Bastard Sword Tank

[Krinn83]

Is a build like this viable?

Human Fighter (Stalwart Defender) 20

STR 18
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 8

19 feats:
3x Dragonmarks of Sentinel (for the new Epic Chimera's Fang, also used for PrE prerequisites)
1x Bastard Sword Proficiency
3x Two Handed Fighting
4x Greater Focus/Specialization
1x Power Attack
1x Improved Critical
3x Shield Feats
3x Toughness

Skills: Intimidate, Balance, 1 point into Tumble.

Goals: High dps using sword and board, high damage mitigation, high threat generation for tank duty, high enough intimidate.

Intimidate should be high enough to raise threat generation while tanking bosses if needed, even with low starting cha and no skill focus. Xyzzy and Epic DQ don't have to be intimidated anyway and epic brawn's spirits (or another +5 stackign intimidate) + coin lords favor should be enough to close the gap, and the whole dragonmark chain allows for more APs spent on intimidate.
AC is kinda useless at endgame, damage mitigation is way better so I take both shield masteries. AC is not worth any feat expenditure, since I will never use combat expertise anyway: power attack is the way to go while tanking, to better hold aggro. Perhaps SD plus items and maaaybe a few APs spent on it will still grant a good standing AC but I doubt it.
AP will be spent on DPS, healing amplification, hp, intimidate skill.
Stalwart Defender over Kensai for extra threat generation in stance, extra hp, intim bonus, free dr, save bonus, perhaps some AC.

Any comments?

[Carpone]

You're creating a character around a single weapon in the game. Personally, I'm not a fan of that approach. Also, Incite is not hard to obtain: 20% from Epic Claw set (which you'd wear for the +5 enhancement Intimidate and 30% Heal Amp), 10% from Epic Brawn's Spirits (which you'd wear for the +20 competence Intimidate), 50% from Stalwart Defender III and 50% from a shield is overkill. Also, with the current end-game bosses, Intimidate is not necessary - it's really only a benefit in Epic Zawabi's Revenge. I hold aggro on elite Horoth as a Barbarian just fine without the Stalwart Defender III, a shield or Intimidate.

[Asmodeus451]

@ Carpone: he's not bulding itaround just one weapon, if he were he would not have taken Bsword Proff at all, as the weapon in question GRANTS Bsword Proff when weilded. i'm guessing his plan is to use a HolyBurst Silver Bsword of X Bane or a Lit2 Bsword until he can use/acquire the eChimeraFang.

bsword + glancing blows + 20% offhand shield attacks might not be as much damage as TWF, but it can certainly compete, and with that much Threat Gen, he'll never lose aggro

to the OP: a little tip- Mithral bypasses Silver DR, and damage enhancements can be crafted on Shields. if you are looking to MAX OUT your damage output, i would reccomend crafting a +5 Holy Burst Mithral Tower Shield of Bashing. it will bypass Devil DR and do quite a bit of damage when that offhand shield bash procs. (bashing for some reason is typed as Force Damage, which is why i consider it the best of the Suffix damage enhancers)

[Krinn83]

Thanks for the answers
Yeah I was not building a character around a specific weapon, I just like the bastard sword glancing blows while using a shield. The Epic Chimera's Fang is just the best such weapon, and the dragonmarks also work as prerequisites for the PrE and unlock deneith intimidation up to tier IV.
Also, there are a couple interesting bastard swords in IQ and the newest pack.
Let's say I'm planning on eCF just like any other two handed fighter plans for eSoS.

Since this is a newly created toon on a new server, being able to hold aggro against TR barbarians, kensais, monsters and other very high dps toons will probably require all the help I can get at least for a while
Bastard sword cheapness on AH is also a plus until I become good enough at crafting.

Shield means -25% incoming damage. That, coupled with good healing amplification and high enough hit points should be nice for a tank's survivability. My only issue is dps and threat generation, and I hope this build will provide enough. 20% shield attack proc plus glancing blows will certainly help.

@Asmodeus:
Thanks for the tip about the shield, I'll certainly follow that. For me, the shield is not important for AC (although +5 tower shield is still +9 AC, nothing to sneeze at in some quests). It's curious that bashing is force and I hope the +5 enhancement to AC also works for to-hit and damage.
I'm also planning to have an adamantine construct bane tower shield to bypass golem DR and epic ward of undeath seems nice against undead. Too bad no shield works against cold iron afaik, or metalline can be added to a shield via cannith crafting?

