Reaver's fate

[Hollowgolem]

No, if you wanted to run it with gimps, you should have run Normal difficulty. That's the setting that has always been designed for the most casual of players, who can beat every raid except TOD on it.

Reaver Elite should still be trivial for a group of 6 well-built level 16s. It certainly is still far, far easier than the elite Black Dragon in the Tor.

Is black harder than blue? I've only done white and blue before.

[Rodasch]

I find the white dragon to be harder than the black dragon in tor, but that's just because I was a water savant at the time and didn't have FoM, so the killing was slower and more annoying.

[altrocks]

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Run was tonight on lamannia.
Complete pug of players from a mix of many different servers, I knew no one from the run, I did no gear checks. 1 of them was someone 2 boxing even.
We spent about 10 min buffing/watiing for players to enter.

So 9 min flawless victory run.. Complete joke.

Nothings changed. At least not significantly enough for anyone to notice it.

Only difference was I called in the raidgroup to dps, so less boring AFKing. They had him down to 20% very quickly long before the lights were up so had to stop. Soon the lights were up, I got switch, and he was dead long before I could even fly back. Pretty standard.

Sure he has a bit more hp, more fort.. All that means is solo'ers have more trouble, has no real effect on full groups. Solo'ing raids SHOULD BE DIFFICULT, if not impossible.

Loot was pretty standard, and yes contrary to popular believe, high lvls, evne 20s DO want this loot.. Read the party chat for proof.. Dreamspitters droped and they wished they could get them on live on there high lvls, they are great weapons.

Take it from someone who actaully bothered to run it.. Everyones who thinks this is a big deal is overreacting.

That run was fun. I didn't even notice until this that I managed to not get a single kill. Reaver is still easy to pike!

[sirgog]

Is black harder than blue? I've only done white and blue before.

Normal, white is hardest because of the dispels and icy surfaces. The special mechanics of the blue and black dragons (electrified coins and acid geysers) do so little damage you can ignore them altogether.

Hard, White is almost unchanged. Blue's electrified gold hurts more (noone without Evasion should fight on it, although it is healable still), Black the acid geysers are really dangerous.

Elite, White remains almost the same again, just more HP and more physical damage from the bosses and more breath damage. Blue the electrified gold coins are deadly to non-Evasion toons (although you can probably survive to get back to the barrier if you do so fast). Black is evil - the two last long enough that you'll be wing buffetted around, and the acid geysers will often kill you at level.

Black on Elite is like TOD elite part 1 in that there's wing buffets and traps that are just devastating to be buffeted into. Additionally it's quite hard to time them to get back to the main area you want to fight them.


You should definitely go out of your way to experience these fights on Elite.

[Sarisa]

Last time I ran Tor elite post-u9 (the trap changes), huddled up next to the barrier in Blue is no longer safe from the lightning and force damage. There may still be a safe spot, but nowhere that I could find.

[Missing_Minds]

Normal, white is hardest because of the dispels and icy surfaces.

PoP boots and no slippy.

What I'm curios is if they fixed black's fire giant. That sucker had to have been bugged the last time I took him on. The only way my sorc could do any damage was to crit hit. Other wise, nothing did damage, not even disintegrate or force missiles.

[Rawel_San]

I like the fact that they are making this harder. If you can tank on a level 16 caster with just over 420hp on elite(as I did on my last run)...there is a problem.

You cannot tank any other raid with almost no healing and endless mana with a caster.

I like it.

A caster with 420hp's at lvl 16 is not a run of the mill caster. It says nothing about the difficulty of tanking the
raid for new players.

Pure caster lvl 16 to get 420hp is:

20 base
+64 (16 wizard/sorc)
+160 (30con =20 base+6 item +2 tome +2 rage)
+10 (argo favor)
+30 (gfl)
+20 (minos)
+18 (toughness)
+40 (toughness enhancements)
--------
352

+45 shroud item
--------------
397

That is a fully geared WF caster total that has a T3 shroud item an went all out on toughness enhancements.
And still missing 23+ hp from your total (possibly PM2 and yugo pot or some exceptional con somewhere?)

Either way this is exactly the problem that people are mentioning if you have a 2nd-3rd life toon with all the
gear please stop complaining that a lvl 14!!! raid on elite is too easy for you to tank at level.

That's like Michael Jordan going to a highschool championship and complaining that the players posed no
challenge.

[Ssmooth]

A caster with 420hp's at lvl 16 is not a run of the mill caster. It says nothing about the difficulty of tanking the
raid for new players.

Pure caster lvl 16 to get 420hp is:

20 base
+64 (16 wizard/sorc)
+160 (30con =20 base+6 item +2 tome +2 rage)
+10 (argo favor)
+30 (gfl)
+20 (minos)
+18 (toughness)
+40 (toughness enhancements)
--------
352

+45 shroud item
--------------
397

That is a fully geared WF caster total that has a T3 shroud item an went all out on toughness enhancements.
And still missing 23+ hp from your total (possibly PM2 and yugo pot or some exceptional con somewhere?)

