Secrets of the Craftingbots

[Dandonk]

Maybe I just don't fully understand because I haven't done enough crafting.... the limit is still 150 right? that means whatever work has already been done isn't exactly lost, your character will still be able to hit the cap.

True, but hitting the cap will now be cheaper if you make a new toon, even if you're into the 60s or 70s already. So everything you've done so far is useless - if your goal is to get to high levels, of course.

[MrkGrismer]

I am hoping they have another double-bonus points day soon.

[dkyle]

I do understand that an artificer will be able to get their easier, but that doesn't invalidate what you have already done? Not trying to stir any pots here, just trying to understand why people seem so upset as opposed to partially perturbed.

Is your existing investment worthless? Most certainly not. You can still use it to craft all sorts of great stuff, and you can still improve on where you are at, all the way up to cap. The time you have invested is not lost.

I'm at CL55 on my crafter (who is a well-geared Barbarian). On my way to CL75-ish to make Holy Burst Greater Banes. The last truly useful things I've made I could make at CL35. Those last 20 levels were done entirely in the hopes of one day reaching CL75. Those 20 levels are actually more XP, and more essences spent, than those fist 35 were, and I expect to spend even more than I've spent so far getting to 75.

But obviously, if I can spend less than that, I'd be stupid not to.

That's where the new bonuses come in. I can either level my existing crafter to 75, or I can level a new crafting bot to 55, and use the bonuses. In terms of essences, I fully expect that leveling to 55 will cost less than leveling to 75. Therefore, my optimal choice is the crafting bot. But that means laying the progress I've already made to waste. And that's just 75. If I ever want to get to 100, or 150, or 200, the difference gets simply ridiculous.

This is how this change wastes my previous effort. I'm strictly better off, going forward, with starting over. My previous effort (past CL35) will have gotten me nothing of value, and I'd be better off, now, had I never spent those essences.

[Khurse]

True, but hitting the cap will now be cheaper if you make a new toon, even if you're into the 60s or 70s already. So everything you've done so far is useless - if your goal is to get to high levels, of course.

???

No, My crafting skill of 90 was 60 away from "cap" before. It is 60 away from the "cap" now.
I still need as much XP and materials used to get to the cap as I did before.

So everything I've done so far on my crafter is NOT useless, he's still the same level and distance form cap as before.

It means my crafter will have to use more XP and ingredients to get to the cap than someone who is an artificer and/or has the dragonmarks, but in no way,shape,or form does it make my current crafter "useless".

[Aaxeyu]

Do I think that none should ever try to help Turbine again with testing since it all just gets thrown out the window? Try it out at your own risk. If it changes and something is listed as beta then don't bet it will stay the same.

Providing criticism about a change is not the same thing as "asking crafting to stay the same".
Lot of people (me included) obviously don't like this change. Telling us to "live with it" is completely useless. Just because it's a change doesn't mean it's a good change or that it has to stay this way forever.

[Khurse]

This... You're being a real jerk here KillEveryone. Try to put yourself in someone else's shoes for a second. It was very reasonable for people to make their main characters their crafting characters.

And it still is.

The artificer and/or DM bonus is big, but it hardly invalidates current crafters, or even future crafters like the OP and supporters claim.

[Khurse]

Providing criticism about a change is not the same thing as "asking crafting to stay the same".
Lot of people (me included) obviously don't like this change. Telling us to "live with it" is completely useless. Just because it's a change doesn't mean it's a good change or that it has to stay this way forever.

And that's fine.

Saying "I don't like this because it means someone else might have to do less work to reach the same crafting level/ or cap crafting as my current crafter" is fine.

Saying the change "renders current crafters useless and players will have to restart" is false.

[KillEveryone]

Providing criticism about a change is not the same thing as "asking crafting to stay the same".
Lot of people (me included) obviously don't like this change. Telling us to "live with it" is completely useless. Just because it's a change doesn't mean it's a good change or that it has to stay this way forever.

You are not loosing anything.

You either keep leveling with the current crafter. You were planning on doing it that way anyway so go ahead. No one is stopping you.

You can level a artificer and LR taking those dragonmark feats and have a crafter then. No no one is stopping you.

It isn't going to effect you. No one says you HAVE to have the artificer class to level in crafting.

Since you don't, there really isn't any argument.

