Bravery Bonus For All

[IamSooty]

Your being quite disingenuous here. THere is a lot more involved in business than just a one-time lump sum payment.choice Cost of acquisition of customer, customer retention, long term sells, marketing channels. Successful businesses would rather have a regular cash-flow than ride the lump-sum roller coaster and having to constantly acquire new customers for one time purchases.

The basic sub rate is $15/mo paid monthly, The discount rate is $29.97/ every 3 months, paid in advance.The longer sub discounts are higher. And you have that person on the hook for the next 1/3/6/12 months to upsale too, with a reason to look in the store to spend their 'free' tp. It costs less to keep a customer than acquire a new one. Its been stated time and time again by Premiums that they 'will never give Turbine' another dime. Obviously subscribers don't share this opinion by definition.

So not really. VIP's provide ongoing income, plus upsale income. Provide an existing customer base to sell/resell too. Rather than trying to grab a new F2P player/recalcitrant premium and get them to make a variable one time purchase. (Saying we have 20,000 existing subscribers to pay the bills with is much better propositions than saying we only have to hustle 50,000 F2P/Premium players this year to pay the bills.)

so /notsigned

Okay, this helps me with my earlier question, but leads to further ones:

Isn't the business model still more complicated than what you've already laid out? (Not saying that you neglected anything, but just that it is an incomplete picture still.) Is it not also in the interest of the business for it to let the other payment models be viable, and for f2p to still be attractive gaming option, lest it leaves those players feeling like they are being heavily disadvantaged, making them dissatisfied, and therefore damaging the game in a different way?

Is discussing business models something that is even meaningful? I have only just started to participate in these forums (as anyone should be able to tell), but I can already imagine any form of "features" applying unequally, even only marginally, to players utilizing different payment models will resurrect this the very same debate and sthe same viewpoints. But the bottomline still stands - whether a business model works or doesn't, whether it will or will not, is not something that the regular forumer can tell, so where are they drawing their empirical support from?

Furthermore, how Turbine chooses to shape their business is strictly speaking irrelevant to us. Do we seriously care that they are making more money or less money? Probably not. Do we care that if they choose to experiment with their business model a little, to take a little more risk to see what it brings? Again, probably not. Why should we? It seems like people are just trying to make it seem like they are players who are rightfully the 'chosen ones' in that they are more relevant to Turbine's business model than others, and therefore they should gain more benefits. Specifically, they want to ensure that they are better off than some other players. (What's the point of being more powerful if everyone is also made just as powerful, innit?)

In other words, I think this entire strand of discussion has derailed.

[kernal42]

That is my point.

I understand your point, and I understand that a company would rather receive known, regular payments than sporadic one-time payments; I also understand that more money is more money. There's no reason to argue any of that.

I just thought it was hypocritical of you to say that we can't ignore what you spend on top of the VIP sub, and then to ignore all of a Premium member's future payments by writing "If you stop playing tomorrow, Turbine loses ?"

Perhaps I'm reading too much into the "?" by assuming you're implying zero.

-Kernal

[rest]

Well you just shot yourself in the foot with that one. Premiums that purchase all content pay more than VIPs that only pay for the sub which will have to be active for anywhere between 1.5 years and 2.5 years. a little outdated but gives the jist off it:

"As you can see from the Grand Total charts if you’re happy with slots 1-4 you’ll be looking at a total of $218.32, which is about equivalent to 1.5 years of VIP subscription. And if you want slots 5-10 you are looking at a total of $320.02, or 2.2 years of VIP subscription."

cited from this web page:
http://furlugedepot.com/2009/09/15/t...-free-to-play/

This is not taking into account the premiums also buy xp pots, cakes, armor, hair dye, and etc.

This just takes into account the bare minimums alone. So therefore, they should get more than your VIP sub gets you.

You are right, they should.

Up until this post, I was willing to read (and re-read the stuff I skipped earlier) but now you're coming across as a GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME guy, and that's just ridiculous.

The REAL title of this thread should be "I want to open all dungeons on elite as a premium player, and have it cost me nothing!" If you really wanted to utilize the bravery bonus, you would have suggested alternate ways the bonus could function outside of a hard/elite only type of streak bonus. Instead all you've done is harp on how premium players are better than VIPs and should have more stuff given to them because (according to you) they pay more than VIPs.

[kernal42]

Also, and this is important:

None of us have the data describing average payments (monthly and total) by active Premium vs. active VIP accounts. Without these data, there's no point in discussing who pays more.

