Artificer Align Weapons

[Diyon]

A cheap level 5 spell that totally invalidates a class capstone enhancement and an expensive epic bonus is far too powerful, IMO.
5 damage a swing is nice, but against bosses with 15-35 DR the choice is obvious for which is better for infusion.

Something to keep in mind there, the alignment infusion is appealing over the damage infusion when the non DR-breaking weapon does no less than the DR value minus the damage infusion amount, than the alternative DR-breaking weapon.

Example:

DR breaker does 60 damage a swing to boss.
Non DR breaker does 50.
Boss DR is 20.
Infusion adds 5 damage per hit.

DR breaker will do 65 optimally, but the non DR breaker will now do 70.

But if the difference between the two is greater, or the DR smaller, it can change. If we change that 60 to higher than 70 then Align Weapon is not the good choice.

[DragonTroy]

hmmm, i wonder how much damage my rogue would do with an epic chaosblade that could break DR?

man that sounds nice

[Xenostrata]

Something to keep in mind there, the alignment infusion is appealing over the damage infusion when the non DR-breaking weapon does no less than the DR value minus the damage infusion amount, than the alternative DR-breaking weapon.

Example:

DR breaker does 60 damage a swing to boss.
Non DR breaker does 50.
Boss DR is 20.
Infusion adds 5 damage per hit.

DR breaker will do 65 optimally, but the non DR breaker will now do 70.

But if the difference between the two is greater, or the DR smaller, it can change. If we change that 60 to higher than 70 then Align Weapon is not the good choice.

This is true in some cases, but rarely in the case of epic weapons.

Take the case of the eSoS (sorry for using the same example, but it is the best option). This non-DR breaker usually does more damage against DR targets than standard DR breakers do, so people will be using this one against high DR targets regardless of whether or not they can make it a DR breaker. Against elite Horoth, they can choose to keep it the same, which is more than the DR breaker, give it +5 damage, or give it +35 damage.

In this case, the choice IS obvious.

Edit: +1 for the good point, though. For toons that aren't completely geared, the other choice might be better. Probably not a good idea to tank elite Horoth with that toon though.

[sweez]

Eh? So getting 11 people in the group and then waiting 20 minutes for an artificer so you can get your esos infused is somehow game-breaking, but unbound DR breaking crystals which can be traded for aren't?

[Xenostrata]

Eh? So getting 11 people in the group and then waiting 20 minutes for an artificer so you can get your esos infused is somehow game-breaking, but unbound DR breaking crystals which can be traded for aren't?

Those crystals are both a very rare drop in a reasonably difficult quest that is timered, and they aren't permanent. Hence, they should not be figured into what a character will be able to do.

Also, I think you strongly underestimate the number of artificers people are going to roll once u11 goes live. With abilities like the ones they have, I see a lot of them running around, and I think more of a problem is always declining the second+ ones because they don't have abilities that improve beyond the first.

[Indoran]

A better question is why are we still waiting on Bless Weapon?

this!!! it would help pallies to get a bit more dps

[dingal]

I believe the answer you are looking for is the 10 or so extra d6 and +4 ab and dmg per blow vs evil outsiders that comprise the vast majority of current endgame content. I might be off on the exact # of total d6 but iitc its:

+3d6 capstone vs evil outsiders
+4d6 kotc III
+3d6 tod ring set

Something like that, anyway, I'm sure if I'm off soemeone will negrep and correct me :P

I said capstone and if I didn't that's what I meant. There's no way I'd sacrifice 2 fighter or monk feats for JUST 3d6 vs outsiders. It's weapons of good that truly sets the capstoned paladin apart from any other paladin build.

[Jahmin]

this!!! it would help pallies to get a bit more dps

Indeed. Of course, all Divines are also supposed to have access to Align Weapon as well

[Xenostrata]

Indeed. Of course, all Divines are also supposed to have access to Align Weapon as well

A compromise for giving the spell to artificers could be to buff up the paladin capstone. Without the DR/Good breaking being useful, all it is is 3d6 damage - making it a percentage bonus instead of a straight number (you know, like the other melees' capstone) would be a significant improvement. Hell, I would be happy with something that reduces the smite regen to a reasonable duration instead of a minute and a half.

[MRH]

Is there confirmation that these infusions will be able to be applied to named, crafted & GS weapons ?

[Xenostrata]

Is there confirmation that these infusions will be able to be applied to named, crafted & GS weapons ?

...If it doesn't apply to named items, I'm going to feel really stupid for starting this thread.
Guess we'll find out tomorrow.

(TBH, I do think that it will apply to named items as well. Otherwise, artificers would lose a lot of power if their infusions only applied to random lootgen items.)

[Jaid314]

You are only looking at one ability, and in a very narrow manner.
Paladins, a class that was barely above par DPS wise against one target, just lost a 35 point per swing bonus they had against an equally geared non-paladin melee against elite raid bosses.

Too the people who say why we shouls care in a PvE game about other classes getting a buff:
1. Because we are all measured against each other, and playing the lowest point on the DPS curve is not fun or socially rewarding
2. Turbine builds content around what people can do, and having all the raids boosted on the assumption that all the melee are being boosted too sucks for all the melees who aren't.

again, not really.

a sufficiently devoted player would have had the DR breaking ability anyways. and will still need to have it anyways, because they're going to need to be able to break DR whether or not the artificer is there.

the ability to break DR with an epic sword of shadows is not a new ability for barbarians when artificers around, and it's not an ability they can count on. they will still need to keep their epic sword of shadows supplied with devil's ruin augments unless they plan to ragequit every raid that doesn't have an artificer, while the paladin will still be able to use a regular silver augmented eSoS for all those devil raid bosses. in raids where both the paladin and the barbarian are present, it is most likely that *both* of them will request a different buff from the artificer, because both will need to be able to break DR on their own, without any help.

aligned weapon is largely something i expect to see artificers use on themselves, and not likely anyone else, because if your build is dependent on the presence of an artificer to function, then you're screwed whenever there isn't an artificer. it's like an "AC build" that depends on a maxed out paladin aura to function; sure, it's a possibility, but are you really going to claim that you're an AC build when the only way you get useful AC is if someone else in the party is able to supply it?

