Chimera's Crown hp DOESN'T stack

[arjiwan]

Oh yeah. Notice my lack of some Dmark uses in the pics? I hadn't used any dmarks. Taking the helm off and on repeatedly drained all my mark uses...

The Dragonmark benefits being removed when you take the item off is also intentional.

The thing he is referring to (which by the way has been bug reported and posted on these forums about since the introduction of Braza's Hat!) is, that if you equip/unequip/equip etc. etc. it continues to remove charges of whatever it is giving extra charges of.

Actually, I was responding to his comment here:

oh, yeah, and the Crown, whether it's upgraded or not, loses Greater Elemental Energy when it's removed (assuming because it's no longer checking for our Dmarks if we're not wearing it).

Hi Genasi,

So is the removing of the charges is not intentional?

Cheers.

[waterboytkd]

My thinking here was simply that the range of 10/15/20 hit points (up to what would essentially be something equal to the Toughness effect, but stacking with it) was preferable, and because the Elemental Energy effects already existed, they seemed fair enough to use. But, re-analyzing it, this isn't just a high-level named quest item, which might reasonably seek to replicate Greensteel effects for those who haven't done a lot of raiding. It's an Epic item, with a much more involved acquisition process. Not only that, but it requires Dragonmarks, as well, a not-insignificant character investment. I had already had the thought process that it might provide slot consolidation for those who already had the Greensteel effects, but indeed that would only be applicable if this item stacked all three together at the top tier. I have to agree that in its current state, it's of little use to those who would be farming for it.

I think I'll go with what I was originally shooting for, a 10/15/20 hitpoint range, but this time we'll give it a unique bonus type that will stack with other hitpoint-granting sources currently in the game.

Thank you, Genasi. With that, this item is still worth getting for some toons, as 20 hp is a nice boost.

Someone did mention doing both the full GS hp chain (10+15+20) and the unique 20 (5+5+10), but that seems greedy, though the slot consolidation would make this item even tastier. Of course, it would just be tastier to those with 3 dragonmarks (and not 0-2, because without the full 3, you'd still be better off with a GS hp item)...

BUT, changing it to a unique bonus type is much appreciated. Thank you again, Genasi.

[Hollowgolem]

Actually, I was responding to his comment here:

More importantly, though...


My thinking here was simply that the range of 10/15/20 hit points (up to what would essentially be something equal to the Toughness effect, but stacking with it) was preferable, and because the Elemental Energy effects already existed, they seemed fair enough to use. But, re-analyzing it, this isn't just a high-level named quest item, which might reasonably seek to replicate Greensteel effects for those who haven't done a lot of raiding. It's an Epic item, with a much more involved acquisition process. Not only that, but it requires Dragonmarks, as well, a not-insignificant character investment. I had already had the thought process that it might provide slot consolidation for those who already had the Greensteel effects, but indeed that would only be applicable if this item stacked all three together at the top tier. I have to agree that in its current state, it's of little use to those who would be farming for it.

I think I'll go with what I was originally shooting for, a 10/15/20 hitpoint range, but this time we'll give it a unique bonus type that will stack with other hitpoint-granting sources currently in the game.

While I agree with your reasoning, and am grateful you're responding so candidly to feedback, keep in mind that the only reason this should be -that much- better than greensteel is that it involves not only making an epic item, but also taking 3 specific feats.

For less difficult-to-make epic items, mimicing greensteel items (and not stacking with them) should be fine.

[Skavenaps]

Yep thanks for the "fix" Genasi.

AC tanks (paladins and fighters) need more love on the HP side... everything counts.

[xandariant]

I think I'll go with what I was originally shooting for, a 10/15/20 hitpoint range, but this time we'll give it a unique bonus type that will stack with other hitpoint-granting sources currently in the game.

I would think you can leave it on Elemental HP, but make it like 15/25/30, so tank could get 30 HP on 3rd dragonmak and It would stack 30. Those extra 10HP wouldn't hurt you, I think.

