Secrets of the Craftingbots

[KillEveryone]

You said that others didn't plan ahead, not that you planned ahead...

And you didn't plan ahead... It would have been a particularly stupid plan to have a gimp crafting character who could only craft items that were bound to character.

You got lucky... You started crafting AFTER the BtA changes were made. That doesn't mean you were smarter than everyone else and a better planner. That doesn't mean they were poor planners.

It means you got lucky... And now you're trying to pass it off like you were smarter than everyone else,

[/QUOTE]

I started crafting when it became available.

It was BTC.

It also wasn't going to stay BTC with the way it is set up. It would only appeal to the most hardcore gamer to level up all their characters in crafting using all those materials just to make a few weapons and have to do that for each and every character.

It wouldn't appeal to the casual gamer which is what was intended.

[Lord_Thanatos]

Crafting is an optional system you can use to improve your characters or game experience. No one has to craft. When adding a new Class to the game it will have a huge impact. Not just on the crafting system itself. Artificers are the "crafters" of the Eberron Campaign setting.
If someone really likes crafting and wants the best crafter they are not required to play an Artificer. You can cap crafting regardless. The new class is bought with TPs. So if you have no plans to play an Artificer and have capped your Crafting you save TPs.
The real issue comes down to people complaining they could have had it easier. They did all this "work" and now it will be easier for them with a new class. You have to separate the crafting system and the artificer. They are two different topics. Yes the Artificer gets a bonus to crafting. If someone wants to spend their TPs on a new class and make a crafting bot that is their choice. Sure it may be easier for them to level their crafting than it was for you. Maybe. But you didn't spend TP, you didn't waste a character slot on a bot. You did it on your main and helped make crafting better by testing it out.
At the time you choose which character to craft with Artificer wasn't an option. The system could change even more. Making it even easier to level up. Stop feeling slighted and angry because it may become easier for someone else to do something. Often the early adopter has it harder.

So, in other words, people shouldn't help Turbine test out anything because they don't give a **** about the testers and they can be ignored after they have their information even tho they made a 'Beta' system go 'Live' and even placed things in the Store to buy regarding this 'Beta' System.

[dkyle]

I'm quite frankly shocked at the sheer number of people who didn't see this coming and choose to believe Turbine. You know, believe the company that for years stated Druid was only a year away.

I trusted them because they surprised me in the first place by not giving Casters bonuses to crafting (or restricted it to them), which I figured was a forgone conclusion, given how crafting works in 3.5. That made me think they understood why separating crafting from character build is a good idea. I was, frankly, impressed by their wisdom.

But, my mistake, giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Personally, I saw this coming. I knew Artificer would probably stand a good chance of being involved in crafting. So I decided to play safe and wait it out. See what Turbine would do.

Sounds like the right choice.

Devs, again, if you ever want people to trust you, and help you test "beta" things on Live, using Live resources, please at least address this issue.

Fool me once, and all that.

[Bodic]

I am not reading this entire thread.

I will say its a dirty move.

I will say its BETA.

I recommend reading/movie watching:
Catch 22

I reserve that it is Live Beta thus can't/shouldn't be treated as a standard Beta. It has a severe impact on the live game. Turbine will do as they will do. We can give constructive or destructive inputs. I am guilty of both.

If said bonus crafting levels only applied to Artificier only constructions I would be happier so pots, wands, scrolls, clickies, puppy toys, and the like. Not to weapons, items, and armor.

It will be what it will be. We keep moving forward in DDO or to another game.

[Aelonwy]

Just out of curiousity, please tell me if i've got the wrong idea, but if the theory is that artificier craftbot with marks and class bonus adding +20 to crafting levels is so beneficial to reaching crafting cap ...wouldn't it be best to save those bonuses for the last or closest to last crafting levels?

That is, so long as you are not on the final life of your chosen crafter, wouldn't it be better to craft as you are, and wait to TR your character into an artificier until later? You wouldn't even have to remain an artificier because you would eventually cap your crafting xp just making things you wanted for your characters then you could TR again into a class you wanted to play with close to cap crafting levels... assuming you lost the bonus from your Artificer life. Of course, if they continued to raise crafting cap that might create a vicious cycle.

[Lord_Thanatos]

Devs, again, if you ever want people to trust you, and help you test "beta" things on Live, using Live resources, please at least address this issue.

Fool me once, and all that.

The fact that Turbine (and all of their defenders) are hiding behind the "Its a Beta" statement, like that excuses them of everything.

Proper Betas, don't go Live as a Beta, and also if this system REALLY was a 'Beta', they wouldn't have in good conscious then added things regarding crafting into the DDO Store...but they did.

[Thrudh]

Those new bonuses are not free. You have to devote a character (which costs a character slot, not trivial for non-VIP). And you have to level the character to 20 (also not trivial for many people).

