Healing, healing amp, and warforged

[demtutor]

Looking for some clarification on how this whole thing works.

A lengthy discussion ensued last night after I upped my "Healers Friend" Enhancement line to mitigate the complaining heard from healers. Now don't get me wrong, I know that healing warforged sucks ... but I am starting to wonder if there is anything that can be done about. **Beyond tons of uber gear, of course**

The wiki does a good job of explaining the DDO math involved and I think I get that part, see this site for a refresher -

http://ddowiki.com/page/Healing_Amplification

The character I'm playing has 800+ hp most of the time (20 fighter, barb past life, madstone, etc.) and tends to be a damage and mana sponge.

There were multiple schools of thought and I'd like to hear if one, all, or none of these makes sense to rest of you.

The difficulties encountered when healing this character is due to -

1) Inherent warfarged inadequacies. WF start 50% less and only get up to "normal" with gear and enhancements. The rest of the fleshy party, on the other hand, is at >+30% amp and when compared to the WF ... well, the WF looks real bad.

2) Spell choice. Considering that most fleshies are at >+30% amp, most healers use Cure Mass/Moderate which may top a fleshy and leave a WF still less than full.

3) Topping this character with mass cures is not wise. Lower amp and higher max hp means this guy will always need a personal heal spell to get topped off.

And one that I can't find any confirmation for anywhere:

4) The DC's of the healer's conjuration spells is not high enough to overcome WF "resistance". This confused me the most since I don't think characters save against "friendly" spells (PvP and Pale Master forms excluded). The explanation here was that critical heals will happen more often against non-warforged because the DC is lower for a fleshy.


Anyone got a better grasp on this?

[Kinerd]

If you have at least one rank of Healer's Friend and put effort into healing amp, you'll be easy enough to heal. I can't tell you how many fleshy melees I've seen that didn't bother with healing amp on my healer. If you've maxed your healing amp and are still concerned, improve your defense in other ways: better Reflex save, UMD/clicky fire shield, elemental absorption items, etc.

4) The DC's of the healer's conjuration spells is not high enough to overcome WF "resistance". This confused me the most since I don't think characters save against "friendly" spells (PvP and Pale Master forms excluded). The explanation here was that critical heals will happen more often against non-warforged because the DC is lower for a fleshy.

Neither of these are true: there is no save against healing, and criticals have nothing to do with DCs.

[Uska]

If you really want to improve it get 3 past lives as a paladin although it doesnt seem worth the effort.

[~Glouscester]

Even at Healer's Friend III and 30% healing amp you aren't at back to 100%.

150 *.75 (Healer;s friend III 75%) *1.3 (30% healing amp) = 146

What can be done is for the healer to bump up the heals in a way that should render out going heals to a level that will render healing amp moot in this argument. Pali's can get enough healing amp to make healing scrolls a viable alternative to standard spells (you my friend will never reach that I'm guessing).

Empower Heal effects all of the healing spells.

Maximize, Empower, and Empower Heal effect all of the healing spells except Heal and Mass Heal.

These are additive multipliers....(Ardor can replace Devotion as can Potency, but for simplicity we'll use Devotion) (We'll also ignore crit heals since they can't be relied upon)

With Superior Devotion VI (50%), Life Magic 4 (40%) (These two bonuses stack and are applied to the base)

Base spell * (Devotion/Potency Bonus + Life Magic Enhancement) * Feats = Outgoing healing

For Heal:
150 * 1.9 * 1.5 = 427.5 (I think it always rounds up though...so, 428)

For Cure Serious:
31 * 1.9 * 2.9 = 170.81

So, +290% can be applied to out going cure mods, serious, crits, and lights, + 140% to heal and mass heal.


Now let's compare some Healer's Friend scenarios...

First one is no Healer's Friend and 50% healing amp, bringing the supposed healing up to 100%

150 * .5 (standard WF heal rate) * 1.2 (20% healing amp) * 1.3 (30% healing amp) = 113

Healing amp has less of an effect than Healer's Friend since it is applied post division.


Here is a range of scenarios:

150 * .5 * 1.2 = 90 (No Healer's friend and 30% healing amp)

150 * .65 = 98 (Healer's Friend I no healing amp)

150 * .65 * 1.2 = 117 (Healer's Friend I and 20% healing amp)

150 * .70 = 105 (Healer's Friend II and no healing amp)

150 * .70 * 1.2 = 126 (Healer's Friend II and 20% healing amp)

150 * .75 = 112 (Healer's Friend III isn't worth the 6 ap investment)

So, you are better off getting Healer's Friend II than 20% healing amp

It is a little deceiving since if you have no Healer's Friend and healing amp for 50% (100% total) you would have LESS healing amp than if you had just Healer's Friend II and 20%.

