The other problem with the Bravery Bonus

[Angelus_dead]

Everyone's said TR'ing isn't a challenge it's a grind of running the same handful of quests over and over and over again. This helps eliminate the grind by allowing players to go through more quests by running each one into the ground just a little less.

There's more than one kind of bonus they could give.

To make it more productive for you to run several different Elite quests instead of repeating Shadow Crypt again, all it takes is to make the first-time-elite multiplier really big. The mechanic about breaking a streak and losing bonuses if you happen to do something first-time-normal doesn't encourage you to play a variety of quests. It does the opposite: it encourages you to avoid going off the beaten path to places you're not sure you can safely manage on Elite, and stick with what you already know and rehearsed.

[Coldin]

Not sure where this additional 20% bonus came from. Did they add a static bonus aswell?

Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood
As to the Elite/Hard not being rewarding enough, we got this change coming soon(tm). I'm quoting from Lammania release notes:

* A new bonus has been created that awards players for running quests consecutively on hard and elite difficulties. This Bravery Bonus is a 5% bonus (10% bonus on Elite) that will "stack" up to five times, or until a player runs a quest on Normal difficulty.
* XP Rewards for first time completion on normal, hard, and elite are now 25%, 40% and 80% respectively. So, yeah. Die harder!


So i read it as.....

First run on elite = base + 80% + 10% bravery + optionals etc....
Fifth consecutive elite run = base +50% bravery stack + optionals etc...

Nope, you have it wrong.

First run on elite = base + 80% + 0% bravery + etc.
Fifth run on elite = base +80% + 50% bravery +ect.

The quest goes off your counter for bravery bonuses, so the first time you get no bravery bonus. Also, consecutive runs of a quest do not have any bearing on bravery counters. You have to run new quests for the first time to get a bravery bonus and to advance your counter.

[Coldin]

There's more than one kind of bonus they could give.

To make it more productive for you to run several different Elite quests instead of repeating Shadow Crypt again, all it takes is to make the first-time-elite multiplier really big. The mechanic about breaking a streak and losing bonuses if you happen to do something first-time-normal doesn't encourage you to play a variety of quests. It does the opposite: it encourages you to avoid going off the beaten path to places you're not sure you can safely manage on Elite, and stick with what you already know and rehearsed.

This is why I think reducing counters instead of wiping them would be a better implementation of this system. Running a quest on normal shouldn't completely invalidate your streak of first-time elite runs.

Of course, maybe this might still get people to go off the beaten path. Even if you have a hard time with it (perhaps even dying a few times), completing the quest on elite should still count for the bravery bonus.

The first time elite bonus should be enough to diminish endless repetition of one quest. Heading over to another quest for that first time elite bonus might be more appealing than running Shadow Crypt again with a -10% xp penalty.

[Truga]

We had a long discussion about this in Guild last night and are leaning towards the fact the Bonus probably would be used in spurts.

Run the Four Depths Series Quest to build the bonus than Run Delera's, Run four/five random simple quests than run Cult of the Six. Run for Random Quests than Necropolis II.

I'll be doing this myself. There's a lot of quests that just don't warrant going elite for a couple percent extra total XP from a window farm.

[Seikojin]

Not sure where this additional 20% bonus came from. Did they add a static bonus aswell?

Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood
As to the Elite/Hard not being rewarding enough, we got this change coming soon(tm). I'm quoting from Lammania release notes:

* A new bonus has been created that awards players for running quests consecutively on hard and elite difficulties. This Bravery Bonus is a 5% bonus (10% bonus on Elite) that will "stack" up to five times, or until a player runs a quest on Normal difficulty.
* XP Rewards for first time completion on normal, hard, and elite are now 25%, 40% and 80% respectively. So, yeah. Die harder!


So i read it as.....

First run on elite = base + 80% + 10% bravery + optionals etc....
Fifth consecutive elite run = base +50% bravery stack + optionals etc...

The extra 20% is doing the quest first time on elite or hard. Meaning, by having someone open hard or elite for you, you get that additional bonus.

[Alizar]

There's more than one kind of bonus they could give.

To make it more productive for you to run several different Elite quests instead of repeating Shadow Crypt again, all it takes is to make the first-time-elite multiplier really big. The mechanic about breaking a streak and losing bonuses if you happen to do something first-time-normal doesn't encourage you to play a variety of quests. It does the opposite: it encourages you to avoid going off the beaten path to places you're not sure you can safely manage on Elite, and stick with what you already know and rehearsed.

Lol. How big do you think this game is. With this system in place I could see myself doing all the less attractive quests on elite then doing the farms at the end. Will see how it works out. Dont like the idea of using up my elites 2 character lvls below quest lvl. Might make xp a little scarce at some levels that lack enough quests.

Also, can only see this working up to about lvl 16. The game gets too difficult on elite after this point without the proper party etc to complete effectively.