Can you level an artificer from Crafter level 1 to 75 cheaper than leveling your current character from Crafter level 55-75? Maybe. There is a breakpoint where it's more effective to keep your existing character. Is it worth the additional cost of an extra character slot and the time to level a crafting bot to 20th to realize those savings? That's even less clear, and it's more likely that keeping your existing crafter is the best option.

These are good points... and you do have to gimp a character to take those otherwise worthless dragonmark feats... so there ARE costs to rolling an artificer just for crafting.

By the way everyone, the release notes also said that exp needed for crafting levels was coming down, so maybe it won't be so hard to keep crafting on your main character

[Thrudh]

Seriously, how is this any different than when they released Half-Orcs? Many people who had top-notch barbarians now felt like they had to TR into a half-orc. Should they not have played barbarians, because maybe something better will come along? Better things come along all the time. It's the nature of the game. You learn to adapt and move on.

That's also a good point...

[dkyle]

Seriously, how is this any different than when they released Half-Orcs? Many people who had top-notch barbarians now felt like they had to TR into a half-orc. Should they not have played barbarians, because maybe something better will come along? Better things come along all the time. It's the nature of the game. You learn to adapt and move on.

Did the devs specifically indicate that Half-orcs (or any other potentially desirable races) would not be released? We were told, many times, that crafting would not depend on the specific character's abilities/favor/etc., and a patch was even modified to ensure it remained that way.

Furthermore, the effort people put into their Barbarians is not wasted by introducing Half-orc. The only exceptions would be tomes lost in the TR (which is a problem for another thread), and race-restricted gear. But those are very much exceptions.

If I could go through a TR-like process to get the crafting XP off my Barbarian and onto a crafting bot, without wasting all the gear I've accrued on that Barbarian, I would. But I can't. Your analogy fails.

[Iwinbyrollup]

Personally, I saw this coming. I knew Artificer would probably stand a good chance of being involved in crafting. So I decided to play safe and wait it out. Looks like I made the right choice in the end.

And this is exactly the problem. Turbine can do whatever they want with a Beta system; heck, tomorrow they could decide to delete all crafted items, all crafting-related materials (including store bought items and items received by turning in tomes), reset all crafting levels, and not reimburse for time, plat, and TP spent at all. It's within their right, although we're all pretty much aware how remarkably stupid that would be (you'd have to be a really harsh Turbine critic to think this even remotely possible). The problem is that they WANT the system tested. So yes, it's in Beta, but if everyone had made the "right choice" as described above and simply waited it out, there would have been no one to test.

The effect that changes like this have is that people who get hit by it have learned a lesson: don't beta test for Turbine. From Turbine's perspective, this is about the last thing they want to happen (the actual last thing they'd want is people quitting over it, which seems unlikely from this change).

For future reference, ALL it would have taken on Turbine's part would have been a dev message saying, "We are considering giving crafting bonuses to certain build types, so plan accordingly". It seems very likely that they imagined the potential for crafting bonuses to artificers quite some time ago, and even a vague warning would have gone a very long way.

[Dandonk]

These are good points... and you do have to gimp a character to take those otherwise worthless dragonmark feats... so there ARE costs to rolling an artificer just for crafting.

Yes, but it's costs you can pay on a different character than the one you're getting the benefits on.

Now, if every character who wanted to use the items had to be a human artificer, that'd be a good point.

[dkyle]

That is, so long as you are not on the final life of your chosen crafter, wouldn't it be better to craft as you are, and wait to TR your character into an artificier until later?

Right, because turning a mult-TR into a crafting bot totally makes sense.

You wouldn't even have to remain an artificier because you would eventually cap your crafting xp just making things you wanted for your characters

False. XP from crafting shards degrades. You do not level at any appreciable rate at high CL just crafting useful items. You level by crafting useless shards over and over, moving on to different ones as the old ones degrade.

Upon reaching 130, and applying the +20 bonus, I doubt the crafter would gain even a single level without intentionally leveling.

Of course, if they continued to raise crafting cap that might create a vicious cycle.

Indeed. And isn't it preferable for games to avoid subjecting their players to vicious cycles?

[mournbladereigns]

I'm at CL55 on my crafter (who is a well-geared Barbarian). On my way to CL75-ish to make Holy Burst Greater Banes. The last truly useful things I've made I could make at CL35. Those last 20 levels were done entirely in the hopes of one day reaching CL75. Those 20 levels are actually more XP, and more essences spent, than those fist 35 were, and I expect to spend even more than I've spent so far getting to 75.

But obviously, if I can spend less than that, I'd be stupid not to.

That's where the new bonuses come in. I can either level my existing crafter to 75, or I can level a new crafting bot to 55, and use the bonuses. In terms of essences, I fully expect that leveling to 55 will cost less than leveling to 75. Therefore, my optimal choice is the crafting bot. But that means laying the progress I've already made to waste. And that's just 75. If I ever want to get to 100, or 150, or 200, the difference gets simply ridiculous.

