Nerf SP pots in the new harder content

[Maitland]

You know..i hear all this talk about letting people die but then ihear how people drink their way to victory../shrug
If i am playing a healer type on a normal pug and i know the group cant handel the quest/raid..I will let it fail all the time..I will use bauble/scrolls/wands/bursts but i will not/refuse to drink my way to victory...
Some people might say,"but Bluntt,you coulda saved us and been a hero"..and i say i would rather die..does it teach the group anything?...probally not..probally will teach them that i cant play a healer and list me,and i am ok with that...but that would be the wrong lesson to get from this..

[Chai]

I'm right here, sport; if you want to point out where my dump-int horc rogue character is, feel free.

Doesnt matter. The end result of that complaining about having to "gimp our toons" just to build to get traps in the past made the end game easy enough where dump int rogues can get those traps. We clearly see how much people will talk about how they want a challenge, up until they get one.

[redspecter23]

There are numerous ways to go about solving the issue of unlimited pots if Turbine chooses to do so. They just have to get a bit inventive with it to make a "nerf" easier to swallow.

My personal favorite concept was to allow unlimited pots, but add in a penalty for each pot you drink within a certain timeframe (either timed or per shrine or per quest).

First pot, as normal
Second pot, slight imbalance in your magical energy. -1 to all stats
Third pot, you become a bit woozy with overloaded magic energy. additional stacking -4 to all stats (-5 total)
Fourth pot, you are downright drunk with magical energy. additional stacking -10 to all stats (-15 total)
Fifth pot +, you are supersaturated with magical energy. You have a 50% chance to implode, utterly destroying you and dealing 1000d6 damage to all friendly targets within range. You cannot be raised and are sent immediately to your bind point.

Of course the effects and when they occur could be modified slightly to fit certain difficulties. On normal you could be cleansed of the magical energies every 5 minutes. On hard it could clear only on rest and elite could be per dungeon. Even though this would technically be a nerf, it's so much fun to play with that it could be swallowed a bit more easily by the masses. So if you need an occasional pot here or there, no problem. You could drink one or two without much issue, but for the pot chuggers, it gets downright deadly to even attempt it, though you do have the choice to risk it.

[Angelus_dead]

Strategies like..."Hmmm...I'd better drink a pot right now just in case I need those SP later, and so my cooldown is gone by then". Making pre-emptive pot-drinking the safer strategy may well not decrease pot-drinking, but rather have the opposite effect.

Yes, that would be a true problem of the simplistic approach of simply tossing a 3-5 minute cooldown on mana potions.

However, a developer who is decent at math and programming can create a slightly more-complicated restriction that avoids that shortcoming. Two words: retroactive protating.

[Indoran]

I just think if people want a real "challenge" they shouldn't have brute-force SP-pot usage as an option.

then you don't do it... not all the ppl think the same. And as noted somewhere its a bad business move (what is what really matters to me)

[le_goat]

This old thing is bad, makes me mad people wont play like i do.







/sarcasm off

[SableShadow]

Doesnt matter. The end result of that complaining about having to "gimp our toons" just to build to get traps in the past made the end game easy enough where dump int rogues can get those traps.

Nonsense. If you were present for the debate (which you weren't, despite the posturing ... at least, I don't recall a single post from someone named "Chai" in those threads), you'd know that the complaint was a 16 base int drow, +4 tome, and all available (for the time) gear couldn't hit the search DCs without going Mechanic II.

You'd also recall all the comments relating to Search (and trap) mechanisms in general; there are parallels to the threads on AC. An "all or nothing" game mechanism is inherently difficult to balance.

At the same time that the introduction of PrEs for other classes narrowed the gap between raw SA and ... gah, why do I have to rebuild an argument for a game you apparently weren't even present for, years later?

We clearly see how much people will talk about how they want a challenge, up until they get one.

So please stop calling me out, and find some other favorite example of dumbing down the game. It's getting old.

Thanks in advance.

[Kabaon]

For me, I consider pots to be for the "Oh ****" moments. Other wise I go through content normally. Though I'm geared out, I have a bauble, torc and concord opp though, and I use the bauble often enough. When I am low on sp, there is either a shrine, or the quest is done.