Either way this is exactly the problem that people are mentioning if you have a 2nd-3rd life toon with all the
gear please stop complaining that a lvl 14!!! raid on elite is too easy for you to tank at level.

That's like Michael Jordan going to a highschool championship and complaining that the players posed no
challenge.

human 16 sorc 34pt build

18 base con
+64-16 sorc
+10-argo
+30-gfl
+45-GS hp item
+20-minos
+18-toughness
+176-32 con(18 base+2tome+6item+2ship+2rage+1enh+1lit)
+30-toughness enh
+15-medium guild augment gem of health
+20-draconic vitality
_____
428hp

Not sure what I'm missing...but still missing 20hp.

Either way, the complaint is that this raid doesn't pose a challange to an ungeared lvl 12 sorc, much less a TR'd geared out sorc. If you can solo a raid on elite 4 levels under the level of the raid, there is a issue that needs to be resolved.

[Elaril]

Either way, the complaint is that this raid doesn't pose a challange to an ungeared lvl 12 sorc, much less a TR'd geared out sorc. If you can solo a raid on elite 4 levels under the level of the raid, there is a issue that needs to be resolved.

I'd argue that any changes made to the raid short of limiting/removing the ability to gain a charge, or mind wiping anyone with previous knowledge of the raid, would do nothing to resolve the ease of this raid for a caster. And I'm still not sure why they would even bother.

[Jahmin]

If you can't figure out my stance, you fail at reading comprehension.

The only failure here is for you to clearly articulate your position. First you state that you like that they are making it harder and claim to have tanked with a lvl16 caster with endless spell points and then state that in no other raid can you do this. Well, surprise surprise, no other quest has endless spell points... That said, this completely ignores that both VoD and ToD can be easily tanked by casters using ConOp.

Next, you claim that raids should not be soloable on elite - which is pure opinion and not based in fact at all. You also suggest that a more difficult Reaver will somehow better prepare new players for end-game content, which seems a little contrary to the fact that all end game content has been solo'd...

Next up you claim that Reaver elite can be solo'd by a Sorc14 and then suggest that even a WF Sorc12 could do it. Then you go onto speculate that this is not intended - but unless you are Shade, how would you know what is and is not intended?

Continuing you think elite bosses should do elite damage, but then you do not think comparing a lvl14 elite boss to a lvl20 normal boss is fair despite them doing the excact same damage!

Then you state that a Ftr/Barb16 should have over 500hp, despite being shown how difficult this would be with a first life. Yet you seem perplexed by the logic that if a lvl14 elite raid should challenge lvl20s, why should Water Works elite not also challenge lvl20s? But you even admit that even after the changes the raid will not challenge lvl20s...

Apparently you feel that HoX failures are due to retards, but I am not sure that is germane although I wondered if you included yourself in that statistic? In any event, you seem to feel that normal lvl18 raids should be easier than a lvl14 elite raid? I really cannot tell...

Then you go on a trip down memory lane talking about how much more challenging Reaver was over 4 years ago when it WAS end game yet somehow fail to address that 6 levels and 4.5 years on how that should affect the challenge level of Reaver. Indeed you completely fail to address that these changes would have made the quest all but undoable back upon its release, which is pretty much the point of this thread. Nevertheless you express surprise that the Reaver's hp have been quintupled and think that that is a bit steep.

Once again when confronted with the difficulties a first life lvl16 character would have, you retreat back to the past to talk about the glory days of the raid 4 years ago when it was end game. Using this to dismiss people's opinion NOW is not productive and is one of the reasons you position is so hard to determine.

Next you talk about the lack of Air ele knock down as a nerf, despite it being acknowledged as a bug and the eles having been buffed a number of times over the years. In addition you now reference your claim that a WF Sorc12 could probably solo it as fact and use that to state that because this is suddenly so it must be addressed. However, you do come out and state that you support this change.

Finally you use a Sorc16 TR to justify the HP requirements of first lifers?!?!?

Ultimately I can appreciate that you twice stated that you support the changes, but your evidence for such support is weak, often contradictory to your premise, and your disagreements with people that are agreeing with you call that into question.

Regardless, your assertion that anything elite solo'd 4 levels under is a problem is pure fantasy. VoD elite was solo'd at cap 16 as well.

[Kinerd]

I'm curious...did you play when level cap was 14?

If not, I can't help but think, "You just have no idea." You only have this one perspective of TR'd characters with tomes and GS gear.

When this raid came out, it was hard. Not many knew how to fly, not many could tank properly, we often had to send some one to the 'dead' room to rez 1/2 the party or more just to complete the quest!