There's an answer to the question, and we don't have it, and it's irrelevant. Both Premium and VIP are important to Turbine's business plan.

-Kernal

[IamSooty]

Also, and this is important:

None of us have the data describing average payments (monthly and total) by active Premium vs. active VIP accounts. Without these data, there's no point in discussing who pays more.

There's an answer to the question, and we don't have it, and it's irrelevant. Both Premium and VIP are important to Turbine's business plan.

-Kernal

Ah! Thank you, a tl;dr of my earlier post. It's crazy how fast these threads grow sometimes.

[muny21]

There you go again. Prentending VIPs don't buy TPs, extra slots, and also pretending Premium buy EVERY adventure pack. Blatantly false.

You do know that if you bought the Korthos grog you are a Premium Player? Right? Shall we make a Strawman out of that and beat it up like you like to make a Strawman argument stating you pay more?

There you go again pretending premium players don't buy TPs after they purchase all content and also not reading what I originally posted. Just another person that likes to argue for the sake of arguing. We can do this all day.

I mentioned, in my original post that there are premiums that only bought the smallest pack and should not gain any perks.

MY SUGGESTION, SINCE YOU HAVE A HARD TIME READING, WAS TO ALLOW PREMIUMS THAT OWN ALL PACKS AND THUS ALL QUESTS THE ABILITY TO RUN ALL QUESTS ON ALL DIFFICULTIES. WHEN NEW PACK COMES OUT THEY LOSE PERK UNTIL SAID PACK IS BOUGHT TO REGAIN SUCH PERK.

The only way to look at it by examining the only "know" factor which is the bare minimum pricing. Pricing that all have to pay to "own" or "rent" the game. Drumroll please.......

It costs far more to "own" than to "rent".

But all this is irelevant as a pay to win should never be implemented but my point is to show how VIPs feel they deserve more because they feel they spend more. In which case it is not always true. Just like it is not always true that premiums spend more. However, I do fell as a premium member that has put a significant portion of my income that I should be afforded the option to receive perks as well. Even as my suggestions states it is not a cheap or easy perk to obtain and retain.

Furthermore, after reading some comments I do feel that the bravery bonus should be changed so that it does not rely on elite or hard openers. We all seem to agree that will solve this issue. Frankly, before this I could care less about elite opening. But if it is required to earn bonuses for my TRs, which I am on my six life of one, I am against it. Point blank as anyone really should be.

[kernal42]

It costs far more to "own" than to "rent".

Not really - it depends on time scale.

[rest]

There you go again pretending premium players don't buy TPs after they purchase all content and also not reading what I originally posted. Just another person that likes to argue for the sake of arguing. We can do this all day.

I mentioned, in my original post that there are premiums that only bought the smallest pack and should not gain any perks.

MY SUGGESTION, SINCE YOU HAVE A HARD TIME READING, WAS TO ALLOW PREMIUMS THAT OWN ALL PACKS AND THUS ALL QUESTS THE ABILITY TO RUN ALL QUESTS ON ALL DIFFICULTIES. WHEN NEW PACK COMES OUT THEY LOSE PERK UNTIL SAID PACK IS BOUGHT TO REGAIN SUCH PERK.

The only way to look at it by examining the only "know" factor which is the bare minimum pricing. Pricing that all have to pay to "own" or "rent" the game. Drumroll please.......

It costs far more to "own" than to "rent".

And again I submit that you don't actually care about the bravery bonus, you just want to have elite unlock. If you gave two squirts of **** about getting the bravery bonus, you would suggest changes that don't force you to only run hard and elite to get the bonus.

I'd rather "own" my own home than rent forever. But I'll "rent" the game because I prefer the flexibility.

[Mercules]

There you go again pretending premium players don't buy TPs after they purchase all content and also not reading what I originally posted. Just another person that likes to argue for the sake of arguing. We can do this all day.

I mentioned, in my original post that there are premiums that only bought the smallest pack and should not gain any perks.

MY SUGGESTION, SINCE YOU HAVE A HARD TIME READING, WAS TO ALLOW PREMIUMS THAT OWN ALL PACKS AND THUS ALL QUESTS THE ABILITY TO RUN ALL QUESTS ON ALL DIFFICULTIES. WHEN NEW PACK COMES OUT THEY LOSE PERK UNTIL SAID PACK IS BOUGHT TO REGAIN SUCH PERK.