This in no means effects anyone else, in spite of what people say. I figure the reason the devs made the fights longer is pretty much because we are overgeared for most of the content, not because of the forum posters calling for nerfs/challenge

[grodon9999]

If people WANT the challenge it's their choice not to chug pots. But you can't expect to have the option taken away from people.

Why not? other peoples "want of challenge" just got the boss's HP doubled. This actually addresses the real easy-button in the first place.

[Chai]

Nonsense. If you were present for the debate (which you weren't, despite the posturing ... at least, I don't recall a single post from someone named "Chai" in those threads), you'd know that the complaint was a 16 base int drow, +4 tome, and all available (for the time) gear couldn't hit the search DCs without going Mechanic II.

Thats right, and epic was supposed to be for the best of the best. The best of the best could get the traps. Everyone else couldnt. I had a mechanic that could hit those traps, with a plus 2 tome, most of the available gear, and all available buffs. I respeced to assassin once epics were changed so that dumped int rogues could hit the traps. Might as well - they eliminated any reason to be mechanic at that point.

You'd also recall all the comments relating to Search (and trap) mechanisms in general; there are parallels to the threads on AC.

At the same time that the introduction of PrEs for other classes narrowed the gap between raw SA and ... gah, why do I have to rebuild an argument for a game you apparently weren't even present for, years later?

Been around since ot 6. Took a hiatus before epics. Was there for generation one of epics, and all the posturing that went on then where people cried for new tough content that would challenge people who had geared toons sitting around for 18 months. When we got it, we all basked in the nice breeze which resulted from all the backpedaling....

So please stop calling me out, and find some other favorite example of dumbing down the game. It's getting old.

Thanks in advance.

Whats getting old is the waffling about how people think epics should be for the best of the best, and then when that happens, the backpedaling begins. Games too easy, now its too hard, now its too easy, now its too hard....I like maple syrup with my waffles. Whats your excuse?

What myself as well as some others are saying is "be careful what you wish for" - when it happens we will see what the reaction is about how difficult the game is. How do we know this will occur? We have seen it before, in many other forms.

[Angelus_dead]

What myself as well as some others are saying is "be careful what you wish for" - when it happens we will see what the reaction is about how difficult the game is. How do we know this will occur? We have seen it before, in many other forms.

You keep saying that, but it does not resemble the truth. You are apparently pretty convinced about some things that simply did not occur as you describe.

It is illogical to say that because one increase to difficulty is bad, that therefore every kind of difficulty is also bad.

[Chai]

Why not? other peoples "want of challenge" just got the boss's HP doubled. This actually addresses the real easy-button in the first place.

Now theres something I can agree with, because I dont equate challenge to more HP to beat down.

[Vellrad]

Not even close.

You can't buy SP items with real-money.

You cannot get NEARLY as much additional SP out of items than you can out of stacks of pots.

Decide what you meen- major mnemnotic enchantement, concentrated major mnemnotic enchancement, or both.

[Chai]

You keep saying that, but it does not resemble the truth. You are apparently pretty convinced about some things that simply did not occur as you describe.

It is illogical to say that because one increase to difficulty is bad, that therefore every kind of difficulty is also bad.

Hardly. thats not what I am saying at all.

What I am saying is I have seen people ask for harder content, then complain its too hard. Yes it did happen. If people are genuinely concerned about challenge then fine, get rid of SP pots or make them harder to use back to back without limit. Ima be right there when the complaints start rolling in grinning however.....

Personally Im more for a limit per quest or limit per shrine mechanic. Maybe associate it with difficulty, then incentivize running on harder difficulty by giving better rewards. People can guzzle their way through TOD normal knowing full well the group they are in is not elite capable.

[SableShadow]

Why not? other peoples "want of challenge" just got the boss's HP doubled. This actually addresses the real easy-button in the first place.

Address the root cause? Perish the thought ...

Thats right, and epic was supposed to be for the best of the best. The best of the best could get the traps. Everyone else couldnt.

Best of the best had jack to do about it. If you wanted to do traps, it didn't matter how well you played, how well you geared, or how much research you did; Mechanic II was *the* spec to go if you wanted to do traps. How deep you actually went depended on whether or not you had a GS int skills item.

Binary decisions:
Do I want to do traps? If yes, Mech II.
Do I have a GS skills item? If no, then crank int.

