Bravery Bonus For All

[Jandric]

VIP or Premium?

I have, and I'm VIP. Amusingly enough, given the tenor of some of these debates, I use mine for buying guest passes for F2P friends, guildies, and even the occasional Pugger who can't figure out why he can't get the quest with the big coin over the guy's head. (as well as armor kits, cakes, and all the other assorted stuff).

[Fenwulf]

What gets me is everyone arguing this as if it was implemented to be a perk for vip. To me is seems more like something turbine came up with for one purpose. To sell hard/elite unlocks from the store. The bravery bonus seems like a very convoluted setup unless you look at in that light to me. As such I think it will be a cold day in hell before they offer more people the ability to unlock hard elite like VIP. This whole system is all about trying to sell store items that currently have almost no value for the cost, so they are trying to increase their value.

[rest]

I'm a VIP. Have been for a long time. And I've purchased a few $50 point bundles. Not more than 5, but a few. My subscription has been active for 4 of the last 5 years. Where's my parade for spending all this money? Where's my internet high five for shelling out money?


IT'S NOT FAIR!!!

[LoveNeverFails]

Hmm, I'm actually a little confused by your assertion that VIPs give Turbine steady guaranteed revenue. I'm not well informed enough on MMO business models, so pardon my layman understanding. But isn't it correct to say that subscribers can, at any time, choose to cancel or not renew their subscription when it ends? Isn't it more accurate to say that they are just paying for the game in installments (if they keep playing the game forever) or renting the game (if they eventually stop playing the game after a short while)?

Fair enough, and very true. And I unfortunately cannot say what I'd like to say because I know that someone would ask me to back up my assertions with numbers that quite frankly, nobody has.

I'm VIP, because honestly, I can't afford to drop a couple of hundred dollars in the game to buy access to everything I want right now. Even with my occasional purchasing of TPs. So yes, I enjoy my VIP, and most people that are VIP decide to do so because they enjoy it as well. The perks of having the ability to have a bunch of toons, and much else.

Premium can currently buy EVERYTHING VIP has access to. Even including an elite unlock per quest. Give the ability to open that elite unlock account wide, and you will find that quite a few people will drop their subs and go to premium. I don't think that would be a good idea for Turbine.

[IamSooty]

I'm a VIP. Have been for a long time. And I've purchased a few $50 point bundles. Not more than 5, but a few. My subscription has been active for 4 of the last 5 years. Where's my parade for spending all this money? Where's my internet high five for shelling out money?


IT'S NOT FAIR!!!

Maybe all your decked out characters and the feel-good from your charitable actions?

[mournbladereigns]

Technically it is available for everyone. there's nothing stopping you from finding someone who can open elite if you don't have VIP yourself.

there's very, very few reasons to stay VIP, taking away one of the very few perks of being VIP will do nothing but kill the entire point of paying a sub.

or cough up (a ridiculous amount of) tp for a elite unlock.

[protokon]

or cough up (a ridiculous amount of) tp for a elite unlock.

I think the price of the hard/elite unlocks in the store do need to be looked at.

[rest]

Maybe all your decked out characters and the feel-good from your charitable actions?

Nah all my toons are horribly gimped!

[Mercules]

My challenge to all you VIPs is to give me a good reason how it affects your subs and your perks if someone that put in the same amount of money into the game in the form of one lump sum is afforded ONE of the perks you currently have?

It is simple, and I already stated it. I assumed, correctly, there would be something I as a VIP would have access to that Premium would not down the road. The gap between what I have and what a Premium has closes with every subscription fee. Instead of my subscription, I could have paid for everything my subscription affords me except for the two mentioned perks of Elite opening and early access to content(which is really not much of a perk). So why do I continue to pay Turbine my monthly fee if Premium has access to everything I do... cheaper?

Now, I posted in another thread stats that I will admit are older but were mentioned by Paiz and stated that surprisingly, VIP members purchased TPs above and beyond their subscription. To the toon of 75% more money than they would pay for their subscription alone over the lifetime of playing the game. In the same statement it was stated that non-subscribers were spending 70% of what they would for a subscription.

This was in 2010 but I have been unable to find anything more recent with a breakdown between Subscriber and non-subscriber but it does lend credence to what I state that VIPs spend as much, if not more than Premium including TP and Subscription.

So tell me again why you believe you should get the same opportunities as those who are offering not only similar burst income but steady income? I mean we are talking about a bonus that will allow you to level 9% faster? In a game where capping even a TR'd character can take about a month or two. Your not even paying anything more if it takes you three months because you have already given Turbine your money.

[muny21]

I'm VIP, because honestly, I can't afford to drop a couple of hundred dollars in the game to buy access to everything I want right now.