The only way to look at it by examining the only "know" factor which is the bare minimum pricing. Pricing that all have to pay to "own" or "rent" the game. Drumroll please.......

It costs far more to "own" than to "rent".

Please explain how "I can play anything I have unlocked on Elite." is different from "I can play everything on Elite but obviously can't get into quests I haven't purchased." Not to get personal, but have you actually read your suggestion? Understand, if you haven't bought a quest you can't enter it. Period. So purchasing it means you can enter it. Thus saying you can only enter purchased quests on elite is the same as saying you can enter ALL quests on elite. 0 effective difference. Moronic idea read, understood and dismissed as moronic.

[IamSooty]

MY SUGGESTION, SINCE YOU HAVE A HARD TIME READING, WAS TO ALLOW PREMIUMS THAT OWN ALL PACKS AND THUS ALL QUESTS THE ABILITY TO RUN ALL QUESTS ON ALL DIFFICULTIES. WHEN NEW PACK COMES OUT THEY LOSE PERK UNTIL SAID PACK IS BOUGHT TO REGAIN SUCH PERK.

I haven't provided an opinion on your suggestion yet, but to be very frank I don't like it at all. It is unintuitive and arbitrary, and doesn't solve the problems with the Bravery Bonus at its root. It simply shifts the problem from Premium vs VIP to elsewhere.

[kernal42]

Please explain how "I can play anything I have unlocked on Elite." is different from "I can play everything on Elite but obviously can't get into quests I haven't purchased." Not to get personal, but have you actually read your suggestion? Understand, if you haven't bought a quest you can't enter it. Period. So purchasing it means you can enter it. Thus saying you can only enter purchased quests on elite is the same as saying you can enter ALL quests on elite. 0 effective difference. Moronic idea read, understood and dismissed as moronic.

I don't think you do understand it, actually, because there is a difference.
Now: Premium player owns all packs, but has to run on norm and hard before s/he can run on elite.
Then: Premium player owns all packs, and can run elite immediately!

Still a bad idea, though. Most of the advantage of going Premium is not having to buy all content.

Note, also, that this distinction is basically only more than a convenience for favor farming and the Bravery bonus.

-Kernal

[muny21]

Please explain how "I can play anything I have unlocked on Elite." is different from "I can play everything on Elite but obviously can't get into quests I haven't purchased." Not to get personal, but have you actually read your suggestion? Understand, if you haven't bought a quest you can't enter it. Period. So purchasing it means you can enter it. Thus saying you can only enter purchased quests on elite is the same as saying you can enter ALL quests on elite. 0 effective difference. Moronic idea read, understood and dismissed as moronic.

Dude you really can't read at all and to keep conversing with you is indeed moronic. I suggested that you have to own, wait for it,.........ALL PACKS to unlock elite for all. NOT buy one pack and it unlocks elite for that pack. I am really starting to feel bad for you. Hope you get some reading lessons soon. \

Good luck

[muny21]

I haven't provided an opinion on your suggestion yet, but to be very frank I don't like it at all. It is unintuitive and arbitrary, and doesn't solve the problems with the Bravery Bonus at its root. It simply shifts the problem from Premium vs VIP to elsewhere.

Ok thank you. finally someone that can read and has an opinion on the topic instead of vip deserves this and that. I am fine that you disagree. But I still feel it is a good compromise unless they change the way the bonus works then I could care less about elite hard casual or epic. just do not want be reliant on someone to get said bonus.

[Mercules]

Dude you really can't read at all and to keep conversing with you is indeed moronic. I suggested that you have to own, wait for it,.........ALL PACKS to unlock elite for all. NOT buy one pack and it unlocks elite for that pack. I am really starting to feel bad for you. Hope you get some reading lessons soon. \

Good luck

I know... but guess what. That is exactly the same as having access to everything. Just like I said. You couldn't play quest X unless you purchase quest X so having access only if quest X,Y,Z are bought is the same as having access to elite on all of them.

In addition in the link you posted WITH sigils which are gone it is only $270.87. So if we assume the new packs took the place of the cost of the sigils you are hardly paying more than someone who has subscribed much more than 2 years.

I still think a BETTER solution involving no money is to allow any TR to access quests on Hard. Now they get a portion of the bonus XP without negating the point of sticking VIP.

