Is multi-class only good for solo play?

[santiago66]

I'm beginning to think that my multi-class toons are great for solo play and duo parties but I'm finding it harder and harder to find groups to join when the toon gets to lev 8. The toon just doesn't add as much to the group as a single-class character.
Have other players experienced this situation and, if so, what advice can you offer?

[Kenpai]

It depends on the classes you're mixing together. A cleric/wizard/barbarian isn't going to get accepted to as many parties as a 18 wiz/2 rogue or a fighter/barbarian/ranger/rogue/monk mix.

[Eladiun]

This is entirely false. Many multi-class build are not only viable but superior is some ways to pure class builds. Over they years many multi's have been so good that they have been nerfed (i.e. Batman, Monster, Exploiter) and currently the Blitz multi is top DPS.

[Enoach]

This is interesting as the point of a multi-class character is trading features of one class for more desirable features of another class(es). Ideally this makes the character stronger/more rounded. However, there are some trade offs that are better then others.

Ideally you should be able to contribute in a group environment just as well as a full.

So now the question remains - have you defined the role/purpose of your multi-class build? Not sure what your mix is so not really able to assist you in understanding that part for your Character.

[FuzzyDuck81]

If you're having trouble grouping with yours, it's most likely to be because you might be using an unusual combination - at low levels the capabilties aren't impacted as much, but at mid to high levels any deficiencies in your build will become painfully obvious.

As a bit of general advice for multiclassing, you're best off planning out the entire thing in advance using one of the planners & going for things with abilities that complement each other - multiple casting classes are a bad idea since you'll be sub-par at both at later levels.

A few popular and effective multiclass builds:
- Wizard with rogue splash...2 levels of rogue taken at 1st & (typically) 9th levels, dump dexterity & take the insightful reflexes feat to use your INT for reflex saves instead of dexterity.. they can handle disarming etc. as well as most pure rogues, have a functional evasion & dont lose too much spell power. Many versions of this present on the forums, the "best" are usually warforged since you can self heal through repair/reconstruct spells but if going pale master any race can work. Very common & one of the few "no questions asked" multiclasses because its so well known & accepted.
- Ranger with rogue splash...for tempest melee rangers mainly, you gain a bit of sneak attack to boost damage & get enough skillpoints to keep your trap skills maximised. Often 1 level of rogue at 1st level then 1 monk or fighter level later on for a bonus feat. Another very common one where the gains massively outweigh the losses from not staying pure.
- Cleric with monk splash... AKA the "clonk", typically 18 cleric & 2 monk levels, grants evasion & 2 bonus feats.. loses out on some spell penetration but in water stance gains +2 to wisdom to boost spell DCs. Sometimes a 3rd monk level will be added to benefit from the elemental-positive-elemental-finisher buffs (primarily water/pos/water for 25% SP discount for 60secs). For melee use, it can often get a surprisingly high stunning fist DC thanks to high wisdom.

There are many 12/6/2 builds too, where people will usually have the 1st 2 prestige enhancement tiers from 1 class, one 1st tier PrE from the other class then the other 2 levels will be a splash for other benefits.. 12ranger/6fighter/2monk is a popular one for 2weapon melees since you can get tempest2 from ranger plus some nice spells, extra feats & 1st tier kensai from the fighter & a couple more bonus feats from the monk levels.

Multiclass builds can be awesomely effective when built well & played to their strengths - the main thing is to remember to try not to do too much - in general, i'd say aim for a primary focus to be particularly good at, then a secondary "is also effective at" with any other capabilities you get as an "incidentally can also do, but not really a focus".

[IgorHackNSlasher]

If you posted some info on your character someone might be able to help you out a bit better and possibly give you some direction. A good multi class needs to be planned out in advance, not done on a whim.