Premium can currently buy EVERYTHING VIP has access to. Even including an elite unlock per quest. Give the ability to open that elite unlock account wide, and you will find that quite a few people will drop their subs and go to premium. I don't think that would be a good idea for Turbine.

How so? You just stated that you can not afford to drop a couple of hundred dollars into the game. So why would you drop your sub if premiums that spend equal or more than you gain elite unlock?

This is the theme of all VIPs: the scare tactic.

If I don't get this or that I will drop my sub. Yeah right. Most VIPs can not afford to drop their subs because of all the perks it has and all the content they would be forced to purchase to keep such content.

VIPs that argue they need this perk to stay VIP are failing to realize what VIP means. I do have VIP guildies, friends and TR buddy that can unlock it for me. But to have to rely on some one to get a bonus is no the way to go.

I know they will fix it and then we will see all the VIPs starting threads about how it is unfair the premiums are getting bonus.

[kernal42]

Revisiting the complaint from a different perspective:

The Bravery system is designed to encourage players to run quests in certain ways.
Most players are Premium or F2P.
As a Premium or F2P player, it is difficult to unlock hard/elite for first completions.
Most players will not take advantage of the Bravery mechanic.
Therefore, the goal of encouraging players to run quests in certain ways is, for the most part, not met.

Cheers,
Kernal

[mournbladereigns]

Who is to say that your steady $10 a month for lets say two years which adds up to $240 is more than a one time lump sum of over $300 if you catch no sales. I tell you one thing any business would much rather take a huge lump sum over a not guaranteed monthly subscription that would take years to match. I would love to see one business refuse that.

Well like my first post stated, but I guess I got ahead of myslef and assumed people actually read before forming an opinion, there are extremes to both VIP and Premium. You have VIPs like yourself that pay for subs and also spend extra in store and you have VIPs that just pay sub only.

Your being quite disingenuous here. THere is a lot more involved in business than just a one-time lump sum payment.choice Cost of acquisition of customer, customer retention, long term sells, marketing channels. Successful businesses would rather have a regular cash-flow than ride the lump-sum roller coaster and having to constantly acquire new customers for one time purchases.

The basic sub rate is $15/mo paid monthly, The discount rate is $29.97/ every 3 months, paid in advance.The longer sub discounts are higher. And you have that person on the hook for the next 1/3/6/12 months to upsale too, with a reason to look in the store to spend their 'free' tp. It costs less to keep a customer than acquire a new one. Its been stated time and time again by Premiums that they 'will never give Turbine' another dime. Obviously subscribers don't share this opinion by definition.

So not really. VIP's provide ongoing income, plus upsale income. Provide an existing customer base to sell/resell too. Rather than trying to grab a new F2P player/recalcitrant premium and get them to make a variable one time purchase. (Saying we have 20,000 existing subscribers to pay the bills with is much better propositions than saying we only have to hustle 50,000 F2P/Premium players this year to pay the bills.)

so /notsigned

[Mercules]

Revisiting the complaint from a different perspective:

The Bravery system is designed to encourage players to run quests in certain ways.
Most players are Premium or F2P.
As a Premium or F2P player, it is difficult to unlock hard/elite for first completions.
Most players will not take advantage of the Bravery mechanic.
Therefore, the goal of encouraging players to run quests in certain ways is, for the most part, not met.

Cheers,
Kernal

If it was true that most players are Premium or F2P. I thought I saw recently that Subs were about 45% of the active players and I hate to say it, but F2P are not running "virgin" quests on Elite no matter what access they get, not successfully. Half them can't seem to find the banker.

[Darkrok]

Revisiting the complaint from a different perspective:

The Bravery system is designed to encourage players to run quests in certain ways.
Most players are Premium or F2P.
As a Premium or F2P player, it is difficult to unlock hard/elite for first completions.
Most players will not take advantage of the Bravery mechanic.
Therefore, the goal of encouraging players to run quests in certain ways is, for the most part, not met.

Cheers,
Kernal

/agree

Now the trick is for Turbine to find a way to encourage players to run quests a certain way while not taking away the only major benefit for being VIP. I've made my suggestions above and given the level of Turbine involvement on the boards lately I'd encourage everyone else to do the same. It's worth the time because they do seem to be listening.

[Uska]

Again no and its not needed they said they were probaly going to give it to TR's and that should be good enough as with this non this new bravery bonus would make them level in no time and its not about VIP's wanting to feel important its about getting something for the continued support of the game I dont get people's sense of entitlement these days.

[rest]

How so? You just stated that you can not afford to drop a couple of hundred dollars into the game. So why would you drop your sub if premiums that spend equal or more than you gain elite unlock?

This is the theme of all VIPs: the scare tactic.

If I don't get this or that I will drop my sub. Yeah right. Most VIPs can not afford to drop their subs because of all the perks it has and all the content they would be forced to purchase to keep such content.