This is how this change wastes my previous effort. I'm strictly better off, going forward, with starting over. My previous effort (past CL35) will have gotten me nothing of value, and I'd be better off, now, had I never spent those essences.

In short, their crafting toon, with this change, is no longer Optimal. that makes them a 'gimp'. A death sentence ( in 12 systems) (without doing the math, hard to say, I am sure there is a cutoff point where this is true.)

[OzmarDDO]

Crafting is on live. We're using live ressources to try it out, helping Turbine fix bugs and test balance.

For that effort, we're now getting shafted - minus 20 craft levels beyond people who start a new craft mule.

BETA? Right, but that counts for nothing when we're using live ressources.

And it's not a little better. It's massively, stupidly better - months less craft, millions of plat in ressources less.

Really... this is so bad it defies words.

Soooo... what you're saying is, its a good thing that I didn't do much crafting yet. And if I want to craft, I should make an artificer?

OK. Thanks for the info!

-Ozmar the Happy Artificer

[Lord_Thanatos]

Soooo... what you're saying is, its a good thing that I didn't do much crafting yet. And if I want to craft, I should make an artificer?

OK. Thanks for the info!

-Ozmar the Happy Artificer

More like, "You should never do any type of testing for Turbine, because they don't give a **** if they ram the entire system back up your rear end as a reward."

Also everyone that saying that the testers should have waited to see what Turbine was going to do... Well i'm sure that would be very productive if the testers did not test the system that needed to be tested because they are worried that Turbine might screw them over. (since its Live)

[Gkar]

So, looks like everyone who cares at all about crafting will be leveling a Human Dragonmarked Artificer crafting bot. +20CL is a massive bonus.

I, for one, look forward to abandoning my existing crafter, and capping a new character I'll never quest with ever again


Please, Devs, if you absolutely have to go back on your previous statements that build would be separate from crafting, at least let us transfer our existing crafting XP to our new crafting bots. Please don't punish your early adopters like this. Remember that when you first introduced crafting, you explicitly encouraged us to do it on our mains, since it was BtC.

I had randomly made my hagglebot/bard my crafter... I guess I'll just TR my Bard into an Artificer, she was a 1st lifer anyway and wasn't exactly uberequipped with bound equipment.

But yeah, in some cases it would really suck. I'm a big fan of crafting xp being account based.

[Gkar]

These are good points... and you do have to gimp a character to take those otherwise worthless dragonmark feats... so there ARE costs to rolling an artificer just for crafting.

By the way everyone, the release notes also said that exp needed for crafting levels was coming down, so maybe it won't be so hard to keep crafting on your main character

Hmm....I wonder if that means you will get free levels or if they will lower your existing xp to maintain your level

[Therigar]

The biggest problem with the thread is the assumption that players will make crafting bots. Artificer is going to be grossly over powered and will remain so for a long time. Players will want to buy -- yes, it appears that you have to purchase the class, even if VIP -- the artificer class. It is a greed driven equation for Turbine.

The more they tie into artificer the more revenue it will generate. And, by making a class that is over powered vis-a-vis the remainder of the game they drive the frenzy.

This is just another of the cumulative bits and pieces designed to funnel more cash into Turbine's pockets.

But, the crafting possibilities are just a fraction of the entire package. As it currently stands wizard/rogue is one of the most powerful builds available. Artificer will eliminate any need for this multiclass. Look for devices that enable evasion and there will be no reason to run anything except an artificer.

This is the death of rogues in the game for a long time. They are already seen as a weak class -- only partly reinvigorated by those who view their SA potential as DPS. Artificer eliminates any need for a rogue in any party. The spell pass already eliminated the need for any non-spell DPS.

The biggest monster in DDO is the greed monster. And it is alive, well and growing at Turbine.

[Khurse]

Hmm....I wonder if that means you will get free levels or if they will lower your existing xp to maintain your level

Levels are higher on Lammania.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=335757

[KillEveryone]

You are contradicting yourself. Those who made the "right choice" will benefit from it, and the rest will be hurt by it. This will impact everyone.

Wrong in so many ways.
1) You do not....DO NOT...have to have artificer to craft.
2) You can continue....CAN CONTINUE...to craft with your main.

Where is it hurting someone?

Come on now, see how may more straws you can grasp.


You will clearly benefit from it, so ofcourse you like it. It will give you an edge in crafting. Time to shine, finally!

And just who is going to be impressed?
Who am I going to have an edge against?

There is no competition in crafting so you have no argument.

Others have a higher crafting level than I am and I still have to run that crafter up to cap.

Grasp for more straws. Funny stuff.

Not in those word, but:

Meh. Still not my problem so I don't care. Deal with it.

Responded in Sky Blue.