Can a Dev actually weigh in on Healer's Fried III? Why did they choose the progression in a way that made the final large ap investment not really worth the price? It isn't a big enough increase to warrant 6 ap's of investment. It would be great to bump that final ap up to 10%. Either do 60%, 70%, 80% or keep it as is for 65%, 70%, 80%.

[Forgeborn]

(Base Heal Amount * ( 0.5 + Warforged Healers Friend Amount )) * Healing Amp 1 * Healing Amp 2 * etc.

6 AP investment gets you up to Warforged healer's friend II, which makes your 'base' heal amp 70%
Dragontouched: 10% heal amp
Dragontouched: 20% heal amp
Epic gloves of the claw: 30% heal amp
Jorasco ship buff: 10% stacking heal amp
0.7*1.1*1.2*1.3*1.1 = ~1.32132

Heal scroll, without wand and scroll mastery, hits for 110 points, thus would hit 145.3452 (round down, as usual, to 145)

Or, if you'd prefer:
Warforged Healer's friend II: +20% base
Fleshmaker: +10% base
levik's bracers: 20% heal amp
Epic gloves of the claw: 30% heal amp
Jorasco ship buff: 10% stacking heal amp
0.8*1.1*1.2*1.3 = ~1.3728

Heal scroll, without wand and scroll mastery, hits for 110 points, thus would hit 151.008 (round down, as usual, to 151)

As another poster said: Warforged healer's friend III is not worth the AP investment in many cases.

Note that you can help your fvs/cleric out in quests by supplying them with heal scrolls to use on you, to help out with the (lack of) healing amp, or spot them a major mnemonic potion if you see them struggle with sp to keep you up.
---
1) A lot of fleshbags don't bother with healing amp, since they assume it's the cleric/fvs' sacred duty to keep them healed at all costs, even more so with 'newer' players, or players who are used to the 'wow' mindset of having a dedicated healer.

2) Mass cures are actually pretty SP inefficient if you compare them to mass heal, so it's in many cases better to cast mass heal, Mass cures have their place though, they are pretty handy if the cleric/fvs is doing something else also, like melee'ing or blasting, or if the party is in need of burst healing (see, Epic ADQ1, ball method, while the queen is raging), this is mainly due to their faster cast speed.

3) Topping anyone of with mass cures is not wise, (my definition of 'topping off' is that the character is damaged for less then 10%) if they so desperately want that HP filled up, let them suck potions, Cleric/fvs SP is worth a lot more then the ~80 points of HP the mass cure would be healing. Again, this has exceptions, Tanks that are up against high damage opponents, and tanks that can be subjected to high damage spikes (see, horoth's, disintegrate) should be kept high, if not topped off at all times (unless you know the tank can take a disintegrate to the face with a failed save at whatever hp he is, and still have hp to spare for 1 or 2 melee pokes from horoth).

4) Healing spells don't use DC's on Allied targets, they either fail to affect them completely (see, pale masters and undead forms, and constructs), deal damage (see, pale master skeleton summons, and summon undead), or have their full effect, which is amplified by healing amp (see, everyone else).

[PurdueDave]

If are main tank then hitting you with heal is perfectly reasonable, mixing in mass cures to keep the main DPS up as well. Using mass cure is dictated by the incoming damage to the DPS folks, not the main tank. If the heals are empowered they'll hit for a little over 300 with minimal amplification on your part (say HF I and 10% amp).

For 1 - yes, but the idea is you get immunities to compensate (e.g. no greater restorations for you)
For 2 - good healers adapt rather than ***** and moan
For 3 - see #2
For 4 - amazing bull ****

[eulogy098]

Warforged healing penalties are rather sever considering the minimal benefits these days.

By end game, warforged are rather outclassed. Inherent immunities become irrelevant and the only notible difference between WF and fleshies is the -50% healing and the ability to be healed by Reconstruct and the amount of healing any Warforged characters will be getting from Arcanes is barley a fraction of a percent in the end.

When warforged were the highest melee dps possible (albet by only a tiny amount) it was easier to justify the enormous penalty, but nowadays Horcs have an even larger dps jump from wf then Wf did to the others back then.

It's pretty dang hard to justify the 50% penalty anymore.


Warforged healing penalty should be reduced to -25% instead. Or healer friend ranks should give 20% per rank. or cost less AP.