[stille_nacht]

simply put, if you multiclassed together two classes that are not mutually beneficial, then no, you wont bring more to a party than a pure class, (sometimes you'll even do worse solo as you progress to higher levels).

however, if you multiclassed together classes that are mutually beneficial (ex: 2 rog /18 wiz for insighftul reflexes evasion, 12 fighter/6 barbarian/2 rog for kensai II frenzied berzerker, sneak-attack damage), then you will in many cases perform better than the pure class. (though i prefer pure wiz, being a minmax-y sort :P)

[Arnhelm]

For myself, I keep my chars pure even for solo play. Multi is too much work for a lazy old man like me.

[Bodic]

other good examples

16/2/2 Bard/Ftr/Rog ( I use 17/1/2)
13/7 Rog/Mnk

bad examples:
10/10 or any mix of Arcane and Divine.
1 lvl of sorc used to double item SPos not any more the double is now only based on Sorc/FvS lvls.

In fact any burst of a casting class is not a great Idea. If you want that take UMD or Helf Dilly.

[Schmoe]

I'm beginning to think that my multi-class toons are great for solo play and duo parties but I'm finding it harder and harder to find groups to join when the toon gets to lev 8. The toon just doesn't add as much to the group as a single-class character.
Have other players experienced this situation and, if so, what advice can you offer?

Multi-class characters can be just as effective as single class characters. Sometimes they can be more effective.

The key is to define the character's role. If you try to do everything, you won't be good at anything. It is especially difficult to multi-class with the traditional spell-casting classes, such as wizard, cleric, and sorcerer. Multi-classing is also something I wouldn't recommend for someone's first character. As you've probably noticed, a multi-classed character has the potential to be very disappointing if you haven't planned it correctly. You should make sure you have a solid understanding of what the classes have to offer and how the different tradeoffs will affect your character before you decide to multi-class.

The build forums have some great multi-class builds. If you want to learn more about various multi-class combinations, read some of the existing threads. You'll learn a ton. If you want advice on a particular mix of class roles, or a particular mix of classes, feel free to start a thread to ask for advice. There are a lot of helpful people on the forums who would be more than happy to share their experiences.

[JasonJi72]

If you step away from the main road, you will encounter a rougher ride.

Yes, many multiclass builds are fun and viable.

I do not think splash builds should be thought of as multiclass builds.

I was working on a 'strange' multiclass build before I had connection issues. My goal was to simply get a ranger past life, while making an 'outside the box' character.

My build is an Arcane Archer Dual Kopesh trapmonkey self buffer. 11 ranger, 8 wizard, 1 rogue.

11 ranger gives most of the archery and 2wf feats I need. 8 wizard gives some very nice buffs with decent durations, and I don't have to switch to a wand or use a clickie. The trap skills are for soloing, and making it easier to get into groups.

I get accepted as a last resort trapper fill (unless I have run with them before), and they usually still try to find a rogue even though I can handle the traps. I pass out buffs, actually cast haste, am always at the top of the kill count, and very survivable and self sufficient. Yes, I know I need to use divine power clickies. I have more than enough of them. The hardest part is when you have a wizard icon, but you are built as a melee/archery ranger.

My build really is an elven f/mu flavor build, and I accept that. I know it is not the most uber, but I enjoy playing it. Isn't that what it's all about?

The funny thing is, that most of the people who complain about how easy the game has become are the same ones who will tell you that if you do not have the most optimal build with X, Y, and Z gear, then there is no way you are getting into their raid group. Oh, and you have to know it like the back of your hand too.

My main is a 12 Bard, 6 ranger, 2 rogue.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My build is an Arcane Archer Dual Kopesh trapmonkey self buffer. 11 ranger, 8 wizard, 1 rogue.

[Thrudh]

My build is an Arcane Archer Dual Kopesh trapmonkey self buffer. 11 ranger, 8 wizard, 1 rogue.

You make me happy...

When the cap was 16, my favorite character for a long time was a 11/5 Ranger/wizard. When the cap was raised to 20, I got him to 12/7/1 ranger/wizard/rogue...

