Secrets of the Craftingbots

[kernal42]

Seems like you are wrong again:

I'm not sure why you think dkyle's quotation, describing a likely exploit by which a BTC shard can be used to make BTA loot, is in any way evidence that the first shards weren't BTC.

-Kernal

[Jahmin]

Huh, I didn't realize you could get an artificer to level 20 and take feats without gaining exp via crafting.

I think it's because you can't.

I have no idea what you are referencing and I wonder if you do either.

In any event, of course you can level an artificer to 20 without gaining XP via crafting – probably because leveling has nothing to do with crafting.

[Jahmin]

I'm not sure why you think dkyle's quotation, describing a likely exploit by which a BTC shard can be used to make BTA loot, is in any way evidence that the first shards weren't BTC.

Because my original statement was that the game’s second favorite Barbarian showed you could bound to account craft.

[kernal42]

I have no idea what you are referencing and I wonder if you do either.

In any event, of course you can level an artificer to 20 without gaining XP via crafting – probably because leveling has nothing to do with crafting.

Indeed, a fine catch; my mind was elsewhere.

I meant that you cannot gather exp without questing. Not only is that is that a correct statement*, but it is also relevant to the conversation. A great improvement over what I actually wrote.

-Kernal

*For the sake of completeness, let's just consider whatever happens in wilderness areas to be questing, also.

[kernal42]

Because my original statement was that the game’s second favorite Barbarian showed you could bound to account craft.

Your original statement is largely irrelevant when you tell me that my statement (which was correct, due to the specification of "BTC shards") was wrong. The point remains that my statement was correct regarding the fact that, originally, shards were BTC.

-Kernal

[Jahmin]

Do you think that Eladrin is lying or that Eladrin stayed up all night finishing epic Tor and just doesn't remember it because it was all an Ambien fueled, amnesia filled night of coding?

Ignoring that Eladrin has lied to us before, the fact that we played it Lamania and then even played it on live pretty much indicates that it is done. Was it perfect? No – but then it certainly was less buggy than some of the recent updates as well. We even just had a live event with an Epic Stormreaver

I understand that Turbine essentially lied to us and did an about face on Epics – but I am a big boy and I do not let it get to me despite it being the easy solution to the buff the reaver raid problem.

Edit: I should also point out that there's a good change that you're just misreading Shade when you think that he said Crafting started with BtA shards.

If you actually remember that (and that workaround still works to create BtA crafted items, by the way), it was using BtA items to make BtA crafted blanks onto which you would apply the BtC shards (because all shards were BtC in the beginning), resulting in a BtA item.

The Shards were BtC. Putting those BtC shards onto a BtA blank that you made from a BtA item resulted in an upgraded BtA crafted item - just like how Binding and Attuning a BtA item in the Stone of Change results in a Bound and Attuned BtA item. I'll point to my Bound and Attuned BtA Carnifex as an example of this.

But in spite of the fact that you could create *some* BtA items with the BtC shards, that doesn't change the fact that the shards themselves were all BtC in the beginning.

Exactly – just another reason why I have avoided crafting, but the fact remains you could account craft at launch.

[Lord_Thanatos]

Ignoring that Eladrin has lied to us before, the fact that we played it Lamania and then even played it on live pretty much indicates that it is done. Was it perfect? No – but then it certainly was less buggy than some of the recent updates as well. We even just had a live event with an Epic Stormreaver

I understand that Turbine essentially lied to us and did an about face on Epics – but I am a big boy and I do not let it get to me despite it being the easy solution to the buff the reaver raid problem.





Exactly – just another reason why I have avoided crafting, but the fact remains you could account craft at launch.

So abusing bugs and exploits (which not everyone could or did do) is all that you can say to 'prove' that it was BoA at launch? So if there was a bug that allowed someone to easily solo every raid in the game, could I say that the devs designed the raiding system to be soloable?

The system was designed at launch to be BtC, especially considering the devs encouraged us to craft on our mains because they designed the system at the start to be BtC.