[waterboytkd]

I would think you can leave it on Elemental HP, but make it like 15/25/30, so tank could get 30 HP on 3rd dragonmak and It would stack 30. Those extra 10HP wouldn't hurt you, I think.

I get the feeling this doesn't work because, if I had to guess, I would say Genasi went with the Elemental Energy "type" because it already existed. The values he wanted already existed as Elemental Energies (Normal, Improved, Greater). If he did 15/25/30 as some kind of Elemental Energy, he would have to invent new Elemental Energy types (Major? Superior?) for the 25 and 30, which would be just as much work (again, I'm guessing) as making it 10/15/20 chimera vitality hit points, or whatever they get called.

Also, it's worth noting that by going with a unique type hp bonus, this item is giving bonus hp even if you have 1 mark. If it went with some kind of tiering of Elemental Energy, even if it went beyond Greater Elemental Energy, someone with 1 mark probably wouldn't be benefiting from the hp bonus, because it would be of the same value as a GS item. The only way to avoid that would to start the sequence at 25, which is really high, and a huge bonus for 1 dmark and this item.

The 10/15/20 unique hp is a bit more balanced, and will work the way people want it to (except for those very few out there that would prefer this item replace their GS hp item, but I would put money that they are an extreme minority).

[Forzah]

What's so bad about it not stacking with greensteel? It frees up a full inventory slot (from not having to wear GS anymore) while being a best in slot AC item, giving up a lot more possibilities if you have the right kind of build. I think it's a very nice item now.

[Skavenaps]

What's so bad about it not stacking with greensteel? It frees up a full inventory slot (from not having to wear GS anymore) while being a best in slot AC item, giving up a lot more possibilities if you have the right kind of build. I think it's a very nice item now.

the problem is the lack of hp sources. if dont stack with the gs, tanks just lose a bit of potencial.

[Thrudh]

What's so bad about it not stacking with greensteel? It frees up a full inventory slot (from not having to wear GS anymore) while being a best in slot AC item, giving up a lot more possibilities if you have the right kind of build. I think it's a very nice item now.

Why would you not want to wear GS anymore?

Your GS hp item could also have +5 protection and Heavy Fort (Min II) or +6 Wisdom and Con Opp, or any number of nice guard effects.

If this crown was just another GS hp item, you'd have to compare those extra effects to +5 Natural Armor, 30 Spell Resistance, and extra dragonmark uses...

Since +5 Natural Armor can be cast by a ranger, or you can get +4 Natural Armor from a Yugo pot... that part isn't that great...

It's not really an level 20 epic item with GS hps.... It's pretty equivalent to a crafted GS item at that point...

It's a very niche item.... It really only appeals to AC characters with Dragonmarks... Really, now many of us are those?

I'd definitely prefer the stacking hps please. Those 3 dragonmarks could be three toughness feats instead. Us AC tanks with dragonmarks can definitely use some more hps.

[Cyr]

I think I'll go with what I was originally shooting for, a 10/15/20 hitpoint range, but this time we'll give it a unique bonus type that will stack with other hitpoint-granting sources currently in the game.

Much better choice.

A general note is that items that have powers that do not stack with commonly equiped GS items (or other items period) bascially have very little benefit from those powers. Really unless those powers are fully replicated (ie full GS hp powers on one item) those powers are next to useless on the item.

The point has long since passed where simply mixing and matching existing abilities on items for different itemization strategies was an effective manner of making new items.

New items need new abilities that stack with existing abilities in new and interesting ways. The alchemical bonus on those bracers is exactly the type of thing I am talking about here...that item compares favorable to most epic items without the need for extra feats and what not and I can not imagine it will be anywhere near as difficult to make then the chimera hat.

[grodon9999]

If it only had natural Armor 6 and Blue Slot . . .

[Xyfiel]

If it only had natural Armor 6 and Blue Slot . . .

and each slot allowed you to put ioun stones in them!