[muny21]

I don't think you do understand it, actually, because there is a difference.
Now: Premium player owns all packs, but has to run on norm and hard before s/he can run on elite.
Then: Premium player owns all packs, and can run elite immediately!

Still a bad idea, though. Most of the advantage of going Premium is not having to buy all content.

Note, also, that this distinction is basically only more than a convenience for favor farming and the Bravery bonus.

-Kernal

Why is it a bad idea? It is only for quests. I am not saying packs should give all VIP perks which they tend to forget includes all races and classes, extra slots, shared banks, and early access. That would be a terrible idea.

But if someone owns all the quest why not allow them to run any difficulty? Where is the harm in that. I would even go as far someone on the first page suggested and making it be for solo only. That way premiums could never open for anyone but themselves therefore giving vips the edge still.

But I guess VIPs have the need to feel special and would never agree to anything that makes them less special.

[rest]

Ok thank you. finally someone that can read and has an opinion on the topic instead of vip deserves this and that. I am fine that you disagree. But I still feel it is a good compromise unless they change the way the bonus works then I could care less about elite hard casual or epic. just do not want be reliant on someone to get said bonus.

I've said a few times you should offer up suggestions for a fix instead of using the shortsighted approach of giving elite opening capabilities to everyone. You just ignored that I said it or didn't want to acknowledge it.

[kernal42]

I know... but guess what. That is exactly the same as having access to everything. Just like I said. You couldn't play quest X unless you purchase quest X so having access only if quest X,Y,Z are bought is the same as having access to elite on all of them.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Of course having access to all quests is the same as having access to all quests; it's the elite access which is in question.

You do know that premium players cannot unlock elite until they've completed at least hard, right?

In addition in the link you posted WITH sigils which are gone it is only $270.87. So if we assume the new packs took the place of the cost of the sigils you are hardly paying more than someone who has subscribed much more than 2 years.

This is actually somewhat of a fallacy: The Premium option only came into existance 2 years ago, so comparing someone who's been VIP for 5 years to someone who bought all the packs as Premium 5 years ago is an impossible, and therefore irrelevant, comparison.

The better comparison is what has happened since Premium became an option; conveniently, the price of staying VIP and the price of buying all the content are similar.

Even more conveniently, it still doesn't matter!

-Kernal

[Darkrok]

If I dropped my sub, it would be because I wasn't going to play anymore, not because I threw a hissy fit and was mad at Turbine for XYZ reason.

While I agree with this I would drop my sub if they gave a difficulty unlock to everyone. Not out of anger...simply because I love the game, I plan on playing it for a long time, and it would then make economic sense to simply buy the content rather than renting it.

[muny21]

I've said a few times you should offer up suggestions for a fix instead of using the shortsighted approach of giving elite opening capabilities to everyone. You just ignored that I said it or didn't want to acknowledge it.

I did not ignore you. It is just this thread has become what I did not want it to be and your suggestion, like mine did on another thread hence this thread, got lost in the mix. I was ONLY suggesting that premiums ,and not everyone, that HAVE PURCHASED ALL PACKS AND QUESTS IN THE GAME THE ABILITY TO RUN SAID QUESTS ON ALL DIFFICULTIES.

Which again all VIPs that are failing to read and comprehend properly are only seeing their beloved elite unlock going to someone else and get their panties in a bunch.

And again, this is only in response to the bravery bonus which, hold your breath now, is the title of the thread. Guess what. The way it is now is VIP only. So my fix to it was to allow people that have put in just as much, or more or slightly less does not really matter, the same opportunity to reap the bonus.

[Mercules]

This is actually somewhat of a fallacy: The Premium option only came into existance 2 years ago, so comparing someone who's been VIP for 5 years to someone who bought all the packs as Premium 5 years ago is an impossible, and therefore irrelevant, comparison.

The better comparison is what has happened since Premium became an option; conveniently, the price of staying VIP and the price of buying all the content are similar.

Even more conveniently, it still doesn't matter!

-Kernal

It's not a fallacy, because in another year he will have still paid for his content and I will have added on another $120. Do you believe Turbine will put out over $120 dollars worth of unlock-able content that I get access to but he does not without paying for it?

I just pulled up more recent costs and all the quest packs together cost $161.95 assuming you bought the best pack of TP when it was on sale and didn't buy the packs when they were on sale but for full price. When they add three new adventure pakcs over the next year, averaging about 450TP each and a new class for say 500. That is $18.50 for next years "content". Paying VIP has diminishing returns without the couple perks we have.