The other problem with the Bravery Bonus

[Karbalis]

This has been my thought as well. Sure, Elite is awesome...but that Elite quest is my Level + 2/3, and the current system incentivizes you to run quests that are my Level - 1.

The place I do see using it, though, is going back and doing one-and-done Elite quests that I hate, and actually getting a reasonably good xp reward for it instead of just the favor. Or going back and doing something on Elite that I missed long ago and might be at -60% or more, and Bravery can bring it back up to a useful reward point.

Remember though that the notes state:

for the first time consecutively on hard and elite difficulties within their level range (up to two levels above the level of a quest on normal difficulty.)

So you could be 2 levels above the quest on normal, i.e. be "at level" on Elite, and still be getting the bonus.

Considering a TR is already a bit more powerful from the start, and probably already has alot of the best gear for whatever level they are available to them for every level, it could be very doable.

[moops]

I actually really like this system, it benefits people like me who don't grind and windowfarm the same 20 quests when we TR. I do a wide array of quests, and many times I do them on elite first, as it might be the only time I do them. For instance Tangleroot is something I only run one time, and I run it on Elite, the same for the Lordsmarch plaza quests. I round robin quests in Orchard, GH, Vale and Amrath, so again, it will benefit me and a others I know who do this.

It gives us many choices--those that want to get all scientific can, and those of us who just play can just play and get benefits.

[Morosy]

Sadly I have to agree with the above poster, the Bravery Bonus system as it is "Proposed" to be is frought with way too many issues, and may actually lower overall XP from some quests. Bear with me as I explain that last point.

Currently most "high" XP/Min quests are run 8+ Times on normal, and then finally on H and E, ensuring "FULL" XP on those runs since you will get the first time bonus. However if you run those same quests by doing E First, it will count as ONE of your total completions, meaning that a run routine of (E,Nx8,H) is mathmatically worse then (Nx8,H,E).

Just in case you think I'm talking crazy talk, here's a MATH Example 10k XP Quest, Assuming Full x5 Bravery Stack and the "New" First time run bonus's.

10k +80% Elite First Time + 50% Bravery = 23k
10k +25 Normal First Time = 12.5
10k = 10k
10k -10% = 9k
10k - 20% = 8k
10k - 30% = 7k
10k - 40% = 6k
10k - 50% = 5k
10k - 60% = 4k
10k +50% Hard First Time = 15k
Total for (E,Nx8,H) = 99.5k

10k +25% Normal First Time = 12.5
10k = 10k
10k = 10k
10k -10% = 9k
10k - 20% = 8k
10k - 30% = 7k
10k - 40% = 6k
10k - 50% = 5k
10k +50% Hard First Time = 15k
10k +80% Elite First Time = 18k
Total for (Nx8,H,E) = 100.5k

So you get MORE XP by NOT USING THE BRAVERY BONUS and just keep on doing **** the way we always have.

So yeah, Bravery Bonus = FAIL

The fact that who knows how many hours of developement time was wasted to create a system that doesn't actually help the players at all, change how they run quests, or reduce the number of times required to run a quest... seriously.

I thought the same way as you, but I have learned the error of my ways. The E, Nx8, H is better.

For one, base xp is higher on Elite. This makes a difference because it means the 50% Streak bonus and 20% Bravery bonus add even more.

You aren't even counting the Bravery bonus (20%) it seems, you are only counting the Streak bonus(50%).

(They both have to do with Bravery in the description, but to avoid confusion it's just easier to say streak bonus and bravery bonus)

[Xionanx]

I actually really like this system, it benefits people like me who don't grind and windowfarm the same 20 quests when we TR. I do a wide array of quests, and many times I do them on elite first, as it might be the only time I do them. For instance Tangleroot is something I only run one time, and I run it on Elite, the same for the Lordsmarch plaza quests. I round robin quests in Orchard, GH, Vale and Amrath, so again, it will benefit me and a others I know who do this.

It gives us many choices--those that want to get all scientific can, and those of us who just play can just play and get benefits.

So your telling me you TR and give absolutely NO thought on how your gonna get the XP needed to cap? You dont bank XP? Farm high XP quests at all? Only run the TR series once on elite? Somehow I find that hard to believe.

My point being with the math I demonstrated is that this new "Bravery Bonus" which is/was intended to boost the XP players get from quests by giving them a bonus, actually FAILS its intended purpose.

The ONLY point that the bravery bonus would help under is IF you only ran the quests 3x, once on E/H/N. Once you hit the point in your XP grinding career where you need to repeat a quest on normal multiple times (which is when the bonus SHOULD be helping) it does nothing for you.

Basically all this really does is let NON-TR ViP's cap 3x as fast as they did before, because its the Non-TR's that don't need to grind normal 8+times on a quest.

