Stun / Self Heal Build Critique

[Messsenger]

Will this build have high enough DC's to work with Stunning Blow and Stunning Fist; I'm not very familiar with top-notch gear or target numbers.
I'm sure this build's not close to max DPS or Tanking levels but I think it should be a very successful soloing build. I think the buffs and healing available from a renewable Ki resource is a pretty sweet concept. It can also be changed to Ninja with a feat swap and redesign of enhancements if it needed to be more endgame friendly. No ToD or Void Strikes, but some solid Kensei action.

Any other thoughts and input is welcome.

The Burst Generator
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
(12 Fighter \ 8 Monk) 
Hit Points: 358
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 13
Will: 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    26
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         10                    12
Wisdom               14                    18
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7  (could get away with a single +2 Dex)
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    10
Bluff                -1                     2
Concentration         6                    29
Diplomacy            -1                     2
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                     0
Heal                  2                     4
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate           -1                     2
Jump                  6                    30
Listen                2                     4
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                0                     1
Search                0                     1
Spot                  6                    25
Swim                  3                     8
Tumble                3                     4
Use Magic Device      1                    11

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Shuriken Expertise


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Point Blank Shot


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw


Level 7 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 8 (Fighter)


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Fighter)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Rapid Shot


Level 16 (Fighter)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 19 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 20 (Monk)
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV

Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Unarmed Specialization I
Enhancement: Kensei Unarmed Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II

Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Ten Thousand Stars

Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II

Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II

Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II

Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Adept of Rain

Almost forgot, what's the deal with crafting hand wraps being bugged?
It's going to be a huge turn-off if I'm not able to craft my own wraps . . .
Is this still an issue?
If so, does it work at all or only for certain recipes?

And the Light Monk Prestige seems like garbage unless you only ran certain dungeons, am I mistaken?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Holy on cannith crafted wraps doesn't stack with holy burst rings whereas holy on loot gen wraps does. That's about the sum of it really.

Fine concept. Shintao I is rubbish, don't go near it.

In general though, I'd be inclined towards a 12 monk / 6 fighter build for the flexibility to be a tank in Earth III.

[Messsenger]

Holy on cannith crafted wraps doesn't stack with holy burst rings whereas holy on loot gen wraps does. That's about the sum of it really.

Fine concept. Shintao I is rubbish, don't go near it.

In general though, I'd be inclined towards a 12 monk / 6 fighter build for the flexibility to be a tank in Earth III.

Sweet, I was hoping to make some vampirism or bodyfeeder wraps someday to add to the survivability. I'm not sure how long the self-healing of just Light moves and Wholeness of Body will last. This build with a battle cleric should be able to handle a decent amount of content I'd think.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Sweet, I was hoping to make some vampirism or bodyfeeder wraps someday to add to the survivability. I'm not sure how long the self-healing of just Light moves and Wholeness of Body will last. This build with a battle cleric should be able to handle a decent amount of content I'd think.

Sure but a pure monk might be better for that. Then if you're after tactics then you can look at dwarf, warforged or half-elf (fighter dilettante) for extra DC.

[Messsenger]

Sure but a pure monk might be better for that. Then if you're after tactics then you can look at dwarf, warforged or half-elf (fighter dilettante) for extra DC.

I was considering going pure monk but I had a few worries.

Terrible Prestige if I stayed light, at least IMO.

And I'm vain; I just hate the way Dwarves look . . . . Would be tough to give the healing amp, skill points, and I'm a fiend for feats.

How much would the DPS suffer dropping the fighter levels?
(won't be able to fit the ranged goodies in with fewer feats)
With the range feats I've listed, I should have a pretty effective shuriken throw utility until I'm in melee range, no?

[Adrian99]

You have kensai 2 so yes you've got good stunning dc. But self-healing, no you don't have that. You can either take halfling race and pick up the 3 dragonmarks or half-elf with cleric dilettante. Then you've got self-healing.

[DrNuegebauer]

You have kensai 2 so yes you've got good stunning dc. But self-healing, no you don't have that. You can either take halfling race and pick up the 3 dragonmarks or half-elf with cleric dilettante. Then you've got self-healing.

Depends what you mean by "self healing"?

He'll get plenty out of human/monk improved recovery 2 and fists of light/ cure pots/ vampiric wraps.
Sure, it might not heal him through the biggest encounters - but nor will cleric dilly/ halfling marks!

[Adrian99]

Depends what you mean by "self healing"?

He'll get plenty out of human/monk improved recovery 2 and fists of light/ cure pots/ vampiric wraps.
Sure, it might not heal him through the biggest encounters - but nor will cleric dilly/ halfling marks!

