be master crafters with bonuses to crafting.

And a quick read of the 3.5 PHB would show that crafting requires feats, and can only be done by spellcasters.

Did this happen? No. A reasonable person might surmise that DDO's crafting would differ from PnP crafter.

I thought they implemented crafting as they did because they understood that linking crafting with character build is a terrible idea. Apparently, that wasn't the case.

YOU may feel that unless you are 100% full ****** the character is not worth playing, and obviously this would be a disincentive for YOU to playing that character, but it simply is not true for everyone.

Giving up three feats for no remotely significant benefit gimps a character, as far as I'm concerned. I don't demand 100% full DPS or whatever, but I do expect intelligent choices that gain something worthwhile for what's given up. In fact, I doubt I have a single character that would fit the popular perception of "optimal".

Sorry, but those feats are simply junk, especially for an Artifcer (since they get the spells anyway), as far as actual questing goes.

[dkyle]

Mob is singular

Conventionally, it's a singular term that refers to a group of people.

Whereas in DDO, it's commonly used to refer to a single enemy, and in the plural form "mobs" to a group of enemies.

Sort of like how, conventionally, "loot" refers specifically to plunder taken. Whereas in DDO, it's commonly used to refer to items in general.

As in, "I've got some pretty good loot on this character" would generally refer to all items, including crafted items, not just those taken from chests.

[Iwinbyrollup]

Can you tell us what we need to post in order to get some Turbine feedback on the idea of allowing a one time transfer of crafting XP to another character on the same account so that we can actually make use of these new dragonmarks and Artificer craft-bot characters?

...because that's the information we actually need from Turbine. We've known how to get threads closed for a long time now. We didn't need you to tell us how to do that.

This.

Don't punish your early adopters for failing to predict something that you guys could easily have warned us was coming. The only thing you'll manage for it is convincing the early adopters not to do your beta testing for you next time around.

The one thing about Turbine that bothers me than anything else is the lack of transparency. I realize that a lot of it is because a) everything devs say gets taken as gospel and b) forumites have a tendency to get edgy about things, but even a vague message like, "We're considering giving crafting bonuses to specific builds" would have made a HUGE difference.

[Schmoe]

Here are some back-of-the-napkin calculations to compare whether it's better to keep your existing crafter, or to create a new one. These calculations use the XP leveling costs from the current wiki. These calculations also ignore any opportunity cost of actually capping a new crafter. These calculations do not pertain to essence cost. They are purely based on crafting XP.

First, the sum from x=1 to x=N of x is equal to N(N+1)/2.

The crafting XP cost of leveling from level N to level N+1 is roughly N*10. We can factor out the 10 as a constant and say that the cost of leveling from level N to level N+1 is equal to N. Therefore, the cost of leveling from level 1 to N equals:

N(N+1)/2

Likewise, if you are already at a level C, the cost of leveling from C to N is equal to the cost of leveling from 1 to N, minus the cost of leveling from 1 to C. So leveling C to N for most characters equals:

N(N+1)/2 - C(C+1)/2

Because the most efficient crafter (a human artificer with dragonmark feats) can get up to a +20 to crafter level, his target level is effectively 20 levels lower than the target level for others. However, nobody has an artificer right now. So if someone wants to reach a target of N with an artificer, they need to start from crafting level 1. Therefore, the cost of leveling the artificer is equal to:

(N-20)(N-19)/2


Let's say we have a target of crafting level 100. What is the current crafting level of my character where it would be cheaper to re-roll as a human artificer? This is the point where the cost of leveling from my current level to the target is more than the cost of leveling an artificer from 1 to the target.

N(N+1)/2 - C(C+1)/2 > (N-20)(N-19)/2

With some reduction and substitution, you find that the breakpoint is where C^2 + C - 3620 = 0. Complete the square to find that the breakpoint is roughly where your current crafting level is 60. So if you have a current crafting level of 61, and you want to reach a crafting level of 100, you are better off sticking with your current character.

What if your target crafting level is 150? Using the same method, C^2 + C - 5620 = 0, so the breakpoint is a crafting level of 75. With a current crafting level of 75 or higher, if you want to cap your crafting, you are better off sticking with your existing character.

Even if you have reached a crafting level of 50, the difference between what it takes to cap your current character and what it takes to cap an optimal artificer is only about 15,350 XP. Is that worth a character slot and the time to cap a character?

Keep in mind, also, that currently Lammania has reduced crafting XP required for leveling. That reduces the difference in cost across the board and makes the opportunity cost of a character slot and capping a crafter more significant.

[KillEveryone]

And a quick read of the 3.5 PHB would show that crafting requires feats, and can only be done by spellcasters.

Did this happen? No. A reasonable person might surmise that DDO's crafting would differ from PnP crafter.

I thought they implemented crafting as they did because they understood that linking crafting with character build is a terrible idea. Apparently, that wasn't the case.