[kernal42]

So abusing bugs and exploits (which not everyone could or did do) is all that you can say to 'prove' that it was BoA at launch? So if there was a bug that allowed someone to easily solo every raid in the game, could I say that the devs designed the raiding system to be soloable?

The system was designed at launch to be BtC, especially considering the devs encouraged us to craft on our mains because they designed the system at the start to be BtC.

The two of you are basically agreeing angrily.

Crafting was originally designed and intended to be BTC.
At the time of the release of crafting, it was possible to craft BTA items.

These statements are both true, and not contradictory.

-Kernal

[Jahmin]

Indeed, a fine catch; my mind was elsewhere.

I meant that you cannot gather exp without questing. Not only is that is that a correct statement*, but it is also relevant to the conversation. A great improvement over what I actually wrote.

-Kernal

*For the sake of completeness, let's just consider whatever happens in wilderness areas to be questing, also.

No prob – I know it can get confusing: BtA craft vs BtC shard

Essentially you are arguing that you do not want craftbots, yet ‘Mud’s’ reply to you could just as easily indicate that the Devs feel that having a craftbot is acceptable rather than your interpretation that he was agreeing that class should be separate from crafting. We just do not know – which is one of the reasons I do not craft.

Indeed, his reply to you seems to support the former interpretation and he specifically addresses the crafter not having to quest in the second reply, but even if we ignore that and grant you that they agree that crafting should be separate from class at no point have they ever made the same claim for race.

In any event, while it may not be optimal according to this thread, the fact remains a craftbot does not have to quest.

[Jahmin]

So abusing bugs and exploits (which not everyone could or did do) is all that you can say to 'prove' that it was BoA at launch? So if there was a bug that allowed someone to easily solo every raid in the game, could I say that the devs designed the raiding system to be soloable?

The system was designed at launch to be BtC, especially considering the devs encouraged us to craft on our mains because they designed the system at the start to be BtC.

Everyone COULD do it.

Not WAI does not automatically mean exploit.

Just because something is BtC does not also mean that they were encouraging to craft on your main. But hey, maybe I missed that in the Dev tracker where they said to craft on your main? If anything they did say that it might reset on TRing, which to me would be a major red flag, but in this thread alone we see numerous examples of people claiming to be TRing their crafters

As pointed out, you are infact agreeing with me

[kernal42]

No prob – I know it can get confusing: BtA craft vs BtC shard

Essentially you are arguing that you do not want craftbots, yet ‘Mud’s’ reply to you could just as easily indicate that the Devs feel that having a craftbot is acceptable rather than your interpretation that he was agreeing that class should be separate from crafting. We just do not know – which is one of the reasons I do not craft.

Indeed, his reply to you seems to support the former interpretation and he specifically addresses the crafter not having to quest in the second reply, but even if we ignore that and grant you that they agree that crafting should be separate from class at no point have they ever made the same claim for race.

In any event, while it may not be optimal according to this thread, the fact remains a craftbot does not have to quest.

Sort of.

In my opinion (whatever that's worth), it's fine to have a craftbot; it's not fine to encourage players to have a craftbot, which is what this system is doing.

Regarding what MadFloyd said:
It's certainly true that I'm stretching his words to apply here, but I don't think my interpretation is unreasonable. A craftbot that does not quest is a level 1 craftbot, which is a pretty useless craftbot (can't take dragonmark feats, gets no artificer bonus).

This change demands that every crafter be a capped (more or less) human artificer with 3 dragonmarks; this requires that the craftbot quest to get the exp needed to levelup, which goes against the (somewhat stretched) interpretation of MadFloyd's statement.

I do think it's the better of the two interpretations that you provided, soley because I doubt MadFloyd would be advocating the use of craftbots (another reason he should understand that the current change is a bad one).

Cheers,
Kernal

[dkyle]

Just because something is BtC does not also mean that they were encouraging to craft on your main.

Yeah, and the existence of levels in no way "encourages" us to get XP

The game mechanics rewarded crafting on a main. Greatly so, even if you were willing to exploit to make BtA items. That is encouragement. You're denial of that reality is simply bizarre.