[waterboytkd]

What's so bad about it not stacking with greensteel? It frees up a full inventory slot (from not having to wear GS anymore) while being a best in slot AC item, giving up a lot more possibilities if you have the right kind of build. I think it's a very nice item now.

But it doesn't free up the inventory slot. As it was now, with Greater Elemental Energy, you were only getting ONE tier of a gs hp item, not all 3. It in no way replaced a GS hp item, which would give 25 more hp than the Chimera's Crown. Also, the final Aspect benefits of a GS item are all as desirable, if not more desirable, than what the Crown is giving. IF this did GEE, it would be flat out worse than a GS item.

If it only had natural Armor 6 and Blue Slot . . .

and each slot allowed you to put ioun stones in them!

I do believe it's rude to look a gift horse in the mouth. Genasi is fixing this so it isn't worse than GS, so yay!

BUT, that said, Junk has a point. Break down the item, assuming you also have 3 dmarks. First, it's giving Nat Armor +5. That bonus itself, not so epic. Any end game ranger can give it to you for 15 sp. However, it is a hard bonus to actually find on items, so its rarity is the only thing really "epic" about it.

Second, the SR in the 25-30 range. I know from experience that that is just about useless in epics. I mean, even though he did increase the SR from 25 to 30 with dmarks, it still means that mobs are only gonna biff their SR check on a 1. This bonus is even eclipsed if you happen to have a Clr/FvS in your party with mass Spell Resistance (they give a 32...)

Last, due to dmarks, you gain 20 stacking hp (I'm assuming the change Genasi said), which is actually very cool, and 1 extra greater mark and 3 extra lesser mark uses. The latter is probably good, assuming you took dmarks because you wanted to use them, not just for this helm, or the Fang. Good, but not really epic good. More like level 18 good.

And we get two slots, a yellow and a colorless. Colorless slots for the second slot is always nice. Yellow slot is meh, because if you got any others, it tends to just turn into a colorless one, as the only really worthwhile yellow augment is GFL.

All that said, we really get a lot of meh to okay abilities, with one of them being pretty rare (+5 nat armor), and one of them being genuinely good (+20 stacking hp). If Genasi is okay with the item really only being desirable for an extra 20 hp and some AC (toons with 3 dmarks than can care about AC? very rare breed), then that's what we got. If he would like expand the item's desirable a little, then Junk's suggestion is a pretty good one. +6 Nat Armor is a truly epic bonus (only epic items give it). Also, a blue slot is a very useful slot. But, considering that this isn't a piece of armor using the game definition, perhaps a green slot would be more appropriate (replacing the yellow slot, leaving the colorless slot where it is). Nat Armor +6 and a Green slot would make this a quite a desirable item for any toon that cared about AC, and just that much saucier for a toon that cared about AC and had dmarks.

I did have some ideas for ways to also make the item more desirable using the dmark progression, but I realized that's not really helpful, as it just makes the item more desirable to those with dmarks. I do think making this item slightly more desirable to non-dmark toons is a smart move. I mean, Genasi, isn't that why Disintegrate got moved out of the final tier for Chimera's Fang and put into the "base" epic item? To make the item worth getting for some non-dmark toons?

[baletraeger]

Any update to the crown? Will it be stacking HP?

[Genasi]

Any update to the crown? Will it be stacking HP?

Yes, the current version has a new, unique source at each tier- "Energy of the Chimera" I, II, and III. They grant 10, 15, and 20 hitpoints respectively. Like Elemental Energy, each one will stack with anything but itself, although you only get one at each tier so there is no opportunity to stack them with each other at present. Perhaps future items will see use of these effects as well and it will become possible to have more than one tier of "Energy of the Chimera" at the same time.