[elraido]

Personally, I don't see why you don't at least try a little bit for ac. Realistically, you should be able to hit 60's with a toon like that with minimal gear. I would swap out a toughness for combat ex, Drop str by 1 and put those into int (with a +2 tome). It would give your build more versitility down the line....and that is what all S&B tank builds need.

[Krinn83]

More AC means less useful shield feats for damage mitigation, and I already tried a tank using combat expertise... -6 to damage (no power attack while using expertise, plus the -1 to strength mod) on each hit means that threat will be more difficult to build up.
I'd have to drop 44 hp (two toughness's) for +1/+6 AC (dodge and combat expertise) if I was to build for AC.
Also, I won't have +2 tomes until much later, since this toon is on a new server for me.

Let's see the AC breakdown

10 base
+16 armor (red dragon armor)
+9 shield (+5 mithral tower shield)
+7 dex (+2 base MDB, +2 SD, +2 Nimbleness, +1 Armor Mastery I)
+2 alchemical (+1 armor, +1 shield)
+5 protection (least dragonmark)
+1 dodge feat
+2 ToD set
+5 natural armor (epic chimera's crown)
+4 insight (epic chimera's fang)
+4 defensive stance
+3 PrE bonus
+5 combat expertise
+1 haste
____
74

+3 guild buffs
+4 AC song
+5 paladin aura
+1 dodge trinket from crystal cove if they put it again
+3 chattering (too much grind for this)
____
90

I'm probably missing something, but realistically I'll reach 74 AC, 69 while power attacking and that's pretty low.

Let's see the hp breakdown:

200 from hit dice
+200 con 30 (16 base, +2 tome, +6 item, +2 exceptional, +4 stance)
+20 heroic durability
+10 argonessen favor
+22 toughness feat
+20 racial toughness II
+20 fighter toughness II
+40 superior false life item
+20 toughness item
+45 shroud item
+20 extra from epic chimera's crown and three dragonmarks
+40 madstone rage
+40 yugoloth potion
+20 if I ever find a +4 con tome
+30 if I maximize AP spent on hit points (racial toughness III, human gr. adapt. CON, fighter toughness IV)
______

747 hp (791 if I have two more toughness instead of dodge and combat expertise)


Given these data, do you think combat expertise + dodge is a better way to use feats instead of two more toughness?

BTW, I already started this toon with 8 int, I'll probably keep him this way during this first life, but could increase int to 10 (and a +3 tome if I get lucky at my 20th shroud run) for my next life, if AC will matter enough. If AC is really useless, I might decrease dex to 10 and raise con to 18 instead.

My opinion is that where mobs hit harder (epic content), AC doesn't work no matter how high it is, so I'd rather help with more dps (power attack) and be happy with 68ish AC and more hit points.
In ToD, after sully spawns, I might as well turtle up to save resources against horoth, and let blocking DR plus shield damage mitigation take care of hits, but high hit points are a must for that 1-vs-disintegrate that can happen.
Feel free to comment and tell me if I'm wrong about all of this

[unbongwah]

4x Greater Focus/Specialization

There are 5 feats: WF/WS/GWF/GWS/SWF. Or were you planning to skip SWF? I suppose you don't need it if you're not going Kensai III, though I prefer to keep that option open.

If you really don't care about AC, what about pally 6 / ftr 12 - DoS I / Kensai II - with a monk or rogue splash for Evasion. Pally boosts your saves, Divine Righteousness provides a short-term threat boost, and Evasion helps avoid spell dmg. Not sure how it works out DPS-wise vs pure ftr SD, though; and you'd want to shift some build pts into CHA to get Divine Might I, I would think.

[Krinn83]

Skipping SWF, yeah.

Looking at various threads, it seems that AC might actually be useful if one works for it, even in epics.
So, I'm planning to increase INT to 12 and decrease CON to 14 to afford combat expertise and dodge in lieu of a couple of toughness feats. In following reincarnations, I'm putting extra points into CON for a final 16 starting CON on a 36 point build.

I need every single feat for the build if I also plan for meaningful AC, so any build other than fighter 20 seems a no go for me. I actually feel feat starved on a human fighter 20 lol.