If anything they did say that it might reset on TRing, which to me would be a major red flag, but in this thread alone we see numerous examples of people claiming to be TRing their crafters

First, it was said that it "might" go away on TR. It was undecided.

Then it was, without equivocation, said that it won't go away: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...82#post3770582

Clearly, they've made some kind of decision here. There's no reason, anymore, to consider lose of crafting levels on TR as any more likely than any other change the Devs could always make.

[Jahmin]

Yeah, and the existence of levels in no way "encourages" us to get XP

The game mechanics rewarded crafting on a main. Greatly so, even if you were willing to exploit to make BtA items. That is encouragement. You're denial of that reality is simply bizarre.

You do not have to get XP, or even level if you do not want – are you agreeing with me?

No, there was no reward mechanic and you cannot simply invent one after the fact. Even ignoring that you could account craft, crafting was beneficial to whatever character you choose – there was nothing that indicated that main crafting was any better than other options. Indeed, depending upon one’s main vs alts it could even be more beneficial to craft on another character.

First, it was said that it "might" go away on TR. It was undecided.
Then it was, without equivocation, said that it won't go away: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...82#post3770582

Clearly, they've made some kind of decision here. There's no reason, anymore, to consider lose of crafting levels on TR as any more likely than any other change the Devs could always make.

First, I did not take his statement nearly as unequivocally as you do – and not just because of the other falsehoods we have been told in the past – rather, I felt it was a confirmation of how that was working AT THE MOMENT. But I agree it could go either way.

In any event, this was said after it had gone live so people had already selected TRing chars DESPITE the initial warning.

[Schmoe]

Sort of.

In my opinion (whatever that's worth), it's fine to have a craftbot; it's not fine to encourage players to have a craftbot, which is what this system is doing.

Regarding what MadFloyd said:
It's certainly true that I'm stretching his words to apply here, but I don't think my interpretation is unreasonable. A craftbot that does not quest is a level 1 craftbot, which is a pretty useless craftbot (can't take dragonmark feats, gets no artificer bonus).

This change demands that every crafter be a capped (more or less) human artificer with 3 dragonmarks; this requires that the craftbot quest to get the exp needed to levelup, which goes against the (somewhat stretched) interpretation of MadFloyd's statement.

I do think it's the better of the two interpretations that you provided, soley because I doubt MadFloyd would be advocating the use of craftbots (another reason he should understand that the current change is a bad one).

Cheers,
Kernal

I think you are stretching the definition of require.

[gloopygloop]

Everyone COULD do it.

Not WAI does not automatically mean exploit.

Just because something is BtC does not also mean that they were encouraging to craft on your main. But hey, maybe I missed that in the Dev tracker where they said to craft on your main? If anything they did say that it might reset on TRing, which to me would be a major red flag, but in this thread alone we see numerous examples of people claiming to be TRing their crafters

As pointed out, you are infact agreeing with me

They didn't encourage us to craft on our main as far as I'm concerned. They encouraged us to craft on our primary melee.

Because our casters, hjealers, etc. could do just fine with BtA weapons and items, but if you want metal type weapons (i.e. Silver and Cold Iron), you're pretty much stuck with unbound weapons. I have 5 capped characters, two of which are capped TR's. I also have alt-itis, so I run a lot of quest chains on characters that I later deleted. I also engage in the unusual practice of running entire chains repeatedly instead of just farming the "good" quests in a chain. That means I get a whole lot of chain end rewards. I have gotten a fair number of BtA Mithral and Adamantine Full Plates, but I have only ever seen one BtA Silver weapon in my entire time playing DDO and that was a Silver Light Hammer.

I'd be willing to bet any amount of plat you name that there are more eSoS's on each server than BtA Silver Khopeshes.

That's a pretty strong encouragement to make your main Melee character your primary crafter when shards are BtC.