[Schmoe]

I'm at CL55 on my crafter (who is a well-geared Barbarian). On my way to CL75-ish to make Holy Burst Greater Banes. The last truly useful things I've made I could make at CL35. Those last 20 levels were done entirely in the hopes of one day reaching CL75. Those 20 levels are actually more XP, and more essences spent, than those fist 35 were, and I expect to spend even more than I've spent so far getting to 75.

But obviously, if I can spend less than that, I'd be stupid not to.

That's where the new bonuses come in. I can either level my existing crafter to 75, or I can level a new crafting bot to 55, and use the bonuses.

Those new bonuses are not free. You have to devote a character (which costs a character slot, not trivial for non-VIP). And you have to level the character to 20 (also not trivial for many people).

Can you level an artificer from Crafter level 1 to 75 cheaper than leveling your current character from Crafter level 55-75? Maybe. There is a breakpoint where it's more effective to keep your existing character. Is it worth the additional cost of an extra character slot and the time to level a crafting bot to 20th to realize those savings? That's even less clear, and it's more likely that keeping your existing crafter is the best option.

In terms of essences, I fully expect that leveling to 55 will cost less than leveling to 75. Therefore, my optimal choice is the crafting bot. But that means laying the progress I've already made to waste. And that's just 75. If I ever want to get to 100, or 150, or 200, the difference gets simply ridiculous.

I would be interested in seeing some numbers. Is there a place where I can find the Crafting XP/Cost per level?

My previous effort (past CL35) will have gotten me nothing of value

I think what people are trying to say is, that should have been your expectation all along. That is the price of testing a Beta system.

[Dandonk]

Saying the change "renders current crafters useless and players will have to restart" is false.

But if we are aiming to reach higher levels, it will be cheaper to restart. So it's not really false.

[flaggson]

I'm at CL55 on my crafter (who is a well-geared Barbarian). On my way to CL75-ish to make Holy Burst Greater Banes. The last truly useful things I've made I could make at CL35. Those last 20 levels were done entirely in the hopes of one day reaching CL75. Those 20 levels are actually more XP, and more essences spent, than those fist 35 were, and I expect to spend even more than I've spent so far getting to 75.

But obviously, if I can spend less than that, I'd be stupid not to.

That's where the new bonuses come in. I can either level my existing crafter to 75, or I can level a new crafting bot to 55, and use the bonuses. In terms of essences, I fully expect that leveling to 55 will cost less than leveling to 75. Therefore, my optimal choice is the crafting bot. But that means laying the progress I've already made to waste. And that's just 75. If I ever want to get to 100, or 150, or 200, the difference gets simply ridiculous.

This is how this change wastes my previous effort. I'm strictly better off, going forward, with starting over. My previous effort (past CL35) will have gotten me nothing of value, and I'd be better off, now, had I never spent those essences.

Ok... I can see where your coming from here....while I can't say thematically I don't understand why arty got the bonus.... I now understand "logistically" why it is such an annoyance.

[dkyle]

No, My crafting skill of 90 was 60 away from "cap" before. It is 60 away from the "cap" now.
I still need as much XP and materials used to get to the cap as I did before.

Set 90 aside for a moment; let's look at 75.

If you are at 75, you will be 84000 from cap, if you continue to level your existing crafter.

However, if you start over you with a DMarked Artificer, you only need 81988 to cap.

Given the choice between need more XP to cap, and less, the choice should be obvious.

Now, that's for 75. For 90, it is indeed less XP to cap than starting over. But XP comes from essences, and as we level, XP per essence goes down. This means that higher levels are worth more in terms of essneces, relative to lower levels, than just XP alone would indicate. This is very difficult to calculate, but I have no doubt 90 is at least borderline here; that continuing on would be, at best, equal to starting over, but I think likely worse.

But for me, at my lowly 55 CL, it's obvious that I should start over.

[Schmoe]

But if we are aiming to reach higher levels, it will be cheaper to restart.

Situationally true, situationally false. It depends on where you are at right now, and on where you want to get.

[KillEveryone]

Exactly.
Or if in U12 they announce that they've increased the crafting level to 170, but only Human Artificers can craft anything above 150 I will completely agree with (and support) players getting ****ed.

This is where I agree that a argument would be had in regards to all the other crafters.

If in a future update, this happens, I will back everyone else that is upset by that change even though my crafter is a human and will be artificer when I'm allowed to LR into that class.

This kind of change is for the worse because it then invalidates everyone else's work.