[Jay203]

Does anyone else think this spell is going too far?

no where near too far
greensteel on the other hand.... =_=;;;

[redspecter23]

The infusion is only extremely powerful because of the state of the current endgame, where multiple bosses require double DR breaking ability. Perhaps a year from now that might be completely different. Today's overpowered is tomorrow's junk ability. Only Turbine knows what they have planned in the future, but I'm fairly certain we'll be seeing a lot less devils and probably a lot fewer demons in the coming high level packs.

[Aashrym]

The infusion is only extremely powerful because of the state of the current endgame, where multiple bosses require double DR breaking ability. Perhaps a year from now that might be completely different. Today's overpowered is tomorrow's junk ability. Only Turbine knows what they have planned in the future, but I'm fairly certain we'll be seeing a lot less devils and probably a lot fewer demons in the coming high level packs.

The only thing really good about the paladin capstone is what we see in our quests on a 20th level pally. If we do not need the damage breaker and we end up with a lot of high level constructs, for instance, the pally capstone loses more without the need for the alignment breaker and without damage on opponents who may be neutral while neither undead nor outsiders.

That would be carptacular. I do think the capstone has room for improvement or an alternate capstone could be developed.

[HarveyMilk]

Great point Aashrym, as usual. An alternate/improved capstone would be huge. I'd love to see one that enhances the pally defensive capabilities.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

I'm not normally one to cry NERF!!!1!, but when reading through the new artificer spell list, I saw something startling: Artificers can now grant themselves or an ally alignment based damage reduction.

This spell turns any epic weapon with a red slot into a DR breaker, renders the alignment based augment crystals totally pointless, and throws the Paladin even further behind in the DPS arms race as their once exclusive ability to break devil DR with weapons like the eSoS is spread to the other melee classes.

DR breaking should not come in a bottle, to be dispensed to anyone who happens to get an artificer in the group. There is a reason that the epic version requires 30 epic tokens and an item that took weeks or months to create.

Does anyone else think this spell is going too far?

Yes, but it also increased our childlike dependence on the artificer. "This is your weapon, this is your weapon on [infusions]." You need some carrot if you want people to spend time leveling these guys, other than (really really fun looking) flavor. Since while i lurrrrve me some flavor, I've been bitten once mid range stuff drops on me, and I start piking. I really really hate feeling like i'm taking up space with my forum-special designer flavor build that a relative noob could fill with a moderately geared barb and kick more arse with.

There are other ways to break DR, and since while Arties can buff, they are taking up a slot, and you have to weigh whether it's not just better to get another guy who can hit or nuke, and take your chances with silver of righteousness/holy silver etc. It'll be quest dependent, and YMMV

[HarveyMilk]

There are other ways to break DR, and since while Arties can buff, they are taking up a slot, and you have to weigh whether it's not just better to get another guy who can hit or nuke, and take your chances with silver of righteousness/holy silver etc. It'll be quest dependent, and YMMV

The point is if you don't need the alignment buff (which in some cases is a HUGE bonus) then you get the deadly weapons +5 dmg per hit buff. That's comparable to bard buffs and it is huge. Plus they'll be doing dps (how much dps we haven't seen yet) and they'll be doing buffs. They'll always be welcome I think.

[weewoo0]

well. lets see. if artificers take away half the capstone (and it IS half the capstone. breaking 35 dr w/ epic chaosblades outweighs the 10.5 dmg from the 3d6 by quite a bit <24.5 points. people do multiple lives for a smaller improvement>) then it should either be buffed. or an alternative should be created that yields more dps w/o the good dr bypass.

also: if turbine is leaning away from evil outsider based raids paladins will only drift further and further down the dps charts as they begin to lose that 10d6 dmg vs evil outsiders and have to deal w/ what is basically crappy melee compared to other classes.

its a lose-lose situation for paladins atm. either there's an artificer there making the weapon break dr anyways. or there's not enough dr for it to really matter or its not a raid with evil outsiders and the paladins are screwed anyways.

paladins are too pigeonholed into 1 method of dps. not to mention that the dps is against only 1 type of enemy.

[krogyy]

I think the bigger potential problem will come from adding metal types like silver to a weapon, which on weapons they don't have any damage values for someone to want them there whether its needed or not for DR. For instance, just thinking about letting my Epic Souleater get silver DR bypass pretty much throws out my plans to make a silver quarterstaff devil boss beater. (Provided I can get scrolls to UMD) Epic Souleater is good enough for an acrobat, that with (what I have) a +40ish damage bonus, I'm better off using it than a +5 metalline PG staff against bosses with 15 or less DR and 50% fort, and not too much behind a MinII. If I can always get that, I'll pretty much just go ahead and forget about using anything else just about.

i don't think you will be able to UMD the spell to your souleater. probably it will be similar to master touch and you'' be able to infuse only the weapon(s) you are wielding. two-handers and scrolls are mutually exclusive.

besides can the artificier add banishing or smiting?
for instance, banishing works on devil bosses and adds a lot of damage (19 per hit). paladins would benefit greatly if those infusion were available.