Chimera's Crown hp DOESN'T stack

[waterboytkd]

So, testing out Chimera's Crown on Lama. My friend has the upgraded version. I have the old school epic version. When he put it on with 3 dmarks, the extra 20 hp it gives are from Greater Elemental Energy, not some generic source. That means, Chimera's Crown does NOT stack with GS hp items.

GENASI: Is this WAI?

SS to come when I figure that out...

Sidenote: My non-upgrade Crown is actually giving me the SR 30 and the Greater Elemental Energy, too. HOWEVER, it does not have Chimera's Vitality as an ability. Weird, huh?

Oh, yeah, and the Crown, whether it's upgraded or not, loses Greater Elemental Energy when it's removed (assuming because it's no longer checking for our Dmarks if we're not wearing it).

Here's the new version, unequipped:


New version, equipped:


Old version, unequipped:


Old version, equipped:


Oh yeah. Notice my lack of some Dmark uses in the pics? I hadn't used any dmarks. Taking the helm off and on repeatedly drained all my mark uses...

[Aranel12]

lol and my chimera fang isn't working correctly either (one i started)

[DoNotFeedTheRocks]

I'm pretty sure bonuses of the same value and same type never stack.

[waterboytkd]

I'm pretty sure bonuses of the same value and same type never stack.

Correct. HOWEVER, Genasi never said it was going to be Greater Elemental Energy from the Chimera's Crown. He said +10 hp from one mark, +15 from two, and +20 from three. Granted, he could have meant Elemental Energy with those values, but that'd be pretty rude to not SAY they were Elemental Energy when he was talking about these upgrades a bit ago, as people have started farming in anticipation of these coming changes.

Also, the description on Chimera's Vitality calls them stacking hp, not Elemental Energy:

[Genasi]

Sorry for the lack of clarity on this: using the Elemental Energy effects on this item was indeed intended. The description on the item should definitely be clearer about the source. Also, the item is granting the Dragonmark benefits even before being upgraded because that functionality is actually independent of the Chimera's Vitality label, which is there just to communicate how it works. It's a side effect of how these features have been implemented. The Dragonmark benefits being removed when you take the item off is also intentional.

As I mentioned in the thread about the Epic Chimera's Fang, these items that change depending on your character's attributes are a bit complicated in their implementation, so PM me if you find any other apparent bugs with how they're working.

[bradleyforrest]

Sorry for the lack of clarity on this: using the Elemental Energy effects on this item was indeed intended. The description on the item should definitely be clearer about the source. Also, the item is granting the Dragonmark benefits even before being upgraded because that functionality is actually independent of the Chimera's Vitality label, which is there just to communicate how it works. It's a side effect of how these features have been implemented. The Dragonmark benefits being removed when you take the item off is also intentional.

As I mentioned in the thread about the Epic Chimera's Fang, these items that change depending on your character's attributes are a bit complicated in their implementation, so PM me if you find any other apparent bugs with how they're working.

This doesn't affect me at all, but people's expectations were set that this bonus would stack with everything. To unveil it now with the bonus not stacking with GS items is disingenuous and should be changed to a stacking untyped bonus.

[Kinerd]

+1 for the Chrono Trigger sig, but you should always put what the bonus actually is. Never use "stacking". You're just asking for trouble. Even if it stacks with everything now, you never know when someone will come along down the road and c/p it over to some new item.

[waterboytkd]

Sorry for the lack of clarity on this: using the Elemental Energy effects on this item was indeed intended. The description on the item should definitely be clearer about the source.

Hmmm...

No, sir. I don't like it.

Almost every character I know of uses a GS hp item. Making this crown use the same mechanic is, well, worthless. Makes me want to nerd rage. Also, trying to keep my cool here, but it's not necessarily the description on the item that should have been clearer, but what you told us you were going to do that should have been clearer. Mostly because, originally, this was going to give +10 hp per dmark, for +30 total with all 3 dmarks. Was that supposed to be using the Elemental Energy system? Because it wouldn't work.