[Ryiah]

Please, Devs, if you absolutely have to go back on your previous statements that build would be separate from crafting, at least let us transfer our existing crafting XP to our new crafting bots. Please don't punish your early adopters like this. Remember that when you first introduced crafting, you explicitly encouraged us to do it on our mains, since it was BtC.

I'm quite frankly shocked at the sheer number of people who didn't see this coming and choose to believe Turbine. You know, believe the company that for years stated Druid was only a year away.

Personally, I saw this coming. I knew Artificer would probably stand a good chance of being involved in crafting. So I decided to play safe and wait it out. Looks like I made the right choice in the end.

[XianaAylomien]

Crafting is an optional system you can use to improve your characters or game experience. No one has to craft. When adding a new Class to the game it will have a huge impact. Not just on the crafting system itself. Artificers are the "crafters" of the Eberron Campaign setting.
If someone really likes crafting and wants the best crafter they are not required to play an Artificer. You can cap crafting regardless. The new class is bought with TPs. So if you have no plans to play an Artificer and have capped your Crafting you save TPs.
The real issue comes down to people complaining they could have had it easier. They did all this "work" and now it will be easier for them with a new class. You have to separate the crafting system and the artificer. They are two different topics. Yes the Artificer gets a bonus to crafting. If someone wants to spend their TPs on a new class and make a crafting bot that is their choice. Sure it may be easier for them to level their crafting than it was for you. Maybe. But you didn't spend TP, you didn't waste a character slot on a bot. You did it on your main and helped make crafting better by testing it out.
At the time you choose which character to craft with Artificer wasn't an option. The system could change even more. Making it even easier to level up. Stop feeling slighted and angry because it may become easier for someone else to do something. Often the early adopter has it harder.

[KillEveryone]

You didn't plan ahead since that was not possible without a functional crystal ball. In reality you guessed. It just so happens that you guessed right, but that was by no means a guarantee. I wonder if your responses would continue to be so smug if it had turned out that you'd guessed wrong?

I still wouldn't care.

And I did actually plan ahead.

I have a haggle bot just for buying and selling.

I have a crafter bot just for crafting.

I like my backpack spaces empty to moving stuff around and looking at my crafting materials.

If another skill or something like crafting comes out, I'll have a separate character for that one also.

[Dandonk]

At the time you choose which character to craft with Artificer wasn't an option. The system could change even more. Making it even easier to level up. Stop feeling slighted and angry because it may become easier for someone else to do something. Often the early adopter has it harder.

I'm saying it's silly that it'll be easier for me to start over - and throwing away all I've done so far.

That the thanks we get for helping with testing is for many of us to be better off throwing away a long grind we've already done.

[Xyfiel]

And it still is.

The artificer and/or DM bonus is big, but it hardly invalidates current crafters, or even future crafters like the OP and supporters claim.

I agree with you Khurse.

The fact is, the game changes, constantly. How many people grind out an item just to have a new item releases that takes it place? The people who must have those items, will grind out the new item as well. That is how they enjoy the game, they are called achievers.

Even though we all know the game changes and we voice our displeasures with them(glancing hits, speed nerf, DA), everyone knew crafting was in beta. The only reason Turbine put it on live was to get people(the achievers who just had to make those hb of glob for the extra x dps) into spending Turbine points. Everyone should have expected things to change, and they did change crafting details many times already. I don't like it, but they are a business. The plan worked like a charm. Now they are upset that they wasted a lot of time compared to someone new making a Arty with Dragonmark. Well, they waste a lot of time grinding epic/raid items also. I don't agree with them. They knew the situation, and now want to have both the benefit of having the stuff "now", and getting compensation for their time.

They did help beta test crafting, but since it is still in beta, it could all get wiped at any time or removed from the game. Heck, even if it wasn't in beta they could do that. What exactly can Turbine do? They can move peoples crafting levels to their char of choice or remove the crafting bonuses. I doubt they will do either one.

Fyi, I did spend time and money on crafting. I will make a craftbot at some point. I didn't feel like I needed max crafting level to help with the beta test. I choose not to risk a major change and waste my time knowing it was in a constant state of flux. I had patience, even if it ends up costing me more time and money in the end. Greed got the best of you.

[Schmoe]

Seriously, how is this any different than when they released Half-Orcs? Many people who had top-notch barbarians now felt like they had to TR into a half-orc. Should they not have played barbarians, because maybe something better will come along? Better things come along all the time. It's the nature of the game. You learn to adapt and move on.