Its a poor implementation of a good intention.

[Xionanx]

I thought the same way as you, but I have learned the error of my ways. The E, Nx8, H is better.

Lol, for one, base xp is higher on Elite. This makes a difference because it means the 50% Streak bonus and 20% Bravery bonus add even more.

You aren't even counting the Bravery bonus (20%) it seems, you are only counting the Streak bonus(50%).

The Bravery Bonus "IS" the streak Bonus, and yes, its there.

[Morosy]

The Bravery Bonus "IS" the streak Bonus, and yes, its there.

No. There are two separate bonuses.

[Xionanx]

No.

??? Just NO? Please explain the Bonus that I'm missing mister all knowing.

The "Bravery Bonus" for runnnig a quest on ELITE for the First time CAPS OUT AT 50%.

It STARTS at 20% and increases in 10% Increments UP TO 50%. As you can CLEARLY SEE, I have placed a 50% Bonus there for Bravery.

So please, explain what I'm missing.. Educate me.

[Morosy]

??? Just NO? Please explain the Bonus that I'm missing mister all knowing.

The "Bravery Bonus" for runnnig a quest on ELITE for the First time CAPS OUT AT 50%.

It STARTS at 20% and increases in 10% Increments UP TO 50%. As you can CLEARLY SEE, I have placed a 50% Bonus there for Bravery.

So please, explain what I'm missing.. Educate me.

Yea sorry about that. The "No." was not intended to be the entire post, and you quoted it before I quickly corrected it.

I don't think it starts at 20% though. Without ever getting a streak at all, you can still earn 20% additional xp for simply doing elite the first time in a quest. Then, if you happened to have a streak, I believe you can benefit from both of these.

This is the general idea put forth by quite a few posters so far and even a screenshot to confirm, unless you are saying the two do not stack, for which I apologize if that is the case.

[ReaperAlexEU]

/Rant On
The whole Bravery thing is Bogus from the start.

Basically is for those that TR so is catering to just one group Of players..

Unless the Game is going to reset Every ones Quest list to zero the Concept is Flawed.

I have many quests I have run on hard and elite so I can't get the bravery Bonus for them..
Why Because I have done the quest already at level for my level..

I hope the Idea gets Scraped.. Or just another way to Let TR's have there way.. And get X amount of XP per min.

/Rant Off


Sleeps

well yeah, it is gonna suck for existing characters when the system goes live, which includes existing TR's working back to cap. any new characters however will be able to really milk it. i was messing about with the new repeater mechanics and getting a fighter to lvl2 was a lost faster with the bravery bonuses than it is on live.

don't forget this idea is for TR's, there was talk of limiting TR's to hard or elite only to replace some of the grind for more difficulty. the dev's read that idea and came up with this bravery reward, which is not just for TR's.

seeing as its easy enough to hit cap on a non-TR the bravery bonus is just a nice to have for non-TR's. i think its multi-TR's that will really be focusing the most on keeping their bravery bonus maxed out.

i see no reason to scrap it just because we have existing characters. if any thing its a reason to ask for some way to have the bravery bonus flags all set to nothing for existing characters

[Angelus_dead]

Yes, I anticipate there'd be a real problem with how this bonus doesn't account for "Elite" raising the difficulty by different amounts for different quests. I rather suspect the devs tested it in mostly level 1-12 dungeons, where Elite isn't all that bad.

I am sure there are others that will make this list, but those ar ethe ones that stand out in my mind as real meat grinders for at level toons on elite.

Say, did you try Demon's Den Elite? Gianthold Tor elite might not be too bad, since you can stop after the Gatekeeper and go back on Normal for the dragons. But then with the new buffed-up Reaver's Fate boss those midlevel characters might not be able to handle the raid! (Or at least they'd have to team with 20s to beat it)

[moops]

So your telling me you TR and give absolutely NO thought on how your gonna get the XP needed to cap? You dont bank XP? Farm high XP quests at all? Only run the TR series once on elite? Somehow I find that hard to believe.

My point being with the math I demonstrated is that this new "Bravery Bonus" which is/was intended to boost the XP players get from quests by giving them a bonus, actually FAILS its intended purpose.

The ONLY point that the bravery bonus would help under is IF you only ran the quests 3x, once on E/H/N. Once you hit the point in your XP grinding career where you need to repeat a quest on normal multiple times (which is when the bonus SHOULD be helping) it does nothing for you.

Basically all this really does is let NON-TR ViP's cap 3x as fast as they did before, because its the Non-TR's that don't need to grind normal 8+times on a quest.

Its a poor implementation of a good intention.