The absolute *worst* rogue builds were the ones that could do those traps (max int, max mechanic, mediocre gear)...it's so obvious to me that it boggles me you're tossing "best of the best" my way, particularly because I know you play a rogue (not just "have one").

Trap DCs have always been about accounting; what's "epic" or "best of the best" about picking a number off the forums?

Been around since ot 6. Took a hiatus before epics. Was there for generation one of epics, and all the posturing that went on then where people cried for new tough content that would challenge people who had geared toons sitting around for 18 months. When we got it, we all basked in the nice breeze which resulted from all the backpedaling....

I'm really not sure what you're talking about here ... we had eDesert with Gen One. eVoNs (Gen Two, since we're thinking about them this way) dropped with the trap bump.

We didn't stop running quests because we couldn't get the traps (well, eChains took a hit...) simply because you don't have to get most traps in most quests, you just work through them ...

Whats getting old is the waffling about how people think epics should be for the best of the best, and then when that happens, the backpedaling begins. Games too easy, now its too hard, now its too easy, now its too hard....I like maple syrup with my waffles. Whats your excuse?

Still waiting on you to linky my dumpstat horc.

Again, simple request: stop calling me out if you want to give a "dumb it down" example.

[Zaodon]

Yet again, people have selective memory.

New content is exciting, so people want to do it, and we live in a "NOW" society where people want things as soon as possible. This is a cultural thing, not related to video games.

Once people learn the new content and come up with strategies, the mana pot usage will fall back down again to 0 (or a few in emergencies).

DDO has this thing called "Hard" and "Elite" if you want more challenge.
DDO also has this thing called "Permadeath guilds" if you want even more challenge.
DDO also has this thing called "Naked (quest name here)" runs, if you want even more challenge.

Stop trying to force your "challenge" onto every other player who may:
1. Not WANT that much challenge.
2. Not be ABLE to handle that much challenge.

It should not be a requirement for every DDO player to be epic geared, with olympic-athlete-like twitch skills.

DDO should allow players with Korthos starter gear to complete level 20 raids. On Casual.
On normal, they would need level 20 random gear.
On hard, they would need level 20 shroud gear.
On elite, they would need epic gear.

But that was not said in the OP of this post. The OP was for UNIVERSAL NERFING of people's ability to play how they see fit to play. Not to get political in a gaming forum, but I am really getting sick and tired of people trying to force their views and preferences on others in this world. That goes against the idea of FREEDOM, which we all deserve.

You play YOUR way, I'll play MY way. Stop trying to nerf my way because you don't enjoy it.

[Angelus_dead]

But that was not said in the OP of this post. The OP was for UNIVERSAL NERFING of people's ability to play how they see fit to play. Not to get political in a gaming forum, but I am really getting sick and tired of people trying to force their views and preferences on others in this world. That goes against the idea of FREEDOM, which we all deserve.

You play YOUR way, I'll play MY way. Stop trying to nerf my way because you don't enjoy it.

If that's how you feel, then you really shouldn't be playing an online game whose rules are dictated by two or three professional designers employed by a faceless multinational conglomerate.

Those people can and will create limitations on what players can do. Those limitations are also known as "game rules", and inventing game rules is what a game designer does all day long.

If someone doesn't approve of the concept of a game designer, then how can he play a designed game?

[grodon9999]

You play YOUR way, I'll play MY way. Stop trying to nerf my way because you don't enjoy it.

No. The unlimted SP of over-powered casters is what got us in this current state of retardation. Instead of fixing ht issue Turbine just threw more boss HP at the problem. That is beyond stupid.

[Gleep_Wurp]

why do you want to control how other people play? really none of your bussiness. simple solution-dont pug.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I rarely drink them on my Cleric but occasionally stuff happens and I've power-healed a group that should have failed to victory because I drank my blue-bar back up. It's way too much of a "safety net" that can recover many disasters into victories.

if people wanting more "challenge" are applauding doubling boss HPs I'm curious to what their stance is on this.

its simple if you want a challenge dotn drink the pots ? ive never understood poeple that would force evryone to play the same way because they perchieve its how it should be ?

freedom of choice no? isnt that the way to go same for those bosses some people want to be made harder, many many suggestions have been giving to those very people claiming its to easy, maybe its to easy because of how u play, so change the way you play there no need to force evryone to play the same way is there