[protokon]

If you plan on tanking a raid boss, build yourself a nice dragontouched docent with healing amp on it (possibly all 3 tiers of healing amp). makes a nice thing to wear while beating on harry in the shroud too. There are a few nice alternatives depending on your setup of course (epic claw set gives you +2 exceptional con and 30% healing amp, so you could put 20% healing amp on a ring)

like others said, skip the third tier of healing amp enhancements - its not justifiable for the amount of APs.

If you put at least that much effort into healing amp, at that point it would be the cleric/fvs's fault they can't keep you alive, not yours.

[EatSmart]

The way I find it helpful to look at the WF HF lines is by converting them into their equivalents as a healing amp bonus:

Vanilla WF:

HF 1: 0.65/0.5 = 1.3, cumulative cost 2ap
HF 2: 0.70/0.5 = 1.4, cumulative cost 6ap
HF 3: 0.75/0.5 = 1.5, cumulative cost 12ap

Now compare that to class/racial improved recovery:

IR 1: 1.1, cumulative cost 2ap
IR 2: 1.2, cumulative cost 6ap
IR 3: 1.3, cumulative cost 12ap

You can see in that terms that HF is extremely potent relative to the other recovery enhancements. Due to the mechanics of healing amp, it is still better to buy the cheap teirs of other recovery enhancements before the next rank of HF. (ie 1.3x1.1 is better than 1.4, 1.4x1.2 is better than 1.5x1.1)

Considering how much benefit is frontloaded into healer's friend, there is very little argument not to take the first rank of healer's friend on a non-arcane.

The effective healing amp being provided by HF changes if you have a fleshmaker style effect equipped:
HF 1: 0.75/0.6 = 1.25, cumulative cost 2ap
HF 2: 0.80/0.6 = 1.33, cumulative cost 6ap
HF 3: 0.85/0.6 = 1.41, cumulative cost 12ap

My personal rule of thumb for a "happy to see hate tanking elite tod without an arcane helping out" level of healing amp on a WF is:
HF2 + 20% on tod ring + 30% claw set
or
HF1 + fleshmaker + 20% on tod ring + 30% claw gloves.
With more being gravy that will make me warm and fuzzy.

If the toon has high HPs, then being behind the middle of the pack by I'd guess roughly 10-15% isnt actually that noticable as crit heals will top up the stragglers. [Crit healing gear and enhancements add approximately 30% raw healing to the average healing numbers. Most of that is unreliable as its either overhealing, or not critting when its needed, or both. Most divines fall into the pattern of healing as if crits didnt exist, conciously or not, with crit heals evening out the spikes and catching the stragglers.] Being so far behind the pack that people need to regularly top up your hps with spot heals is a good indication of having too low healing amp.

This is all assuming raid situations that are at least a moderate level of challenge on resource management. For the entry level raids i'd say grab HF1, ideally HF2 too and have fun.

[elraido]

Warforged healing penalties are rather sever considering the minimal benefits these days.

By end game, warforged are rather outclassed. Inherent immunities become irrelevant and the only notible difference between WF and fleshies is the -50% healing and the ability to be healed by Reconstruct and the amount of healing any Warforged characters will be getting from Arcanes is barley a fraction of a percent in the end.

When warforged were the highest melee dps possible (albet by only a tiny amount) it was easier to justify the enormous penalty, but nowadays Horcs have an even larger dps jump from wf then Wf did to the others back then.

It's pretty dang hard to justify the 50% penalty anymore.


Warforged healing penalty should be reduced to -25% instead. Or healer friend ranks should give 20% per rank. or cost less AP.

One bonus WF have....DoD.

[Talon_Oakenleaf]

Warforged healing penalties are rather sever considering the minimal benefits these days.

By end game, warforged are rather outclassed. Inherent immunities become irrelevant and the only notible difference between WF and fleshies is the -50% healing and the ability to be healed by Reconstruct and the amount of healing any Warforged characters will be getting from Arcanes is barley a fraction of a percent in the end.

When warforged were the highest melee dps possible (albet by only a tiny amount) it was easier to justify the enormous penalty, but nowadays Horcs have an even larger dps jump from wf then Wf did to the others back then.

It's pretty dang hard to justify the 50% penalty anymore.


Warforged healing penalty should be reduced to -25% instead. Or healer friend ranks should give 20% per rank. or cost less AP.

I love watching HORC's get slowed, exhausted and held

Sweet bejeezers you have a pretty bad view on WF.

Warforged Healer's friend I: +15% base
Fleshmaker: +10% base add the +10 to will saves its awesome
levik's bracers: 20% heal amp
Jorasco ship buff: 10% stacking heal amp
=94% healing amp

add a 30% and your laughing

I have never had a cleric complain about healing my WF before.