I think it would have made more sense if they required the class to be divine to level the divine school, arcane for the arcane school, and split the elemental between the two schools.

In order to make a item that had both schools, two characters would have to be at a particular imbuing alter with the right ingredients.

But that is just me.

Another version would require several people of a certain ability to be present for the ritual to add their skill to make something.

[KillEveryone]

Conventionally, it's a singular term that refers to a group of people.

Whereas in DDO, it's commonly used to refer to a single enemy, and in the plural form "mobs" to a group of enemies.

Sort of like how, conventionally, "loot" refers specifically to plunder taken. Whereas in DDO, it's commonly used to refer to items in general.

As in, "I've got some pretty good loot on this character" would generally refer to all items, including crafted items, not just those taken from chests.

I've not used loot in that sense. I would say I have some pretty good gear on this character instead.

If I'm referring to chests, I'll say loot.

If I'm referring to crafting, I'll say crafting.

[KillEveryone]

Here are some back-of-the-napkin calculations to compare whether it's better to keep your existing crafter, or to create a new one. These calculations use the XP leveling costs from the current wiki. These calculations also ignore any opportunity cost of actually capping a new crafter. These calculations do not pertain to essence cost. They are purely based on crafting XP.

First, the sum from x=1 to x=N of x is equal to N(N+1)/2.

The crafting XP cost of leveling from level N to level N+1 is roughly N*10. We can factor out the 10 as a constant and say that the cost of leveling from level N to level N+1 is equal to N. Therefore, the cost of leveling from level 1 to N equals:

N(N+1)/2

Likewise, if you are already at a level C, the cost of leveling from C to N is equal to the cost of leveling from 1 to N, minus the cost of leveling from 1 to C. So leveling C to N for most characters equals:

N(N+1)/2 - C(C+1)/2

Because the most efficient crafter (a human artificer with dragonmark feats) can get up to a +20 to crafter level, his target level is effectively 20 levels lower than the target level for others. However, nobody has an artificer right now. So if someone wants to reach a target of N with an artificer, they need to start from crafting level 1. Therefore, the cost of leveling the artificer is equal to:

(N-20)(N-19)/2


Let's say we have a target of crafting level 100. What is the current crafting level of my character where it would be cheaper to re-roll as a human artificer? This is the point where the cost of leveling from my current level to the target is more than the cost of leveling an artificer from 1 to the target.

N(N+1)/2 - C(C+1)/2 > (N-20)(N-19)/2

With some reduction and substitution, you find that the breakpoint is where C^2 + C - 3620 = 0. Complete the square to find that the breakpoint is roughly where your current crafting level is 60. So if you have a current crafting level of 61, and you want to reach a crafting level of 100, you are better off sticking with your current character.

What if your target crafting level is 150? Using the same method, C^2 + C - 5620 = 0, so the breakpoint is a crafting level of 75. With a current crafting level of 75 or higher, if you want to cap your crafting, you are better off sticking with your existing character.

Even if you have reached a crafting level of 50, the difference between what it takes to cap your current character and what it takes to cap an optimal artificer is only about 15,350 XP. Is that worth a character slot and the time to cap a character?

Keep in mind, also, that currently Lammania has reduced crafting XP required for leveling. That reduces the difference in cost across the board and makes the opportunity cost of a character slot and capping a crafter more significant.

Now this is what I'm looking for.

If crafting levels stayed the way they are, I'd end up re-rolling anyway because I'm only 61 in one school with the others about 55.

Curious to what the break point would be with the new crafting levels.

[Postumus]

I can live with this.

I don't see the problem.

Crafting is in beta. Craft at your own risk.

If you want to take advantage of the crafting artificer offers, TR your character into that class or roll a new one.

Crafting is in beta. Craft at your own risk. Turbine can make changes to anything at any time. It is their game.

Ditto. Ditto. Ditto.

No one is forcing anyone to craft.

Crafting is in beta. Craft at your own risk.

Early crafters benefited from shard decon xps and cheaper recipes with more available ingredients (no purified shards, soul gems, etc). Later crafters benefit from more class options.

Crafting is in beta. Craft at your own risk.

New classes and races always change some aspect of the game.

Oh yeah... crafting is in beta. Craft at your own risk.

[Rodasch]

Conventionally, it's a singular term that refers to a group of people.

Whereas in DDO, it's commonly used to refer to a single enemy, and in the plural form "mobs" to a group of enemies.

Sort of like how, conventionally, "loot" refers specifically to plunder taken. Whereas in DDO, it's commonly used to refer to items in general.

As in, "I've got some pretty good loot on this character" would generally refer to all items, including crafted items, not just those taken from chests.

"Mob" is singular and is actually an abbreviation for "mobile object". It's a holdover term from MUDs and early MMORPG coding terms. It's a common misconception among newer players that the actual WORD "mob" is being used, but it's not the dictionary word.