Bravery Bonus For All

[Mercules]

I see what you did there .

Still irrelevant because the char-swap process probably kills your exp/min ratio, especially considering how often you'd have to restart the client given the char swap memory leak (angry face).

It's less true for the higher-level, longer quests, but most TR-path quests are completed in 10 min or less. Add 30-60 seconds for a char swap and the VIP still wins the xp/min game by ~10%.

-Kernal

Oh I agree, but Turbine claims VIP is their top of the line account option.

Our main difference is that I see "less time" as being convenient and you see it as more powerful. Since I am playing a game to kill idle time and be entertained I am just as entertained for the hour if I gain 1 level or 2. See my point? I like not having to do Normal-Hard-Elite and just skipping to Elite for some quests. Before it was so I could go Hard-Elite. It got upgraded and that really made me value the VIP account.

I get bored running the same quest over and over and n-n-n-h-e will not be done on any but my favorite quests or with a big gap in the running. Often it is -e- and that is it.

[kernal42]

We all did and do. Some of us chose the plan that gave us access to elite open. Some did not. Opportunity was the same.

In the interest of us bickering less, I should point out that this statement is wonderful.

Both of us had the same options presented to us, and we made different choices. You probably recognize that I get much out of the game by paying less; I recognize you get more out of the game, including (and this grows in significance) perks like the elite open.

I do not want to take away the elite-open perk from you. Or, if it is taken away, I feel it should be replaced by a perk that is equal or greater.

On the other hand, I want to take advantage of the Bravery bonus exp also. Considering that I solo often when levelling, and those that I do group with are usually Premium also, I won't be able to.

If Turbine wants to brand the Bravery bonus as a VIP-only perk, fine. That's an annoying decision, but it's honest. Even more annoying is releasing the perk as VIP-only under the umbrella of the elite-open perk.

-Kernal

[kernal42]

Our main difference is that I see "less time" as being convenient and you see it as more powerful. Since I am playing a game to kill idle time and be entertained I am just as entertained for the hour if I gain 1 level or 2. See my point? I like not having to do Normal-Hard-Elite and just skipping to Elite for some quests. Before it was so I could go Hard-Elite. It got upgraded and that really made me value the VIP account.

I get bored running the same quest over and over and n-n-n-h-e will not be done on any but my favorite quests or with a big gap in the running. Often it is -e- and that is it.

I feel the same way for the most part. There are very few quests I run repeatedly, and I'd like even more to be able to open elite immediately (though not enough to go VIP).

Unfortunately, I don't like the level range from 6-13 very much, and would like to have it done as fast as possible. I'm particularly annoyed at the exp-farming idea because my TR is currently at level 6 .

At the same time, making progress is fun. Making faster progress, therefore, is more fun .

-Kernal

[Jandric]

We all should have the same opportunities and I was never asking for a handout. Only for a little bonus incentive as well for my hard earned money. Why is your money worth more than mine? What makes you all so special? You keep asking that about me. So how is it different?

There is a big difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcomes. You have the opportunity to go VIP and get everything that you're asking for- that's equality of opportunity. Unless you tried to subscribe and Turbine refused because they don't like guys with handles that start with the letter "M", you have no lack of opportunity- you simply want the perk of having an elite open without purchasing the product that it is offered under.

[kernal42]

You misread what I wrote saying I was insulting people when I never did such a thing. Not so funny when tables are turned is it?

On the contrary! It's even funnier because it shows you're not reading your own posts either .

any rational person can agree to it.

Your statement translates to:
If the person is Rational, then they can agree to your suggestion.

This statement is equivalent to:
If the person cannot agree with your suggestion, they are irrational.

Every poster who has seen this thread so far has been unable to agree with your suggestion; therefore they must all be irrational (myself included!).

-Kernal

[moops]

This is ridiculous.