But let me end by saying that this change doesn't make this item any more desirable than it was pre-upgrade. Most characters make GS hp items. And Spell Resistance 30 means almost nothing at end game, especially epics. The only way I could see this item staying desirable using Elemental Energies is if it instead worked like a GS hp item:

1 dmark gets you Elemental Energy (+10 hp)
2 dmarks gets you Improved Elemental Energy as well (+15 more hp)
3 dmarks gets you Greater Elemental Energy on top of the previous benefits (+20 more hp)
= for a total of +45 hp, just like a GS item. At least that way, this helm could consolidate a slot or something. Still, it'd be an epic item that just replaces a GS item, and the GS item might actually still be better...

In the end, I feel the only way to actually make this helm desirable is to make the hp gains not Elemental Energy, but some kind of unique stacking bonus. Or revamp it altogether. As it is now, it's just as bad as it was pre-U11.

[Silverhilt-2]

Oh yeah. Notice my lack of some Dmark uses in the pics? I hadn't used any dmarks. Taking the helm off and on repeatedly drained all my mark uses...

The Dragonmark benefits being removed when you take the item off is also intentional.

I dont think you are talking about the same thing here... Of course he will loose the benefits of an item when he isnt wearing it The thing he is referring to (which by the way has been bug reported and posted on these forums about since the introduction of Braza's Hat!) is, that if you equip/unequip/equip etc. etc. it continues to remove charges of whatever it is giving extra charges of.

Edit: Just saw these Alchemist's Pendant, which also "gives extra uses" of various abilities, so expect more bug reports in that regard... Unless I ofc am the one reading your post wrong. You didnt say that that is WAI did you?

Ilmer

[CoasterHops]

When seeing this item, you would think that those HP were meant to stack, unfortunately they obviously arent which means that realistically the item isn't going to be very deisrable for anyone who already has a min Lvl 11 HP greensteel item.

Its disappointing I guess as if those HP bonuses that were to be implemented dependent on dragonmarks stacked then I could have seen the helm fitting into quite a few builds and being worth wearing.

But with no stacking of the 20 HP then I just can't see too many trying to fit this into their builds when other options out there will likely be better.

[Rdonaccount]

Gotta say, i'm very disappointed with using elemental energy for the hp. Even just using superior false life would have been more beneficial, as not everyone with epic items would be able to slot sfl, but just about anyone would have a gs hp item. And its not like there are a whole lot of better options to stick on the third tier of gs anyway.

[Genasi]

The thing he is referring to (which by the way has been bug reported and posted on these forums about since the introduction of Braza's Hat!) is, that if you equip/unequip/equip etc. etc. it continues to remove charges of whatever it is giving extra charges of.

Actually, I was responding to his comment here:

Oh, yeah, and the Crown, whether it's upgraded or not, loses Greater Elemental Energy when it's removed (assuming because it's no longer checking for our Dmarks if we're not wearing it).

More importantly, though...

Mostly because, originally, this was going to give +10 hp per dmark, for +30 total with all 3 dmarks. Was that supposed to be using the Elemental Energy system? Because it wouldn't work.

My thinking here was simply that the range of 10/15/20 hit points (up to what would essentially be something equal to the Toughness effect, but stacking with it) was preferable, and because the Elemental Energy effects already existed, they seemed fair enough to use. But, re-analyzing it, this isn't just a high-level named quest item, which might reasonably seek to replicate Greensteel effects for those who haven't done a lot of raiding. It's an Epic item, with a much more involved acquisition process. Not only that, but it requires Dragonmarks, as well, a not-insignificant character investment. I had already had the thought process that it might provide slot consolidation for those who already had the Greensteel effects, but indeed that would only be applicable if this item stacked all three together at the top tier. I have to agree that in its current state, it's of little use to those who would be farming for it.

I think I'll go with what I was originally shooting for, a 10/15/20 hitpoint range, but this time we'll give it a unique bonus type that will stack with other hitpoint-granting sources currently in the game.

[Dilbon]

I actually expected this to be just a replacement to GS HP item with elemental energy. Of course I also expected the three tiers to stack.

