three way multi class.

[xSeverinax]

Hi guys, this is an idea I am playing with at the moment, I won't post the stats, feats etc of the build as they are irrelevant. I am after an opinion on a level split as follows;

Fighter 10, Rogue 9, Bard 1

Fighter 10 gives me the feats I need - just. Rogue for traps and sneak damage plus all my first life gear is rogue based. The bard level is to get the bard energy of music enhancement which will open up the Arcane Archer prestige for me (half elf) I have Fighter Kensai 1 with TWF specialisation, my Rogue prestige is Mechanic as assassin 1 is poor. So will getting AA be worth it for the ranged dps? Plus of course minimal Bard buffs and minor healing (empower healing and 75% ardour clicky).

My other choice is to go 12 fighter / 8 Rogue, which will give me 3 extra feats (will be able to drop ranged focus and point blank shot) and Kensai 2, but limited ranged dps and scroll or potion healing only. I have a T3 GS spell point item, 20% healing amp and throw in bard healing enhancement for a further 10%, so plenty of spell points to last between shrines for self healing).

What do you think? On paper the AA looks very good, but so is Kensai 2.

[Jevern]

So you're looking at a secondary focus on ranged?

I dont really think it's worth it, but I'm only getting a vague idea of what you want. I'd prefer a 12/8 split if only given those two choices. I think it's likely that you are overstretching your toon though. Why not just go ranger/fighter/rogue if you want a TWF toon who can also focus on ranged attacks? I'd imagine most of the feats you're getting on your toon would be free feats for a ranger. And you get wands and whatnot as well, though scrolls may be a bit more of a problem.

It's likely that people will want to know more specifically what you want to do with your build, or it becomes hard to give an opinion. (As an aside, how'd you get a T3 GS spellpoint item as rogue gear?)

[Kenpai]

(As an aside, how'd you get a T3 GS spellpoint item as rogue gear?)

It was obviously so he could use Align Weapons and the Potion Bomb spells. Oh, wait... he was talking about the Gimped Artificer class? My bad.

As for my opinion, I personally love three-ways, but they're not for everyone.

[xSeverinax]

I will answer the last question first as it is easiest. The T3 GS is a trip positive necklace, I took it because it gave me +6 exceptional Charisma skills bonus - perfect for bluff, diplo and UMD, it also gave me a raise dead clickie and at the time I was in love with bards and decided that I would TR into a bard. However... I then TR'd another toon into a bard and decided that I didn't want to be running 2 bards. So...

I want rogue because I really enjoy playing them. My past life was a pure assassin, and I have a lot of epic gear waiting for me - like Epic Utility Vest, Treasurehunters Spyglass and so on. But I didn't want to be just a rogue, so initially I picked Paladin with a rogue splash. I have decided that I don't enjoy playing a paladin, so LR'd into a fighter / rogue deep splash.

My idea for the character is solid DPS, almost always running in a group, and doing epic questing when I get back to lvl 20. I use a falchion, well several different ones situationally, have power attack, weapon specialisation, Kensai weapon mastery etc. The rogue levels give me 5D6 SA situationally, Traps (DD is in low 50's at lvl 17) plus UMD for scroll healing and of course evasion. I was thinking AA so that I could attack further away targets and whittle down their HP before they reach the party and then switch to my falchion when they get into melee range. Though I have the light repeater from Chrono to do that, I also have a very nice upgraded gnoll warbow which would be nice to use with the slaying arrows from AA. My end stats will be (off the top of my head) Str 34, Dex 20, Con 26, Int 21, Wis 12, Chr 20 with just ship buffs. I have around 458 HP unbuffed with another 3 levels to go and no Argonessan favour yet +20 from false life and only T2 HP item, so will be a bit over 500 at lvl 20 unbuffed. ( I have a +30 false life item in the bank waiting for me to hit lvl 18)

[Zargarx]

Fighter 12 Kensei II is a favorite split for the huge boost it gives, rogue 10 gives a special feat (e.g. improved evasion).
What about fighter 12/ rogue 7 / bard 1? With a decent int, should have enough skill points.

[xSeverinax]

I thought about that split but rogue 8 gives improved uncanny dodge, which is really good.

[Ungood]

9 Rogue can get improved evasion. so you will want to keep those 9 levels of rogue.

As for the 10 fighter and 1 Bard, that sounds like a solid split. I think this could be a very fun build. I don't see anything inherently bad with this build on the surface, beyond people just not having too much a clue what you are trying to do, but Rogue/Fighter/Bard is not that off the wall.

[Kenpai]

9 Rogue can get improved evasion. so you will want to keep those 9 levels of rogue.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Rogue_Special_Ability
Rogues can select one additional feat at levels 10, 13, 16, and 19 from the list below. Skill Mastery may be taken more than once.

[xAlistairx]

I think you'll find that Kensai 2 is better than improved evasion. Otherwise, don't even bother going to Fighter 10 IMO.

I would say 18 Fighter/1 rogue/1 bard if you want trap skills and arcane archer. Otherwise, maybe 16 Fighter/2 Rogue/2 Bard? No first rogue tier is really worth the levels, and 2 bard will make your songs slightly better.