Taking full advantage of the Bravery system is something like a +10% exp gain. Brand new players aren't likely to be able to do this; probably they'll get more like a +5% exp gain, if that. That makes them ~95% as experienced as first-lifers are now.

Furthermore, your implication that F2P players are dumber than ViPs is absurd.

-Kernal

I never said dumber.
It is far too easy to get to lvl 20 on a non TR as it is, and we see plenty people end game who aren't properly geared. I lead raids/quests full of new people all the time and try to teach the game as best as I can--I don't myddo I don't ask people to link weapons--I do end up with people who just aren't prepared, and many of them get very frustrated--this is a 2 way street--as a leader I'm going to get frustrated that I have more people like this in my groups thus making things harder for me to keep smooth, and the newest players are going to be frustrated that they can't keep up. I am not even the zergiest of zergers, and I have new people leave my groups.

One has to think of the Bravery bonus, stacked on top of the 80% first time elite xp. 5 or 10% may not seem like alot to a TR but to a non TR it's quite a bit.

[Monkey_Archer]

Well you just shot yourself in the foot with that one. Premiums that purchase all content pay more than VIPs that only pay for the sub which will have to be active for anywhere between 1.5 years and 2.5 years. a little outdated but gives the jist off it:

"As you can see from the Grand Total charts if you’re happy with slots 1-4 you’ll be looking at a total of $218.32, which is about equivalent to 1.5 years of VIP subscription. And if you want slots 5-10 you are looking at a total of $320.02, or 2.2 years of VIP subscription."

cited from this web page:
http://furlugedepot.com/2009/09/15/t...-free-to-play/

This is not taking into account the premiums also buy xp pots, cakes, armor, hair dye, and etc.

This just takes into account the bare minimums alone. So therefore, they should get more than your VIP sub gets you.

You are right, they should.

I just pulled up the DDO store to add up everything... this is what i got:

14'420 All adventure packs
3570 Character Slots x6
3785 Horc/Helf/WF/Monk
1495 Shared bank
-------
23'270 ... which is roughly $233 using the best points deal available. (not counting minor sales that might save you a few $)

VIPs pay $5 a month +$5 in points, using the best deal available. (not counting all the bonus point months)

So for a premium player to get everything VIP gets (minus the much deserved perks of course ) they have to pay the equivalent of 47 months worth of fees. VIPs pay $480 to subscribe for 4 years, while premium players pay $233 for content + $240 for points. Going premium with all content and without VIP perks is basically a 4 year commitment to the game...

/signed to the OP. Any premium player commintting 4 years to DDO should be rewarded with all the perks of VIP, if not even more then that.

[kernal42]

I never said dumber.

You wrote that we'd see more unprepared characters at cap if the Bravery system went F2P. The correct statement would be that we'd see more unprepared characters at cap if the Bravery system went live. That you specified F2P is a direct suggestion that the F2P players need more time to figure out the game than the VIP/Premium ones. I took the liberty of rephrasing that as "they're dumber."

In any case, your statement was wholly unjustified.

One has to think of the Bravery bonus, stacked on top of the 80% first time elite xp. 5 or 10% may not seem like alot to a TR but to a non TR it's quite a bit.

I really don't think it makes a difference either way. Sure, probably people will be slightly worse at the roles and have slightly worse gear, but I really don't think it'll even be noticable.

-Kernal

[Mercules]

In the interest of us bickering less, I should point out that this statement is wonderful.

Both of us had the same options presented to us, and we made different choices. You probably recognize that I get much out of the game by paying less; I recognize you get more out of the game, including (and this grows in significance) perks like the elite open.

I do not want to take away the elite-open perk from you. Or, if it is taken away, I feel it should be replaced by a perk that is equal or greater.

On the other hand, I want to take advantage of the Bravery bonus exp also. Considering that I solo often when levelling, and those that I do group with are usually Premium also, I won't be able to.