[Alizar]

The extra 20% is doing the quest first time on elite or hard. Meaning, by having someone open hard or elite for you, you get that additional bonus.

He quoted it for you. The bonuses have been replaced with 25,50,80 for first time completions. Dont know where the 20 is from. Old first time elite bonus was 50 I believe which is now replaced with the 80.

[sirgog]

Lol. How big do you think this game is. With this system in place I could see myself doing all the less attractive quests on elite then doing the farms at the end. Will see how it works out. Dont like the idea of using up my elites 2 character lvls below quest lvl. Might make xp a little scarce at some levels that lack enough quests.

Also, can only see this working up to about lvl 16. The game gets too difficult on elite after this point without the proper party etc to complete effectively.

There's a lot of quite easy high level quests on Elite.

IQ1 is all PUGgable on Elite (Mindsunder requires similar competence to normal VOD)
IQ2 is also all PUGgable on Elite, except Dreaming Dark (which is PUGgable on Hard)
Prey on the Hunter (even including the dragon optional) is PUGgable on Elite.

Likewise all Vale walkups, all bar In The Flesh of the U9 chain, and many others.

Regardless, though - Bravery is a bonus. If you elect never to sustain a Bravery streak, you can still get all the XP available on Live at the moment, plus the extra 15% of base XP for your first Hard completion, and the extra 30% of base XP for your first Elite.

[MRH]

We really need a dev to straighten it out once and for all......

When it states :

This Bravery Bonus is a 5% bonus (10% bonus on Elite) that will "stack" up to five times, or until a player runs a quest on Normal difficulty

That sentence as it is written means the first time you run a quest and run it on Elite you will get a 10% bonus

now run it again and you get 20%

not 0% on first elite, and 20% on second elite

when you stack something, you still count the first to the fifth so 10% x 5 elite runs = 50% for that last run.

Will a DEV please clear this up so we are not guessing.

THX !

[Alizar]

Proper party as in 6 party members is what I meant. I dont have much patients and usually end up running quests anywhere from solo to up to 6 party members. It all depends on what the LFM brings. So after lvl 16 this slows me down having to wait for the LFM to fill before doing the elite quest. Also, pugs bring a lot of first timers to these elite LFMs which makes running the actual quest slow as well. Up to lvl 16...not a problem.

I never noticed that xp boost to base xp on live lol. Ill need to check that out first chance I get to log back in :P.

My question is how does the hard difficulty fit in with this. I mean, if I build up my 50% bravery bonus on doing elites then can I run those same quests on hard to build up an additional 25% hard bonus or do I need to run 5 new quests on hard to get the hard bonus up to 25%?

Does running a quest on hard after the elite 50% bravery is stacked reset it to 0?

Thinking its one or the other. So if I run the 6th quest on hard then I lose the chance for elite bonus on that quest and if I run it on elite then I lose the hard bonus for the quest...right?

[Cashiry]

Not sure where this additional 20% bonus came from. Did they add a static bonus aswell?

See screen shot below... I stumbled across this on Lama and posted it in another thread, it was not in the release notes...

You have never played this adventure before and have chosen to play on Elite dificulty. Bravery Bonus +20%

[Cashiry]

I will most likely skip Korthos and go directly to do the solo harbor quests first, need the coin lord favor for the back pack space. Don't need the solo quests interfering with the Elite Streak. Then head back to Korthos and start the elite's.

[Isolani]

Sadly I have to agree with the above poster, the Bravery Bonus system as it is "Proposed" to be is frought with way too many issues, and may actually lower overall XP from some quests. Bear with me as I explain that last point.

Currently most "high" XP/Min quests are run 8+ Times on normal, and then finally on H and E, ensuring "FULL" XP on those runs since you will get the first time bonus. However if you run those same quests by doing E First, it will count as ONE of your total completions, meaning that a run routine of (E,Nx8,H) is mathmatically worse then (Nx8,H,E).

Just in case you think I'm talking crazy talk, here's a MATH Example 10k XP Quest, Assuming Full x5 Bravery Stack and the "New" First time run bonus's.

10k +80% Elite First Time + 50% Bravery = 23k
10k +25 Normal First Time = 12.5
10k = 10k
10k -10% = 9k
10k - 20% = 8k
10k - 30% = 7k
10k - 40% = 6k
10k - 50% = 5k
10k - 60% = 4k
10k +50% Hard First Time = 15k
Total for (E,Nx8,H) = 99.5k

10k +25% Normal First Time = 12.5
10k = 10k
10k = 10k
10k -10% = 9k
10k - 20% = 8k
10k - 30% = 7k
10k - 40% = 6k
10k - 50% = 5k
10k +50% Hard First Time = 15k
10k +80% Elite First Time = 18k
Total for (Nx8,H,E) = 100.5k

So you get MORE XP by NOT USING THE BRAVERY BONUS and just keep on doing **** the way we always have.