Very fun character... Extremely self-sufficient.

But, after a while, you collect magic items that emulate all your spells (even lasting longer), so you realize there's not as much point to the wizard levels.

But I agree that a ranger/wizard is a fun build. (You don't get a whole lot of ranger bonuses for the levels past level 12, so trading those levels for some spells or some feats is a good deal)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

it depends.

There are many useful multi-class builds that work wel in groups at (current) end game.

But....
Turbine keeps adding more and more reasons to stay pure. So you have to be careful with multi-classing, and there is no guarantee that they will not change the game somehow and make you regret it.

But... we have GRs and LRs now... up to +5.
I spent a ton of TP and changed a lvl 15 Ftr into a lvl 15 Rgr... So if you want to thow money at the problem, you can change any char eventually.

[TheDjinnFor]

Multiclass builds are neither better nor worse than pure builds. Ideally, you would think the point of multiclassing is to give up levels in classes that you don't need or want in exchange what you think is more beneficial levels in another class. Typically, however, this is not the case for new players, because they don't understand that when they add a level in a second class they delay their advancement in their main class even as the content gets tougher, and they forever lock themselves out of level 20 (or level 19, or 18, and so on) in their main class.

The second point above largely deals with end game and thus is the primary point of contention for most players. Splits like 10 wizard/10 cleric basically bring as much power as a pair of level 10s would (one wizard, one cleric), but with half the casting speed, and less overall hp and sp. Try and bring two level 10s into a level 20 quest and see how successful that is, and you'll understand what I mean when I say the above split is pretty useless as a caster.

The first point above is often overlooked, but important for the original topic of discussion. A prime example is 17cleric/2 monk/1 fighter; this is a fairly strong melee divine build at cap when built and played right, but problems with leveling may arise when you take all of the melee classes first. You'll notice that if you try to play it as you would a cleric for most levels (buffing, some offense spells, healing, and some melee) you'll have trouble. Say, for example, you join the crucible on hard at level 13 that says "Need Healer"; you might regret it once you realize that a 10 cleric/2 monk/1 fighter doesn't have the Heal spell... so unless your allies can take care of themselves or you can solo it as a melee, you'll find the difficulty is a lot higher than if you were a level 13 cleric.

To make a proper multiclass build that won't be a chore to level and will be a potent end-game class, you'll need a good understanding of the entire game; you will want to know the kinds of challenges you'll face each level so you can be prepared for them, and you'll also want to know what each class gives and loses at each level and how this will affect its viability. Or, you can post want you want and what your goals are with a particular toon and ask those with experience to give you a hand and help you understand whether your expectations are realistic and how to achieve those goals with a good build. In your case, more specifics are needed.

Multi-classing is certainly a powerful tool but requires a certain amount of expertise to wield...

[Galeria]

I looooove my multi-classes. I really do. But if you are starting out, it's a good idea to run a single class while you learn how things work. Or a few different single classes.

One of the keys to multi-classing (IMHO) is knowing what it is you are trying to do AND what you are giving up by adding that. There's always a trade off.

Being familiar with feats and enhancements is really key to making an effective multi-classer and spending some time on DDOwiki reviewing what each class gets at which level can be the difference between a truly gimped character and an effective multi-purpose toon.

When I started playing, my husband told me to use the character planner to plan out what I wanted to build but I'll be honest with you- without the knowledge of prestige classes, enhancements and feats it was just an exercise in making sure I didn't end up with half-skill points. Because I didn't know what I was doing.

What stacks with what, what works with what are the real "tricks" to making an effective MC. Look at shared stats (Rogue/Wiz makes an excellent mix because of the Intelligence overlap, for example) and shared skills (Concentration helps both casters and monks) and anything else that overlaps and figure out how to use that to your advantage.

A first-life multiclass is probably not going to be very effective in Epic content, but if you are having a good time playing it, run Shroud til you get your GS and start over at 1.