Its true ask my guildies and friends--I only run most quests on n/h/e, I don't even care if higher lvl people come along and I get -10% xp. I rarely window farm--most of the time this happens I join a group that is already doing it so I do a few then leave, I didn't even do shadow crypt or litany on my Last TR--and my TR b4 that on her 4th life only did shadow crypt once on Elite. I havent done the Pit on the last 4 or 5 lives.

But I enjoy questing, and I do all sorts of quests, as well as kill time in Slayer areas while I'm putting together raids or waiting for guildies--I'm in no rush to get to 20 as I have 7 capped alts, often times once I get to 18 I just raid with some slayers and misc quests, sure I don't TR in 2 weeks, but I also don't feel like the game is a grind. There is a ton of xp in this game, people tend to only concentrate on the large xp things, but if one does some of those other quests, they all add up.

[Xionanx]

Yea sorry about that. The "No." was not intended to be the entire post, and you quoted it before I quickly corrected it.

I don't think it starts at 20% though. Without ever getting a streak at all, you can still earn 20% additional xp for simply doing elite the first time in a quest. Then, if you happened to have a streak, I believe you can benefit from both of these.

This is the general idea put forth by quite a few posters so far and even a screenshot to confirm, unless you are saying the two do not stack, for which I apologize.

So your saying there is an

80% First Time Elite
20% Static just for running elite for the first time on a quest
AND
A Stacking 10% Bonus up to 50%
Meaning the "Total" bravery bonus with a full stack would be 70%, not 50%?

Even with that addtional 20% XP, it only increases the total XP gained in my example by 2k, so you'll go from 99.5 to 101.5, or 1k more then the Nx8/H/E routine we do now.

So I will stick by my original statement, it FAILS in its intended purpose. The extra time and effort put into aquiring and the maintaining the bravery bonus would not justify the slight gain in XP it will give.

The only people who will gain any major benefit from this are ViP's on NON-TR toons that dont need to grind XP. As soon as you need to grind, which is when the bonus should be helping the most, it doesn't really help at all. In fact it will probably SLOW down your leveling process as you seek out elite openers or people to help you complete the quest on elite for the first time.

[Xionanx]

Just for ***** and giggles and to drive the point home that the "Bravery Bonus" isn't what its cracked up to be:

Here's another math example, I'm using the actual XP values for The Shadow Crypt, as its a common quest to farm multiple times on normal, and is a good candidate for using an "Elite Opener" for since most people get an opener for this quest anyway.

I am going off of the assumption that:
You have a full 5 stack of the Elite Bravery Bonus and there there is an additional 20% (as suggested by above).

Elite Base is 9,300
Hard Base is 8,840
Normal Base is 8,380

23,250 For Elite + 80% First Time + 50% Bravery Stack + 20% Bravery Bonus
10,475 For Normal + 25%
8,380 For Normal 3rd run
7,542 For Normal - 10% 4th Run
6,704 For Normal - 20% 5th Run
5,866 For Normal - 30% 6th Run
5,028 For Normal - 40% 7th Run
4,190 For Normal - 50% 8th Run
3,352 For Normal - 60% 9th Run
13,260 For Hard + 50% First Time 10th Run
88,047 Total for (E,Nx8,H) with Full bravery stack and 20% Bonus

10,475 For Normal + 25%
8,380 For Normal 2nd run
8,380 For Normal 3rd run
7,542 For Normal - 10% 4th Run
6,704 For Normal - 20% 5th Run
5,866 For Normal - 30% 6th Run
5,028 For Normal - 40% 7th Run
4,190 For Normal - 50% 8th Run
13,260 For Hard + 50% First Time 9th Run
15,912 For Elite + 80% First Time 10th Run
85,737 Total for (Nx8,H,E) with No Bravery Bonus of any kind.

For a 2310 XP Difference in favor of the Bravery Bonus. However I should proint out that the "Optional" XP given in the quest are NOT affected completion bonus's, but they ARE affected by multiple run penalties. So for all intents and purposes you'll probably get less by running on E first, as I'm sure that the optionals will more then make up the 2310 XP difference. This is also assuming there is an additional 20% bonus as Morosy suggests, I dont believe there is, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

So again, you have to ask yourself, is 2310 XP worth the extra time and effort you would put in to build a full 5 stack in the first place, and then hunt down an elite opener to open it for you? I personally dont believe it is..

The whole point about this bonus is to provide a significant boost to XP to reduce grinding, but it barely increases the XP at all over our normal grinding routine's. I'm hoping that the dev's seriously consider reworking the idea and implementing it differently, because as it is now it fails its intended function.

[LeLoric]

stuff

Yeah but its a significant xp bonus for shadow crypt to go Ex10NH

And before you say time diffeence for that many elites this is how I run SC's anyways as I wait till I am level 12. It is really no longer with casters to run it norm vs elite. Not every quest works this way.