[xSeverinax]

Fighter 10 is for feats and higher HP as stated. But I don't want a lvl 18 fighter, that would be a bit boring. Plus I really don't see how someone with a single level of rogue can get 23 skill ranks in Spot, Search, OL, DD, Bluff and UMD. Perhaps you could explain to me how to do that Alistair?

A maximum of 4 skill ranks in each at char gen, plus a half point in each for 18 levels, would total 13, plus 3 or 4 in bluff and UMD from the Bard level. You are looking at mid 40's for a well geared epic toon. and that would be in light armour, with no evasion. If I went for a lvl 18 fighter I wouldn't be wearing my epic rogue armor, I would be wearing my heavy plate. That would mean a drop of 5 in each of DD and OL from the enhancement bonus, a drop of 1 from the excep int bonus and a drop of 2 from the excep dex skills bonus. Plus and extra minus 2 because my armour gives me a +2 good luck bonus. Then there will be another -2 from losing the mechanic prestige class and a -1 because you won't qualify for the +2 enhancements, so we are looking at mid to high 30's at the most. There is no way that I can figure, with out going crazy with yugo pots and +4 tome's etc that you could do epic level traps with just 1 rogue level.

Also - as far as I can see in the wiki, there is no difference in bard songs between level 1 and level 2, except for the enhancement giving an extra +1, which I won't have enough AP's to buy anyway.

My question is, is the AA prestige good enough to warrant changing from 12/8 fighter/rogue to 10/9/1 f / r /b ?
Is losing the Kensai 2 prestige offset by getting the improved ranged abilities of AA?

[katz]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Rogue_Special_Ability
Rogues can select one additional feat at levels 10, 13, 16, and 19 from the list below. Skill Mastery may be taken more than once.

10? ****, i thought it was 9. my bad. i'm the one who informed Ungood it was 9th sorry

[Phidius]

...
As for my opinion, I personally love three-ways, but they're not for everyone.

Agreed. It does make things interesting though, especially if you ever want to replace one of them.

[xAlistairx]

@Katz You must be thinking of monk.

@Severina You'd have to make sacrifices. On the other hand, you could go 17 rogue/2 fighter/1 bard for more feats. Keep in mind, you don't need the mental toughness feat if you pick up the bard sp enhancement. Then you'd lose some feats and hp, but gain a lot of sneak damage, skill points, and rogue feats.

The reason I wouldn't say 18 rogue is because Rogue Assassin 3 isn't really important for an archer.

[ainmosni]

I think you'll find that Kensai 2 is better than improved evasion. Otherwise, don't even bother going to Fighter 10 IMO.

I would say 18 Fighter/1 rogue/1 bard if you want trap skills and arcane archer. Otherwise, maybe 16 Fighter/2 Rogue/2 Bard? No first rogue tier is really worth the levels, and 2 bard will make your songs slightly better.

7 rogue is about 40 points of sneak attack damage a hit.

the 12/7/1 is an outstanding dps build, took my ranger through a 12 rng/7 rog/1 monk life, and he easily far out dps'd my barbarian. my claw set esos wielding half-orc +3-tomes eaten barbarian.

fear the power of the rogue splash!

[ainmosni]

@Katz You must be thinking of monk.

@Severina You'd have to make sacrifices. On the other hand, you could go 17 rogue/2 fighter/1 bard for more feats. Keep in mind, you don't need the mental toughness feat if you pick up the bard sp enhancement. Then you'd lose some feats and hp, but gain a lot of sneak damage, skill points, and rogue feats.

The reason I wouldn't say 18 rogue is because Rogue Assassin 3 isn't really important for an archer.

vorpal strikes on a natural 20 work with ranged weapons- a friend of mine has an assassin rogue who uses repeaters, and they work. just can't use the assassinate ability

[Phidius]

... Plus I really don't see how someone with a single level of rogue can get 23 skill ranks in Spot, Search, OL, DD, Bluff and UMD. Perhaps you could explain to me how to do that Alistair?
...

+1 for giving me a quote for the next outcry against rogue splashes.

While most people understand the backstabbing goodness from being mostly rogue, a lot of people miss the benefit from the abundance of skill points and class skills that come with rogue.

[xSeverinax]

@Katz You must be thinking of monk.

@Severina You'd have to make sacrifices.... you don't need the mental toughness feat if you pick up the bard sp enhancement.

Yeah, thats why I chose bard, I have enough AP to buy Bard energy of music, which will give me AA. It was either that or Wizard or Sorcerer, both giving less HP, and useless lvl 1 arcane spells, given that I have 30% striders and a ff item. The lvl 1 attack spells would be worse than useless in epic quests, I guess I could cast grease and burning hands for fun... The healing from bard - while limited - is going to be much more useful when combined with superior ardor and healing amp. Bards also get more skill points and UMD is a class skill so it is definately the best option of the three.

10 fighter is the minimum I can take for feats, I will have 3 spare when I LR on Wednesday, 1 will be for power attack, 1 will be for GTWF and the third will be for empower healing. If I had fighter 12 I could use the extra feat for Greater weapon focus, but that would mean losing a rogue level and thus losing improved uncanny.... So now I am down to the nitty gritty, improved uncanny dodge or kensai 2, better BAB and 4 extra HP.... I think maybe kensai will win out.