[JasonJi72]

Multiclass builds require much more thought and planning to play. Make sure you know what you are are gaining, and what you are losing. Learn to play to your strengths, and know your weaknesses.

Above all else... have fun with it!

[EpiKagEMO]

I like what everyone says about the multiclasses above.
What tends to happen

Battle caster tanks
-easily replaced by real tanks at higher levels
-is forced to haste the party and pike
-turns to support
-oh.. a tank for vod... great we need you! 1 cleric and arcane healing himself?

Healing+battle
-forced to heal instead of fighting.
-turns to support

DPS spec multies
-gets better dps at lvl 20.
12/6/2s i think.

What tends to happen to me
-We wiped... what if we had a "pure" class instead of me, the multiclass? i feel totally useless... 5% of time
-*declined* .....well F*** you! your going to wipe! 5% of time
-wahahaha save! 90% of time
-this squishy wf caster will tank better than you fighter and barb 99% of time

Unless you can prove yourself as a great asset battle caster and rush tank w/o having trouble keeping hp bar high/getting top kills while buffing party w/ haste, you'll probably get some good spread rep. really depends on what kind of party combo you have :3

last words
-know what you bring to the table.
-know your limitations
-go enter a quest and see how long you'll last then join (jk)
-multies are REALLY fun!
-not alot of people like multies cuz they think pures are definetly better. well they havent seen the real sturdy built ones >
or... they havnt checked the forums! :3
-Wish you luck. Khybers usually nicer on multies i believe.

Hopefully this wall of text helped you understand a little :/

[Alex301]

Multi-classing has a lot to offer but most don't really come together until they're near cap. They allow for much more versatility than a pure build while retaining a lot of the key features of one.

The blitz build for example offers the speed of a barbarian, higher health than a fighter as well as evasion and UMD from rogue. It's not necessarily better dps than a pure fighter or barbarian but it is roughly on par with them while offering many things the pure builds simply can't offer.

Whether multi-classing is better than pure builds really depends on your goals for the build. Both have their merits and i wouldn't say one is better than the other, they just offer different things. Poorly built and played and they will both add very little, although this is more easily done with multi-classing, but if played and built well they are both viable and can perform equally well.

[Therigar]

Have other players experienced this situation and, if so, what advice can you offer?

As you can tell, there are many different perspectives.

Here is my take on multiclasses.

If you are a player who intends to reach L20 and stay there for a long time -- running high-level quests and epics -- then you are best off with a pure class or well accepted multiclass. There are several commonly accepted multiclasses mentioned in the other posts in this thread.

OTOH, if you are a player who intends to reach L20 and quickly reincarnate then you are best off with a multiclass that gives you a lot of immediately useful skills or abilities even if those will be near useless on high level content.

The reason for my thinking is this....

If you are planning to stick around for a long time at L20 then you need to fit into the expectations of players running high-level and epic content. You need a build that is designed to deal with elite L20+ quests and raids. This means you are giving up almost everything to fit into a relatively narrow role at end game. The reward is that you are very, very good at that role and this helps the entire group to be successful.

If you are planning to jump right into a new character then the focus is on the journey to L20. This may involve lots of PuGs or soloing and almost always is limited to normal and hard content once you get to Reaver's and Vale. You don't need much elite content there for the XP to hit L20. What you do need is a character that has a lot of tricks up its sleeve -- one that can self-heal in a pinch, solo in a pinch, UMD or raise dead in a pinch, etc. All the while it also needs to be able to do its main job reasonably well -- but it doesn't need the single-mindedness of purpose that the other type of build has. That is because you never know for sure what you might need to be able to do.

In the first case this is easiest done by having a narrow focus and a pure or almost pure character. But, in the second case it is easiest done with a multiclass that splashes in enough of one or two other classes to make sure the job always gets done. It might get done sloppily, but it gets done.

Anyway, I expect others will have contrary views -- but that is how I see it.