Anyways I think you are getting away from what the feature is designed to do which is prevent having to run the same quest over and over and over. Sure you can still do that but this feature gives an option to do a more broad variety of quests and keep up xp wise with the people farming few quests.

[Xionanx]

Yeah but its a significant xp bonus for shadow crypt to go Ex10NH

And before you say time diffeence for that many elites this is how I run SC's anyways as I wait till I am level 12. It is really no longer with casters to run it norm vs elite. Not every quest works this way.

Anyways I think you are getting away from what the feature is designed to do which is prevent having to run the same quest over and over and over. Sure you can still do that but this feature gives an option to do a more broad variety of quests and keep up xp wise with the people farming few quests.

Thats just that ONE quest, which you are right, doing SC as a caster that way is the best, but what about Wizking? the GH and Vale Walkups? Virtually all other quests in the game are still better off doing the Nx8/H/E Routine, it just happens that SC's "normal" routine is Ex10/N/H.

Maybe I should have used a different base example as we all know that casters + firewall makes almost all the undead quests a joke even on elite.

Ehh.. I tossed together a simple spreadsheet to auto-calc the total for people. This spreadsheet assumes the following.
25% First Time Normal
50% First Time Hard
80% First Time Elite
50% From 5 Stacks of Bravery
20% From "Static" Bravery Bonus

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...F1SWc&hl=en_US

[Seikojin]

We had a long discussion about this in Guild last night and are leaning towards the fact the Bonus probably would be used in spurts.

Run the Four Depths Series Quest to build the bonus than Run Delera's, Run four/five random simple quests than run Cult of the Six. Run for Random Quests than Necropolis II.

^this^

I honestly like this, it is meant to encourage running quests in a series based on difficulty. I have no problem with that.

[sirgog]

If you want to preserve a Bravery streak, want to do Tor, but your group isn't up to downing the black dragon on Elite, then just do the Tor quest up to the Gatekeeper on Elite, then run it again on Normal with the dragons.

Likewise if you want to do Into the Deep at level. That Hezrou is nasty above Normal.

ADQ1 is probably the hardest quest in the game to beat on elite at-level. Maybe it should have its base XP upped on Elite.

[MRH]

Not sure where this additional 20% bonus came from. Did they add a static bonus aswell?

Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood
As to the Elite/Hard not being rewarding enough, we got this change coming soon(tm). I'm quoting from Lammania release notes:

* A new bonus has been created that awards players for running quests consecutively on hard and elite difficulties. This Bravery Bonus is a 5% bonus (10% bonus on Elite) that will "stack" up to five times, or until a player runs a quest on Normal difficulty.
* XP Rewards for first time completion on normal, hard, and elite are now 25%, 40% and 80% respectively. So, yeah. Die harder!


So i read it as.....

First run on elite = base + 80% + 10% bravery + optionals etc....
Fifth consecutive elite run = base +50% bravery stack + optionals etc...

[Diib]

I agree that by having the bravery bonus only based on the first time you run a quest, they do not actually end up rewarding doing more elite runs. They reward being able to unlock elite difficulty. The best methods are still 1 elite, 1 hard, and 8 normal, its just that the order has been changed.


The bravery bonus should reward multiple elite runs, not just the first time you run a quest, but EVERY time you run a quest. This way, TRs could challenge themselves more by sticking to elite, and gain a reward for their work with a stacking bonus.


The current system is still more than them adding zero xp to the system, so its better than nothing. However, it really needs to drop the whole "virgin" run aspect if it is truly going to encourage players to run elite more than once.

[BoolZ]

I wasn't sure how I felt about the streak bonus, but seeing the numbers and fact that you gain less than experience than grinding it n8he I really like it.

It's an alternative, nothing more. The fact that I could get 65% of the XP running ennh that I would running it ten, 10!, times is amazing. That's without XP pots, Voice, boat buffs. I can do that then spend the time it would have taken to run that quest 6 more times to run another quest ennh to pick up another 80%+20%+50% bonus on the first run.

And I think that's why mapping out the XP gained/lost based off the bonus as it applies to one quest sells the Bravery Bonus short. The more elite openings the more bonus XP gained.

In the example of Shadow Crypt the traditional way resulted in 85,737. ENNH gives 55,365 leaving it about 30k less. The question becomes can I ennh a quest I wouldn't normally run for 30k xp in the time it'd take to run Shadow Crypt 6 more times on normal. Another question is do I really care if it takes 10~20 extra minutes, but I don't have to run Shadow Crypt 10 times.

Everyone's said TR'ing isn't a challenge it's a grind of running the same handful of quests over and over and over again. This helps eliminate the grind by allowing players to go through more quests by running each one into the ground just a little less.

For that, and it feels weird to say, but I think Turbine's actually on the right path with this.