So yeah, Bravery Bonus = FAIL

The fact that who knows how many hours of developement time was wasted to create a system that doesn't actually help the players at all, change how they run quests, or reduce the number of times required to run a quest... seriously.

You are missing the whole point of the bravery bonus. It's purpose is to make running quests a ridiculous number of times like you are calculating not necessary. Yes, people will still farm the heck out of the good farming quests, but now there is a big incentive (+150% xp for 1st elite run with streak) to run a bigger variety of quests, either just once on elite for the big bonus, or maybe E, H, N and then move on to a new quest. The less quest repeating you do, the bigger the effect the bravery bonus will have for you. If you're going to farm a handful of quests into oblivion, the bravery bonus is less of an impact, but even in that case you will still benefit from the higher 1st time xp bonus for hard and elite.

[Isolani]

He quoted it for you. The bonuses have been replaced with 25,50,80 for first time completions. Dont know where the 20 is from. Old first time elite bonus was 50 I believe which is now replaced with the 80.

There is a bravery bonus of +20% for running a new quest on elite your first run, the streak bonus is a separate bonus. So the max bonus for entering a "virgin" quest for the 1st time on elite is 150% (80% for elite, +20% bravery, +50% streak). I assume there is a bravery bonus for hard also, maybe 10%? Haven't heard anything about it yet though.

[Xionanx]

You are missing the whole point of the bravery bonus. It's purpose is to make running quests a ridiculous number of times like you are calculating not necessary. Yes, people will still farm the heck out of the good farming quests, but now there is a big incentive (+150% xp for 1st elite run with streak) to run a bigger variety of quests, either just once on elite for the big bonus, or maybe E, H, N and then move on to a new quest. The less quest repeating you do, the bigger the effect the bravery bonus will have for you. If you're going to farm a handful of quests into oblivion, the bravery bonus is less of an impact, but even in that case you will still benefit from the higher 1st time xp bonus for hard and elite.

No, I think I got the point dead on. If the POINT is to encourage players to not run the same quest multiple times, then it fails in that its STILL advantageous to run the the HIGH XP/Min quests multiple times.

Yeah, you may find people running "Some" quests only once on elite for the bonus and then never again, but for the majority of players who are TR'ing and going for completionist its still faster to grind the "Good" quests and ignore the ****** ones, even IF they offer an addional 70% XP for "Bravery".

The Bravery Bonus FAILS in its intended purpose.

Perhaps they should have added a "Variety" streak instead, that gives a steadily increasing 10% bonus every time you run a DIFFERENT quest regardless of its difficulty level and/or the number of times you have done it, that way players who say go out to the necropolis would be encouraged to run all the tombs in sequence before doing the crypts since they would build a bonus doing it that way, rather then just farming the good one's...

[BoBo2020]

The bravery bonus does create a really strong option for leveling a permadeather who is using the 1 time per quest rule.

[QuantumFX]

Personally, I would like to see the mechanic changed so that you don’t lose your streak if you’re tackling a quest underlevel.

[Silverleafeon]

Sigh, I am soooo disappointed.

When I read this quickly:

General Quest Changes


A new bonus has been created that awards characters for running quests for the first time consecutively on hard and elite difficulties within their level range (up to two levels above the level of a quest on normal difficulty.) This Bravery Bonus is a 5% bonus (10% bonus on Elite) that will "stack" up to five times, or until a character runs a quest they have not run before on Normal difficulty.
XP Rewards for first time completion on normal, hard, and elite are now 25%, 40% and 80% respectively.

My impression left out the phrase "for the first time" and it read like this:

General Quest Changes


A new bonus has been created that awards characters for running quests consecutively on hard and elite difficulties within their level range (up to two levels above the level of a quest on normal difficulty.) This Bravery Bonus is a 5% bonus (10% bonus on Elite) that will "stack" up to five times, or until a character runs a quest they have not run before on Normal difficulty.
XP Rewards for first time completion on normal, hard, and elite are now 25%, 40% and 80% respectively.

So, I said to myself, nice, Turbine is saying to Completionist, you think you are uber run everything on hard or elite.
(This would make trapmasters more in demand, and so forth.)
This makes double TRs xp not quite so harsh, if you are uber enough to pull it off.

But then someone explained to me how it really works, and I was soooo disappointed...

[Xionanx]

Sigh, I am soooo disappointed.

When I read this quickly:



My impression left out the phrase "for the first time" and it read like this:



So, I said to myself, nice, Turbine is saying to Completionist, you think you are uber run everything on hard or elite.
(This would make trapmasters more in demand, and so forth.)
This makes double TRs xp not quite so harsh, if you are uber enough to pull it off.

But then someone explained to me how it really works, and I was soooo disappointed...

exactly, if it counted every time I ran a quest on elite, regardless then I would be running elite all day every day.