[Thrudh]

Yes, the current version has a new, unique source at each tier- "Energy of the Chimera" I, II, and III. They grant 10, 15, and 20 hitpoints respectively. Like Elemental Energy, each one will stack with anything but itself, although you only get one at each tier so there is no opportunity to stack them with each other at present. Perhaps future items will see use of these effects as well and it will become possible to have more than one tier of "Energy of the Chimera" at the same time.

Thanks Genasi.... It's a very solid item for us AC dragon-marked fools (how many of us can there be?!)

My main has been a AC halfling with the 3 healing dragonmarks for 4 years now.... I'm super-excited for this item.... I can definitely use the hit points bonus! With the changes to Stalwart Defender, I think I'm ready to tank Horoth now!

Thanks for listening!

[NytCrawlr]

Excellent! Thanks Genasi and great work!

Yes, the current version has a new, unique source at each tier- "Energy of the Chimera" I, II, and III. They grant 10, 15, and 20 hitpoints respectively. Like Elemental Energy, each one will stack with anything but itself, although you only get one at each tier so there is no opportunity to stack them with each other at present. Perhaps future items will see use of these effects as well and it will become possible to have more than one tier of "Energy of the Chimera" at the same time.

[xandariant]

Yes, the current version has a new, unique source at each tier- "Energy of the Chimera" I, II, and III. They grant 10, 15, and 20 hitpoints respectively. Like Elemental Energy, each one will stack with anything but itself, although you only get one at each tier so there is no opportunity to stack them with each other at present. Perhaps future items will see use of these effects as well and it will become possible to have more than one tier of "Energy of the Chimera" at the same time.

Thanks!
Great work!

I yet still think we could get some sort of bonus for epic set (maybe little bonus for non-epic set like Abishai).
It might be a good place to add other "Energy of the Chimera" that will stack with the helmets energy, or maybe something else. I kinda think that making epic tank set would be great!

My proposition:
Greater Energy of the Chimera
1 dragon mark = 0
2 dragon marks = 10 chimera energy hp
3 dragon marks = 10+15 chimera energy hp

I know it would be a lot but increasing bosses dmg and adding disintegration in Reavers Fate makes you want to have more HP so you wont die easily on lag or weak healer.

BTW I love the changes what add 25/50/75% of thread to fighter/paladin tank prestige.
Great work on that too!
Now tanks can come back and instead of turtling, we will be active members of party .

[Defrag2k]

I am new to epic items, I have just completed my epic Chimera's Crown and GR'd to get the three dragonmarks. I have noticed that I gain +20 hp from Energy of the Chimera III, but I am not gaining the +45hp from the Chimera's Vitality. When I put on my GS +45hp, I gain +65hp total. I was to understand that I would get the +45 from GS as well as +45 from having all three dragonmarks and an extra +20 from Energy of Chimera III for a total of +110hp. I am only getting +65... is this correct or just a bug that needs to be worked on?

Also... I am not sure the incite on the epic Chimera's Fang is working correctly. Even after a successful Intimidate, while Paladin Divine Righteousness is active, melee steals aggro from me while tanking.

Any education you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Thelanis...Fawcks (18paladin/2fighter)

[wax_on_wax_off]

I am new to epic items, I have just completed my epic Chimera's Crown and GR'd to get the three dragonmarks. I have noticed that I gain +20 hp from Energy of the Chimera III, but I am not gaining the +45hp from the Chimera's Vitality. When I put on my GS +45hp, I gain +65hp total. I was to understand that I would get the +45 from GS as well as +45 from having all three dragonmarks and an extra +20 from Energy of Chimera III for a total of +110hp. I am only getting +65... is this correct or just a bug that needs to be worked on?

Also... I am not sure the incite on the epic Chimera's Fang is working correctly. Even after a successful Intimidate, while Paladin Divine Righteousness is active, melee steals aggro from me while tanking.

Any education you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Thelanis...Fawcks (18paladin/2fighter)

Would need a little more information. Are you attacking? What other gear do you have? What gear did the character who stole aggro have? Did you have a shield equipped?