So just to clarify, you're saying that the level of self-healing achievable with FoL / cure pots / vampiric wraps is somewhat equivalent to having that plus either 5 heal spells per rest or no-fail heal scrolls? I just want to make sure I'm clear on the point of your comment.

[sebastianosmith]

Interesting build. I like the thrower aspects because I like flavor. One question I have is why no IC:Thrown to help out those poor stars? If you're going to invest that many feats and AP towards getting good at it, why not trade the Dodge at level 18 for IC:Thrown? Another +1 AC at 18 is going to provide very little benefit.

Oh, and yes Shintao I for a deep splash like that is marginal at best.

[Messsenger]

Interesting build. I like the thrower aspects because I like flavor. One question I have is why no IC:Thrown to help out those poor stars? If you're going to invest that many feats and AP towards getting good at it, why not trade the Dodge at level 18 for IC:Thrown? Another +1 AC at 18 is going to provide very little benefit.

Oh, and yes Shintao I for a deep splash like that is marginal at best.

Good point about the IC; I overlooked it. The only reason for dodge at all is for the ability to switch to Dark Ninja with a single feat swap (free) for monk path. I may just abandon the idea all together and re-evaluate the feats to fit in IC Ranged at an earlier level. I don't see myself becoming a potent DPSer without some more drastic overhaul anyways.

[Kinerd]

And the Light Monk Prestige seems like garbage unless you only ran certain dungeons, am I mistaken?

Shintao 1 and only Shintao 1 is pretty garbage. Shintao 3 is super duper awesome. A ranged stun, a fancy stun, a banish, a fort reducer, you bypass every worthwhile DR in game, and you don't have to waste AP on anything you wouldn't buy anyway (although there is a penalty feat).

I have never been impressed by halfling dragonmarks for their cost. You have to 1. be halfling and 2. spend at least 3 feats. Similarly, I have found dilettante to be slow and cumbersome which are two of the things I least want associated with my spike self-healing, although at least half-elf is a pretty good race in general (although although by no means a pretty race).

The build looks like it would play very Rangerly, which makes me wonder whether 12 Ranger would make more sense than 12 Fighter. I'm not sure how the feats would play out, but the possibility of adding Manyshot and IPS almost makes it irresistible.

[Messsenger]

Shintao 1 and only Shintao 1 is pretty garbage. Shintao 3 is super duper awesome. A ranged stun, a fancy stun, a banish, a fort reducer, you bypass every worthwhile DR in game, and you don't have to waste AP on anything you wouldn't buy anyway (although there is a penalty feat).

Don't these abilities only work on "tainted creatures" ? Do most endgame encounters apply?

I have never been impressed by halfling dragonmarks for their cost. You have to 1. be halfling and 2. spend at least 3 feats. Similarly, I have found dilettante to be slow and cumbersome which are two of the things I least want associated with my spike self-healing, although at least half-elf is a pretty good race in general (although although by no means a pretty race).

More like 4 feats, hard NOT to build for Maximize in this case. I tried a version of "Helli the Hellacious Hammerin' Halflin" ( http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=260560 ) and found it took away too many other tools. The healing wasn't too bad with maximize but it think it left the character very narrow . .

The build looks like it would play very Rangerly, which makes me wonder whether 12 Ranger would make more sense than 12 Fighter. I'm not sure how the feats would play out, but the possibility of adding Manyshot and IPS almost makes it irresistible.

I went back and fourth between Ranger and Fighter just to free up some stats from the Dex needed for TWF line.
I couldn't justify giving up the fighter: perks, strength, way better enhancements . . just too much to lose.
Besides, manyshot would mean bow and that means no 10k stars, I'd have to fit in Bow Str, Quick Draw doesn't apply to Bow . . I think 12 Fighter is the better option FOR ME here; did I mention I despise the mechanics of spell casting in DDO?

[Messsenger]

Here is the revised version, even shown without the +2x6 Stat Tome, just a +2 Dex used at lvl 7. Not much of a change.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
(12 Fighter \ 8 Monk) 
Hit Points: 338
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 14
Will: 13

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            16                    18  +2 Tome used instead
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               14                    16
Charisma              8                     8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               5                     10
Bluff                -1                     1
Concentration         6                    26
Diplomacy            -1                     1
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                  2                     3
Hide                  3                     3
Intimidate           -1                     1
Jump                  7                    18
Listen                2                     3
Move Silently         3                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  6                     9
Swim                  3                     7
Tumble                4                     4
Use Magic Device     -0.5                  10

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Shuriken Expertise


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 7 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 8 (Fighter)


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Thrown Weapons
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Fighter)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Rapid Shot


Level 16 (Fighter)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder


Level 19 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 20 (Monk)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Kensei Unarmed Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Unarmed Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Unarmed Specialization I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Ten Thousand Stars
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II

As long as the DC's are high enough, this one's going to be fun.