[dTarkanan]

Seems to me it was pretty obvious when BTC was live that crafting on your main melee toon was greatly preferrable to any other option; crafting for casters offered somewhat limited rewards (+2 DC bonuses which are available elsewhere?) whereas Holy Silver GLOB would be some of the best fiendbeaters in the game- and getting a BTA Silver weapon of your choice type was very, very unlikely. Me and many others diligently crafted on our melee mains towards such a goal. When the system changed to BTA, there was no reason to craft or deconstruct on a different toon- why throw all that work out the window?

And now this. Where people who have spent millions of plat in essence purchases and lost millions of plat deconstructs, have to choose either to be economically hamstrung at crafting from the getgo and spend millions of plat more and level far slower, TR their main melee into a premium casting/ranged class with 3 feats taken up with dragonmarks, or abandon all their current work.

Edit: Ninja'd, but left for emphasis.

[dkyle]

You do not have to get XP, or even level if you do not want – are you agreeing with me?

Just because some theoretical, bizarre player that I doubt has ever existed might not choose to pursue XP and levels does not mean there is no reward or encouragement to do so.

You're simply denying anything resembling a remotely realistic view of the game at this point.

No, there was no reward mechanic and you cannot simply invent one after the fact.

It is obvious that the original mechanic rewarded crafting on an important questing character that will use the gear, not a crafting bot or other ancillary character that doesn't need the gear. I don't know how this is remotely up for debate.

Even ignoring that you could account craft, crafting was beneficial to whatever character you choose – there was nothing that indicated that main crafting was any better than other options.

A "main", is well, main, and therefore more likely to actually use the items produced by the BtC crafting. Again, how is this not blatantly obvious?

And again, BtA item crafting wasn't just exploitative, it was (and is) much more difficult than making BtC items, especially boss beaters. That, in and of itself, is incentive to craft on the character that will use the items.

First, I did not take his statement nearly as unequivocally as you do – and not just because of the other falsehoods we have been told in the past – rather, I felt it was a confirmation of how that was working AT THE MOMENT.

If a flat out "yes" from a Dev isn't enough for you, I have to question how you justify doing anything in the game. After all, to my knowledge, no Dev has ever said that they won't just delete all your characters. And even if they did, they could be lying!

[SisAmethyst]

I have a little bit of mixed feelings about this.

While it sound interesting to be able to bump crafting skills somehow I indeed dislike the fact that I burned a bunch of resources on a character that not yet has the same advantage as an Artificer. If this particular Character is Gimp or not isn't the real question for me. Some players may level an Artificer to level 20 in a matter of weeks and afterwards it is only a question of a LR or feed respec, heck even some players haggle bards aren't far away from Gimp neither. It is only a matter of slots and resources.

So the real problem is more the huge advantage as 20 crafting levels is a lot, especially the higher your current level is.

On the other side I noticed that after the copy of my character to Lama land my current crafting levels got a bump. So the question is if all existing crafting levels will get bumped on live the same way with U11 to throw a bone to those that already have a crafter...

[MeliCat]

So abusing bugs and exploits (which not everyone could or did do) is all that you can say to 'prove' that it was BoA at launch? So if there was a bug that allowed someone to easily solo every raid in the game, could I say that the devs designed the raiding system to be soloable?

The system was designed at launch to be BtC, especially considering the devs encouraged us to craft on our mains because they designed the system at the start to be BtC.

But BtC got very quickly yelled down.

So it was not too late to change your main crafter at that point.

It takes so much inv space to comfortably craft that putting it on your main is an interesting choice. Putting it on an alt (which could then (eventually) be TRed into a human arti later) would be a reasonable choice). People make dedicated hagglebots so why not?

[dTarkanan]

But BtC got very quickly yelled down.

So it was not too late to change your main crafter at that point.

It takes so much inv space to comfortably craft that putting it on your main is an interesting choice. Putting it on an alt (which could then (eventually) be TRed into a human arti later) would be a reasonable choice). People make dedicated hagglebots so why not?

Maybe because people had already invested time and resources into levelling up their main? BtC was live for enough time for people to grind their mains to high levels.