VIPs that argue they need this perk to stay VIP are failing to realize what VIP means. I do have VIP guildies, friends and TR buddy that can unlock it for me. But to have to rely on some one to get a bonus is no the way to go.

I know they will fix it and then we will see all the VIPs starting threads about how it is unfair the premiums are getting bonus.

Maybe she meant a couple of hundred dollars at once. 10 bucks a month spread out over 24 months is a little easier for some people to take than a big fat $240 expenditure all in one go.

If premiums get elite unlock will I drop my sub? No. Will it affect my gameplay significantly? Nah. Is it a nice perk to have? Absolutely it is. Do I ever tell someone "No I won't unlock that on elite for you! You're premium! become VIP n00b!!"? Nope.

If I dropped my sub, it would be because I wasn't going to play anymore, not because I threw a hissy fit and was mad at Turbine for XYZ reason.

I think they just need to re-work the bravery bonus so it doesn't require a hard or elite unlock to function. I agree that having it only count for hard/elite runs sucks for people who can't unlock those difficulties. Don't change the pre-existing perk VIPs get; instead change the new mechanic to work for premium/f2p players/VIPs equally.

[kernal42]

If it was true that most players are Premium or F2P. I thought I saw recently that Subs were about 45% of the active players and I hate to say it, but F2P are not running "virgin" quests on Elite no matter what access they get, not successfully. Half them can't seem to find the banker.

I'm interested to see where that statistic is from. I know that 90% of the people I play with (whose payment status I know, at least) are Premium, and the rest are VIP. Obviously my sample set is skewed (for example, it contains no F2P), so I'd like to see a real accounting.

-Kernal

[muny21]

Your being quite disingenuous here. THere is a lot more involved in business than just a one-time lump sum payment.choice Cost of acquisition of customer, customer retention, long term sells, marketing channels. Successful businesses would rather have a regular cash-flow than ride the lump-sum roller coaster and having to constantly acquire new customers for one time purchases.

The basic sub rate is $15/mo paid monthly, The discount rate is $29.97/ every 3 months, paid in advance.The longer sub discounts are higher. And you have that person on the hook for the next 1/3/6/12 months to upsale too, with a reason to look in the store to spend their 'free' tp. It costs less to keep a customer than acquire a new one. Its been stated time and time again by Premiums that they 'will never give Turbine' another dime. Obviously subscribers don't share this opinion by definition.

So not really. VIP's provide ongoing income, plus upsale income. Provide an existing customer base to sell/resell too. Rather than trying to grab a new F2P player/recalcitrant premium and get them to make a variable one time purchase. (Saying we have 20,000 existing subscribers to pay the bills with is much better propositions than saying we only have to hustle 50,000 F2P/Premium players this year to pay the bills.)

so /notsigned

You are telling a business would rather have $10 a month for one year for a total of $120 over another customer spending $200- $300 in the same year to "own" their product?

People are just silly. That is bad business 101.

I did not include extra purchases because to be honest there is no way to tell. But the bare minimums speak for themselves and is a reason that turbine introduced the premium account.

[Mercules]

I am perfectly fine with TRs getting access to Hard no matter what their current plan is. That is right if someone never puts a dime into Turbine's pocket, gets to 20 and TRs I think they should be able to get some access to this feature.

If they are going to give others the Elite Open perk then hopefully they will grant VIPs some other reason to pay the light bill.

[Jandric]

It is simple, and I already stated it. I assumed, correctly, there would be something I as a VIP would have access to that Premium would not down the road. The gap between what I have and what a Premium has closes with every subscription fee. Instead of my subscription, I could have paid for everything my subscription affords me except for the two mentioned perks of Elite opening and early access to content(which is really not much of a perk). So why do I continue to pay Turbine my monthly fee if Premium has access to everything I do... cheaper?

Now, I posted in another thread stats that I will admit are older but were mentioned by Paiz and stated that surprisingly, VIP members purchased TPs above and beyond their subscription. To the toon of 75% more money than they would pay for their subscription alone over the lifetime of playing the game. In the same statement it was stated that non-subscribers were spending 70% of what they would for a subscription.

This was in 2010 but I have been unable to find anything more recent with a breakdown between Subscriber and non-subscriber but it does lend credence to what I state that VIPs spend as much, if not more than Premium including TP and Subscription.

So tell me again why you believe you should get the same opportunities as those who are offering not only similar burst income but steady income? I mean we are talking about a bonus that will allow you to level 9% faster? In a game where capping even a TR'd character can take about a month or two. Your not even paying anything more if it takes you three months because you have already given Turbine your money.

This. Why pay more money over time if there's virtually no difference between the level of service in premium and VIP. The 500 free TP a month is nice, but it's elite unlock that keeps me VIP. Otherwise I'd do what all of the premiums do- save money over the long run by buying the content pack by pack.