[sebastianosmith]

Don't these abilities only work on "tainted creatures" ? Do most endgame encounters apply?

"Tainted creatures" takes up a lot of ground - Undead, extraplanar thingies and aberrations. They make up a significant proportion of content 18-20. I can't really say if they are "endgame" any more as the game is about to undergo some significant changes. The bottom line is Shintao makes sense only if you intend to take two or three ranks of it, with three being obviously preferred.

Besides, manyshot would mean bow and that means no 10k stars, I'd have to fit in Bow Str, Quick Draw doesn't apply to Bow . . I think 12 Fighter is the better option FOR ME here; did I mention I despise the mechanics of spell casting in DDO?

Oh, you can have Manyshot and 10k Stars while using them both with a bow. wax_on_wax_off will let you know all about that if he responds again. Just for reference, here's my take on the subject. I'm not encouraging you to go this route because you know best what and how you enjoy playing - simply pointing out such a thing is possible.

Two comments about the revised build.

1. Shuriken are Thrown Weapons, not ranged. IC:Ranged will not augment them.

2. Why UMD 10? That puts you at best in a 25%-30% activation probability (without some epic gear) for anything worth casting and barely in reach of some alignment restrictions. I know the bit of odd luck here or there can save your bacon, but that's a lot of skill points for an uncertain outcome. You may be planning on epic gear and that's cool. Just curiosity on my part.

I hope you have fun with this build and best of luck!

[Messsenger]

"Tainted creatures" takes up a lot of ground - Undead, extraplanar thingies and aberrations. They make up a significant proportion of content 18-20. I can't really say if they are "endgame" any more as the game is about to undergo some significant changes. The bottom line is Shintao makes sense only if you intend to take two or three ranks of it, with three being obviously preferred.

Does Kukan-Do have a target restriction or can it be used on anything that's stunnable . and what's the range?

Oh, you can have Manyshot and 10k Stars while using them both with a bow. wax_on_wax_off will let you know all about that if he responds again. Just for reference, here's my take on the subject. I'm not encouraging you to go this route because you know best what and how you enjoy playing - simply pointing out such a thing is possible.

Two comments about the revised build.

1. Shuriken are Thrown Weapons, not ranged. IC:Ranged will not augment them.

Didn't even notice they were both available; but yeah, IC Thrown. Nice catch.

About Manyshot, is DDO Wiki wrong? I often take them word for word:

"Ten Thousand Stars: Activate this ability to enter a trance for 30 seconds (or until you become uncentered) that gives you a chance to throw multiple shuriken at a time. Wisdom increases your chance for additional projectiles and increases the potential number of additional projectiles. This ability will work with bows if you have the Zen Archery feat, but Manyshot and this ability cannot be used at the same time."
Many Shot also mentions arrows only, does it work with thrown? If this is the case I'll have to take another look before I get too far along.

2. Why UMD 10? That puts you at best in a 25%-30% activation probability (without some epic gear) for anything worth casting and barely in reach of some alignment restrictions. I know the bit of odd luck here or there can save your bacon, but that's a lot of skill points for an uncertain outcome. You may be planning on epic gear and that's cool. Just curiosity on my part.

I hope you have fun with this build and best of luck!

I'm not familiar enough with exactly how UMD works; I was under the impression that if one had a caster class splashed it made the requirements less. I've gotten away from the "caster" splash with this build now so it may be a total waste. I thought the Wiki mentioned that gear requiring a UMD roll could be worn until logging as long as the initial check passed when attempting to equip it.
10 base skill +
Walk of the Sun - Monk finishing move +2 untyped bonus
Human Versatility +4 action boost bonus
Persuasion item - craftable via Cannith Crafting, +3 competence bonus

Now were at 19 under specific circumstances, or are most uses of UMD for mainly scrolls and wands?
Dunno enough about UMD I guess, aside from everyone saying it's so great!

[Arlathen]

Couple of Comments:

1. 12 Fighter / 8 Monk is a very worthwhile split, one of the best for dual tactics stunning. A worthwhile tactics DC is anything of 40+. 42+ will work fairly well in Epics, 46+ will see some definite 75%+ reliability, 50+ is just insane. And being a Kensai 2 splash, this DC is very easy to come by on Stunning Fist:

10 Base DC
10 Character Levels
10 Stunning Wraps
04 Fighter Stunning Blow 4 Enhancement
02 Kensai 2 Prestige Bonus
07 Wisdom 24
= 43DC without even really trying

Bump that Wisdom to 30 and wear the Epic Spare Hand belt from cannith Challenges, and bamm thats 51DC on Stunning Fist. And thats just utterly gravy in current Epic content.