If Turbine wants to brand the Bravery bonus as a VIP-only perk, fine. That's an annoying decision, but it's honest. Even more annoying is releasing the perk as VIP-only under the umbrella of the elite-open perk.

-Kernal

From the MadFloyd comments I have a feeling it was oversight and the mechanic will change drastically. As stated it was not a VIP perk to get more XP, but something meant to help out when TRing. It is possible it will simply become a TR mechanic, but if so that will have it's own issues when running with non-TRs. That would stink worse.

It makes sense as your first time through you might not have the twink gear, like greensteel, to run everything on Elite right off the bat. First TR you tend to have things like that to help out and other twink boosts. By the second TR you are often itching to get capped at level 10 to get your level 11 gear and again to get your level 12, so on and so forth, ToD rings.. and capped.

[ckorik]

The Bravery change would effectively allow a VIP an extra +10% exp boost when levelling. This boost is only available to Premium/F2P if they mooch off a VIP.

That's an option - or:

* buy unlocks from the store
* create an entirely free 2nd account as an elite unlocker - which still lets you solo.

Making it inconvenient to open elite for f2p solo is not really a game breaker. The unlocks are in the store - the are kind of pricey - but most things Turbine sells that are not permanent or account wide are.

I have no problem with them selling an elite unlocker - personally I'd put it as an account wide elite unlocker - it lasts one RL month. Lets say the cost is... 1200 TP per purchase...

[kernal42]

I have no problem with them selling an elite unlocker - personally I'd put it as an account wide elite unlocker - it lasts one RL month. Lets say the cost is... 1200 TP per purchase...

1200 TP is too much; by the best point deal that's $8.70 - basically the same as going VIP for the month, but missing out on the other bonuses. I could see that as one potential solution, though.

-Kernal

[Mercules]

Going premium with all content and without VIP perks is basically a 4 year commitment to the game...

Which would be a valid point if most Premium didn't pick and choose making it in reality much less expensive. How many of you bought Three Barrel Cove, Restless Isles, and Threnal? Did you buy the full 10 Character slots? Did you really buy HOrc, HElf, and WF? Did you purchase Monk?

[ckorik]

I just pulled up the DDO store to add up everything... this is what i got:

14'420 All adventure packs
3570 Character Slots x6
3785 Horc/Helf/WF/Monk
1495 Shared bank
-------
23'270 ... which is roughly $233 using the best points deal available. (not counting minor sales that might save you a few $)

.

Best TP deal = 6900 points for 49.99

All options in the store can be bought at 50% off if you are patient.

So using the same kind of math you are using:

23270/2 = 11635 points needed to buy "everything" at 50% off sales.

6900+6900 = 13800 points giving you the entire game with 2165 points left over.

So for 100 dollars (less than 12 months sub at 10 dollars a month VIP) you can own the game - assuming you are patient.

That doesn't even count the free TP you get for leveling - or the fact that people can and do grind hundreds of points using the '100 favor run'

[Monkey_Archer]

Best TP deal = 6900 points for 49.99

All options in the store can be bought at 50% off if you are patient.

The 6900 for 49.99 is not available atm.... and my pricing already includes a few sales that are going on right now.

Waiting for 50% sales means you could be waiting for years... If a premium player is willing to wait to play only when a points deal is on, and only when packs are 50% off a VIP could easily just subscribe during the 1000 pt bonus months and essentially play for free

Anyone this patient for savings would be better suited to being purely F2P and grinding favor...

So for 100 dollars (less than 12 months sub at 10 dollars a month VIP) you can own the game - assuming you are patient.

Even if that were possible, that premium player would be stuck with an incomplete game for years waiting for sales, and is still paying the equivalent of nearly 2 years of subscriptions fees counting points.

That doesn't even count the free TP you get for leveling - or the fact that people can and do grind hundreds of points using the '100 favor run'

That argument is invalid because VIPs are not excluded from favor grinding. Points have the same monetary value regardless of how you spend them or how they are earned.