My character will actually end up quite similar to this build:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=333158

STR 18
DEX 14
CON 14 => 15 => 16
INT 12
WIS 08
CHA 08

Feats:

1 Toughness
1 Dodge => if AC ends up useless after all the grinding, this can become Toughness
3 EWP: Bastard Sword => Probably shifted to (another) Toughness after I get my epic Chimera's Fang
6 Dragonmark, Least
9 Improved Critical (Slashing) => Maybe (yet) another Toughness after eCF if I find myself only using keen weapons
12 Dragonmark, Lesser
15 Combat Expertise => guess what, more Toughness if AC is useless
18 Dragonmark, Greater

1 Power Attack
2 Weapon Focus (Slashing)
4 Weapon Specialization (Slashing)
6 Improved Shield Bash
8 Shield Mastery
10 Greater Weapon Focus
12 Greater Weapon Specialization
14 Two Handed Fighting
16 Improved Two Handed Fighting
18 Greater Two Handed Fighting
20 Improved Shield Mastery

Skill ranks:
Intimidate 23
Jump 3
Balance 11
Tumble 11
Use Magic Device 11 (even if this will be low, it might be useful for restricted items)

[TimoteoDeLani]

Not sure how effective they are at top levels, but I've found the best effects to put on a shield are seeker and stunning.

At level 12 my dwarf (kenseii II vorpal daxe) with seeker +6 mithral tower shield and stun +4 utterly demolished most of the Vale wilderness.

[Entelech]

The problem as it currently stands is that he'll have difficulty getting and holding aggro.

The Stalwart Defender stance is bugged and does not generate additional hate. Intimidate is almost useless now.

And the 20% Incite bonus is nowhere near a match for doing 150-200% as much DPS by using TWF or legitimate THF.

They're trying to pass off a Bastard Sword build for the new Artificer class, but I suspect that the optimizers will still discover that you're better off with a Runic XXX in your offhand and a Khopesh as primary, at least without 4+ feats invested in Glancing Blows.


Also, as a general rule for Stalwart Defenders: Get a high Tumble skill somehow. It saves you having to click your stance on and off as much, if you don't mind rolling through dungeons like a tumbleweed on crack.

[Krinn83]

double post

[Krinn83]

The problem as it currently stands is that he'll have difficulty getting and holding aggro.

The Stalwart Defender stance is bugged and does not generate additional hate. Intimidate is almost useless now.

And the 20% Incite bonus is nowhere near a match for doing 150-200% as much DPS by using TWF or legitimate THF.

They're trying to pass off a Bastard Sword build for the new Artificer class, but I suspect that the optimizers will still discover that you're better off with a Runic XXX in your offhand and a Khopesh as primary, at least without 4+ feats invested in Glancing Blows.


Also, as a general rule for Stalwart Defenders: Get a high Tumble skill somehow. It saves you having to click your stance on and off as much, if you don't mind rolling through dungeons like a tumbleweed on crack.

Actually, intimidate gives me a +100% threat mod for 12 secs (using a shield) AND puts me on top of threat list on activation. I won't be able to turtle up in VoD (and similar) but I wouldn't anyway. It's just like free divine righteousness and I believe this change increased a tank's utility. Previously, one had to choose between hate-tanking and intimi-tanking, now a tank can (and should!) do both because they blend together nicely.

I don't know if SD3 is still bugged (I've read posts of the contrary), but if it is and I still have problems holding aggro, I can just as fine use SD2 wich is not bugged.

I'd not say that bastard sword + shield is 75% or 50% dps compared to a THF or TWF build. It'd be pretty close to a THF: I lose half STR mod and the base weapon damage (1 or 2 points) per swing, 5 from one handed power attack and the 6 extra damage from power surge, but I add 20% shield attack proc and the eCF also has many special effects that can proc unlike eSoS.

With the incoming buff on raid bosses, having extra dps at the expense of shield damage mitigation will be bad for a tank and nothing bars me from still using a two hander if I'm not on the receiving end of enemy dps, though I suspect that shield bash still makes up for the difference and if the shield AC and mitigation lets me avoid many epic hits, that's less resources used for the healer.
Hate equipment is easy to find/craft if I still have problems holding aggro, but I think hate items and intimidate won't be both necessary at the same time.

I foresee tanking without a shield and related feats won't be as easy by update 11.
I don't see the link between bastard swords and artificers (they don't even get proficiency or bonus martial feats). Heh, tumbling in stance is something I was doing a lot on my DoS on another server, it's funny and I'll definitely use that