Also, don't forget that Monks proc a stunning fist/blow attempt on offhand attacks, so reality is that lower DCs have a better chance to land anyway thankss to mobs having to make 2 saves.

2.Don't dismiss Fists of Light and Healing Amp as a viable method of self-healing

Fists of Light is a nice little ability to supply a steady stream of incoming small healing. What can make it really insane is ramping up your Healing Amp so that the effect is mutliplied. Healing amp stacks multiplicatively, so the more seperate sources you have the greater the effect. As for some easy to gain Healing Amp:

100% Base
30% Monk (Usually taken as a Shintao Prestige requirement anyway)
20% Human
25% Jidz-Tetka Bracers when in Fire stance
10% Eldritch rune on Dragontouched Outfit
20% Tempest rune on Dragontouched Outfit
10% Guild Ship bonus
= 1.0 * 1.3 * 1.2 *1.25 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.1 = 2.8314, or 283% Heal Amp.

That means FoL will heal you for either +2HP or +5HP per strike, and if yo go human and take the full 30% enhancement bonus (costly) you will have a +3HP/+6HP healing per hit instead with +306% Heal Amp.

Don't forget this also applies to incoming healing from every other source, so your CSW pots will likely heal you for around ~90HP at 300% Amp and that Battle-Cleric's Radiant Aura will be ticking for awesome amounts once he gets it at lvl 12.

Edit: Forgot to comment about Dragonmarks / Dilletante

3. Halfling Dragonmarks and Cleric Dilletante
I'm firmly in the camp of Hafling Dragonmarks being 'meh' for the feat investment. I believe you also need a spellcasting level to be able to take meta-magics to improve Healing Dragonmarks, and that would be a waste on this type of build.

I personally prefer the Human option, but Half-Elf with Cleric Dilletante still serves very well as you still can get that 20% Human Improved Recovery. With the quoted 283% Heal Amp above, that means a quick Heal Scroll will hit you for 311HP - thats a fairly good bar filler after a fight. With your Fists of Light and occasional Wholeness of body, you really won't have to worry about self-healing except in heavy Raid situations.

[wax_on_wax_off]

UMD for a light monk:
11 base ranks
3 charisma (8 base +2 tome +6 item)
2 more charisma (yugo+ship buff)
4 GH
3 cartouche/T2/3 epic spare hand
3 epic big top/epic spyglass (or 1 with normal big top)
2 GL
3 even more charisma (some combination of +1/2 exceptional, lotd, +7 item, +3/4 tome)
2 walk of the sun
5 moment of clarity
5 human versatility: skills
2 7 fingered glOves
=45

This isn't to show what is expected just what is possible. If you get to 24 you'll have a useful UMD score (small chance on raise dead scrolls - which is still cheaper than Rise of the Pheonix, invisibility scrolls etc). It just gets better from there.

[sebastianosmith]

Does Kukan-Do have a target restriction or can it be used on anything that's stunnable . and what's the range?

It works on just about everything with the exception of most undead (I'm hazily recalling the undead claim so don't take that as gospel). The range is line of sight, so if you can see it you can stun it. Don't forget it works with your charisma modifier so having a +6 or better cha item comes in handy.

Didn't even notice they were both available; but yeah, IC Thrown. Nice catch.

Not a problem. We're all in this together.

About Manyshot, is DDO Wiki wrong?

{snip}

Many Shot also mentions arrows only, does it work with thrown? If this is the case I'll have to take another look before I get too far along.

I'm afraid we may have miscommunicated on this one. Manyshot does only work on arrows. I was referring to it's use with 10K Stars for a Monkanger build. 10K Stars applies to arrows as of U11 which gives that particular build combination a boost with bows as one can use 10k Stars while Manyshot is on timer. The combination is quite powerful.

I'm not familiar enough with exactly how UMD works; I was under the impression that if one had a caster class splashed it made the requirements less. I've gotten away from the "caster" splash with this build now so it may be a total waste. I thought the Wiki mentioned that gear requiring a UMD roll could be worn until logging as long as the initial check passed when attempting to equip it.
10 base skill +
Walk of the Sun - Monk finishing move +2 untyped bonus
Human Versatility +4 action boost bonus
Persuasion item - craftable via Cannith Crafting, +3 competence bonus

Now were at 19 under specific circumstances, or are most uses of UMD for mainly scrolls and wands?
Dunno enough about UMD I guess, aside from everyone saying it's so great!