[sirgog]

My thinking here was simply that the range of 10/15/20 hit points (up to what would essentially be something equal to the Toughness effect, but stacking with it) was preferable, and because the Elemental Energy effects already existed, they seemed fair enough to use. But, re-analyzing it, this isn't just a high-level named quest item, which might reasonably seek to replicate Greensteel effects for those who haven't done a lot of raiding. It's an Epic item, with a much more involved acquisition process. Not only that, but it requires Dragonmarks, as well, a not-insignificant character investment. I had already had the thought process that it might provide slot consolidation for those who already had the Greensteel effects, but indeed that would only be applicable if this item stacked all three together at the top tier. I have to agree that in its current state, it's of little use to those who would be farming for it.

I think I'll go with what I was originally shooting for, a 10/15/20 hitpoint range, but this time we'll give it a unique bonus type that will stack with other hitpoint-granting sources currently in the game.

This is, IMO, the way to go.

Defender builds typically have less HP than 0 AC tanks (no Madstone Rage, no Rage spell), and need to be able to survive some of the extreme burst damage bosses like Horoth throw around.

I threw together a build to see how a Chimera's Fang and Crown Defender would look - it's here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3976700 . 627 hp, or 649 if I sacrifice Superior Weapon Focus for a second Toughness.

Subtract the 20 from the Crown not stacking with a Shroud item and we are looking at 607 - very low for tanking a boss that throws 470-530 damage Disintegrates.

If the item goes live as it is on Lamannia, I'd drop it from the gear setup, and use Wisdom Yugoloth potions for the +4 Natural AC whenever no ranger is available.

[LeLoric]

Actually, I was responding to his comment here:

More importantly, though...


My thinking here was simply that the range of 10/15/20 hit points (up to what would essentially be something equal to the Toughness effect, but stacking with it) was preferable, and because the Elemental Energy effects already existed, they seemed fair enough to use. But, re-analyzing it, this isn't just a high-level named quest item, which might reasonably seek to replicate Greensteel effects for those who haven't done a lot of raiding. It's an Epic item, with a much more involved acquisition process. Not only that, but it requires Dragonmarks, as well, a not-insignificant character investment. I had already had the thought process that it might provide slot consolidation for those who already had the Greensteel effects, but indeed that would only be applicable if this item stacked all three together at the top tier. I have to agree that in its current state, it's of little use to those who would be farming for it.

I think I'll go with what I was originally shooting for, a 10/15/20 hitpoint range, but this time we'll give it a unique bonus type that will stack with other hitpoint-granting sources currently in the game.

I would prefer the stacking option as you have listed.

If you think the stacking hp is too much though you could have it give the 10+15+20 elemental bonus hp additively so that it works as a full 45 hp shroud item with all three dragon marks freeing up that shroud slot for other uses.

If you do the second however I still feel the item could use something whether the +6 nat armor that seal of earth has or maybe even just a second colorless slot.

Or better yet talk to whoever is in charge of dm's and have them make the dm's more worthwhile on their own without having to have epic gear justify their inclusion in a build.

[Dilbon]

If the hp is made to stack with green steel, it's a bit disappointing, because I wanted to get rid of my GS hp item. So I too would prefer 10+15+20 elemental energy.

[etelan]

It appears the crown change is retroactive? I hope it makes it on to live that way... that's another 40 epic tokens I don't have to re-farm.

[Darkrok]

If the hp is made to stack with green steel, it's a bit disappointing, because I wanted to get rid of my GS hp item. So I too would prefer 10+15+20 elemental energy.

Sounds like Gensai is open to an upgrade. The question is which one.

I think the answer is to have it as extra stacking hp's. If someone can only fit in 1 of the DM's then a 10 elemental hp is still not that useful as you probably already have a 10/15/20 GS item. Sure, for people w/ all 3 DM's both ideas are useful (get rid of a GS slot vs 20 stacking hp's). For people w/ 1 or 2 DM's the stacking hp's would be more useful than the elemental hp's.

[Dilbon]

Would it be too much to have both?

1 DM: 20 stacking hp + 10 elemental energy
2 DM: 15 elemental energy
3 DM: 20 elemental energy

Or:

1 DM: 5 stacking hp + 10 elemental energy
2 DM: 5 stacking hp + 15 elemental energy
3 DM: 10 stacking hp + 20 elemental energy

[Thrudh]

I prefer stacking. I farmed this item expecting stacking and as an AC buid I need the extra hps.