[muny21]

Best TP deal = 6900 points for 49.99

All options in the store can be bought at 50% off if you are patient.

So using the same kind of math you are using:

23270/2 = 11635 points needed to buy "everything" at 50% off sales.

6900+6900 = 13800 points giving you the entire game with 2165 points left over.

So for 100 dollars (less than 12 months sub at 10 dollars a month VIP) you can own the game - assuming you are patient.

That doesn't even count the free TP you get for leveling - or the fact that people can and do grind hundreds of points using the '100 favor run'

You are quoting the absolute best pricing ever assuming all things will be 50% off at some point. That is ridiculous and you need to wake up from fairy land. No one is getting the whole game that cheap. Well maybe some people that favor grind the game into the ground but hell if they do they. They deserve VIP perks as well. If you can stand to favor grind this game completely free without ever spending a penny you are insane.

But I guess I have spent too much time on here and it is time to go kill some dragons. Enjoy the thread and keep bashing each other. Do not know how I got sucked in but I did. Will not happen again.

[ckorik]

You are quoting the absolute best pricing ever assuming all things will be 50% off at some point. .

Assuming someone would use the worst pricing on points and not take advantage of sales is just as silly. As I said in my point using the same kind of math.

[muny21]

Assuming someone would use the worst pricing on points and not take advantage of sales is just as silly. As I said in my point using the same kind of math.

One final thought. The price you paid for the packs should not even be an issue. You buy all you the packs you unlock all difficulties. Not all premiums will buy all the packs for that perk. Some will.

Not all VIPs care so much about elite unlock some do. The fact of the matter is that it hurts no ones gameplay, money spent or sub choice if they give a bonus to owning all packs.

That would actually help them by improving sales on packs no one buys or runs. It is sort of a win win.

[Bozone]

Which would be a valid point if most Premium didn't pick and choose making it in reality much less expensive. How many of you bought Three Barrel Cove, Restless Isles, and Threnal? Did you buy the full 10 Character slots? Did you really buy HOrc, HElf, and WF? Did you purchase Monk?

Yeah, I've bought all but update 10. I don't have a character at those levels currently, and haven't been in a group that wanted to give it a go yet. I'll probably buy it when my next character hits those levels or it goes on sale. I've only got 9 character slots, not 10. And I haven't bought WF or monk yet.

Unfortunately, I haven't set foot in a few of the adventure packs I've bought, as I levelled past them before I ever found a group for them The packs I've never been in (and a few others) were bought because they were 50% off and I want to see new areas (eventually).

But I haven't spent anywhere close to $480. I've paid about the same amount as if I'd subscribed the entire time since starting, but every month that goes by will probably see me saving money vs. subscribing. I will probably not buy nearly as many points in the future as I have in the past since I have basically all of the content and I don't buy lots of consumables.

I would guess that's more typical of premiums than those who spend more than VIP's (and base that calculation on the assumption that VIP's don't buy additional tp's). And certainly there are lots of premiums who don't spend nearly that much but simply buy their favorite packs and a few other races/classes/shared bank (and maybe did favor grinding for half of that).

On the other hand, I suspect that there is a significant proportion of VIP's who don't spend much on additional tp's.
It's unfortunate that the discussion on the xp bonus is lost in the noise of who spent more money, who should have what perc rather than the merits of the xp bonus and who should have access to it.

[Sleepsalot]

One last time here..
There is no way that F2P or Perm should get any Perks that VIP has any one thinking so is Fooling them selves.
Not all F2P or Prem get all Packs.
The ones that do Good for you.
And this should not even be a Issue..
The Bravery is for those that TR which is Bogus no one tells them to TR.
Why should they get better then the Average player??
They shouldn't at all.
It is Turbines way to stop TR's from Crying that they need "X" amount of XP per min.
Does nothing for any one else.
The average player VIP or any other is getting nothing.
So the debate is useless.