19 will get you race restriction UMD (14 will most of the time). A 20 is required for most alignment restrictions.

"Caster Splashing" is not a way to get cheap UMD. Rogue, Bard and Atri splashing will get you cheap UMD.

I'll defer to Waxy's detailed outline above for what is possible UMD-wise. He's right if one is willing to grind hard, run countless epics (only a multiple of 3 as of U13 - maybe), get to know some bards, spend a lot of AP and gear swap just about every item.

UMD is likely the most versatile skill in the game. Whether you want to spend the effort obtaining a useful mastery of it is up to you. For a first life, 32 point monk, I question the choice but I'm somewhat lazy and dislike grinding. It all depends on what you want to do with your character.

[Messsenger]

I'm afraid we may have miscommunicated on this one. Manyshot does only work on arrows. I was referring to it's use with 10K Stars for a Monkanger build. 10K Stars applies to arrows as of U11 which gives that particular build combination a boost with bows as one can use 10k Stars while Manyshot is on timer. The combination is quite powerful.

This brings up a few more questions; of course, would it be better to change up a few feats and go bow instead of thrown? Does Wind Stance now apply to Bow firing speed as well, or still just thrown? Does Quick Draw have the same effect on Bows as it does Thrown Weapons?

"Caster Splashing" is not a way to get cheap UMD. Rogue, Bard and Atri splashing will get you cheap UMD.

I understand what you are saying here; I was just implying that a toon with one level of wizard (for example) is going to have an better chance to use an item that requires a UMD check as long as that item is arcane based (not divine, that would be Cleric) than a toon with no caster levels and the same UMD skill. Is that correct?

If so, does a Ranger or Pally get the benefit at early levels too . . before the gain the ability to actually cast spells?

To clarify:
If I were to roll a character similar to the Monster 12fighter/6ranger/2monk and the UMD came out to be 11, would this character have the same chance to use a divine item as:
a 20 Fighter with UMD 11? (no divine association)
a 18 Fighter/2Ranger with UMD 11? (no ability to cast divine spells)

I understand that the best way is to splash Rogue instead of Monk, but that's not what I'm trying to figure out.

[sebastianosmith]

This brings up a few more questions; of course, would it be better to change up a few feats and go bow instead of thrown? Does Wind Stance now apply to Bow firing speed as well, or still just thrown? Does Quick Draw have the same effect on Bows as it does Thrown Weapons?

The short answer is Nope. Using a bow without PS and IPS is not worth considering without going full-on Monkanger. IPS requires a 19 Dex which is going to really mess with your stats and level ups as a Fighter/Monk. AFAIK, wind stance only enhances thrown weapons and QD will shorten the time it takes to change from another weapon to a bow but not rate of fire. As a melee character, you're not going to use ranged weapons all that much. Your original idea of a beefy stunner with the capability of a semi-effective ranged attack is perfectly viable.

I understand what you are saying here; I was just implying that a toon with one level of wizard (for example) is going to have an better chance to use an item that requires a UMD check as long as that item is arcane based (not divine, that would be Cleric) than a toon with no caster levels and the same UMD skill. Is that correct?

Up to a point this is correct, but UMD has nothing to do with it. The probability of succeeding with a scroll or wand peters out pretty quickly with a single caster level. With one level of arcane caster you'd have about a 50% chance of using a fifth level arcane scroll or wand and it decreases about 10% for additional each level. Note that is is not the spell level - just the item caster level. Items with a caster level of 10 will be practically useless.

UMD has nothing whatsoever to do with levels of caster in either arcane or divine disciplines. Whereas castable spell level is directly linked to caster level, item level, and hence UMD, is not. Does that make sense?

If so, does a Ranger or Pally get the benefit at early levels too . . before the gain the ability to actually cast spells?

No, as UMD and the ability to cast spells are not interlinked.

To clarify:
If I were to roll a character similar to the Monster 12fighter/6ranger/2monk and the UMD came out to be 11, would this character have the same chance to use a divine item as:
a 20 Fighter with UMD 11? (no divine association)
a 18 Fighter/2Ranger with UMD 11? (no ability to cast divine spells)

This is correct. Character level is not part of the UMD equation (aside from gaining skill points). Each of your examples, sans any UMD-modifying gear, would have the same probability of using any UMD-checked item.


Hope this helps. And thanks for making the think about this again. It's been a while since I went over it.