I really have no idea what you're responding to. I have one TRed character and one GS item past base, so even if personal criticisms were germane to the discussion yours would be inaccurate. I'm not talking about whether the raid is hard or easy, I'm talking about the experience of a hypothetical first life character: gets all the right buffs, all the right equipment, has all the right skills, is the appropriate level, rolls a 1 and is dead.

That's just an asinine mechanic.

Uhm I had a +2 tome at level 7 on my first life... anD gfl and +6 con are EASILY attainable to someone who knows what they are doing on their characters first life. You can get 80 toughness enhancments on a barb of certain races... not just 40. Also 16 starting con is kinda weak on a barb TANK... a warforged barb tank should be starting with 20 con...other races 18. Also, between race and class, you can get enhancments added into con... my warforged barb example has +5 con just from enhancments.

Also you should note when I say tank I am not reffering to any build thats a barb or ftr... I mean a tank build.

I wasn't counting DDO store items. Smacks of pay-to-win to me. 14 AP for 40 HP is a bad investment and one that will seriously impinge upon the character's DPS viability. It is also technically possible for a barbarian to have 6 Toughness feats at level 16, but that would be counter-productive. With the new Reaver, you can't be a low-DPS barbarian and tank successfully. Regarding starting Con, 28 points only go so far. We can say 18 Con though, that's fine, that bumps the count up to 522. As I said, with max/emp Acid Rain and Ice Storm, a 500 point Disintegrate is still a death sentence. You would prefer a Horoth tank had more than 522 HP, wouldn't you? Same principle.

Also I guess I should note the difference between first life and newbie, IMHO:

First life means only that it is not a TR... if shade rolled up a new barb it would be a first life one... if he TRed axer it would not be a firstlifer. First life does NOT imply inexpierience.

I am not even talking about newbies, because if ELITE is based on newbie "I've never done this" "what's haste" "check out my awesome +1 club of pure good" people, then half the playerbase will get bored and do something other than DDO.

This is entirely my point. A person literally on their first life could be extremely skilled - let's face it, DDO isn't all that difficult a skill game. A person on their 300th character could be extremely unskilled, but have more GS than they know what to do with, twink gear out the ears, etc. Base challenges on skill, and the skilled person will succeed. Base them on resources, and the skilled person will fail while the unskilled person succeeds. What kind of game is that?

oh, and to Mystafyi, there was no asking about if you had epic gear or not, no 'playing 20 questions'.its was a complete pug, and if a gimp build had hit shade's lfm, im sure he would have taken him.

Fair enough. How many level 16 arcanes do you think have 400+ HP? How many level 16 monks with 600+? Level 16 fighters with 700+?

[Jahmin]

Question for Jahmin.

While I agree that a quest should challenge its own level range. Do you have any thoughts on weather or not stormreaver's new power level is too much for an elite level 16 raid? Also any thoughts to the discussion as to who elite should be designed for i.e. everyone vs the experienced (at level)?

ELITE is clearly designed for 'veteran parties seeking a challenge' as stated, NOT merely end game characters. EPIC is the difficulty designed solely for end game chars. I believe it is only reasonable that Elite would apply to at level characters. Now whether at level is the base quest on Normal or the level of the quest on Elite could be debated - and there is evidence either way - but clearly Elite is simply not able to challenge an end game character, UNLESS the quest is already end game to begin with. As such it is extremely disengenuous to expect elite raids to challenge end game characters UNLESS that raid is already end game.

Everyone is all up in arms about Reaver (not just because that is the subject of the thread) but it ignores that all previous raids are also snooze fests. VoN? Launched a year before Reaver and was unchallenging on elite by the time Reaver came out, despite a few buffs/changes. Titan? Probably the worst of the raids: terrible design and pre-quest mechanic combined with boring fight makes Reaver look exciting! Demon Queen? Better than the previous two, possibly more interesting than Reaver as well - still was being solo'd at level (and now solo'd on Epic too )

Fact of the matter is that despite numerous buffs and changes the first four DDO raids are simply poorly designed and no amount of meddling is likely to change that. They were not challenging at level, why would they be challenging once the cap moves past?

No one is complaining (much) about VoN & DQ because they have an end game challenging difficulty: EPIC - whether it works or not is another matter, but it does mean that lvl20s are not worried about being able to 'crush' the raid 8-10 levels on. Of course, these Epic raids have rewards worthy of an end game challenge - and rightfully so: the risk vs reward is balanced. Titan of course is so bad no one simply cares.

That leaves Reaver and the subject of this thread. Yes, I have tried it on Lameia and no it was not challenging at level 20. It was however, pretty brutal at lvl15... I believe it is asinine to expect the same caliber of tank for Reaver and ToD. Sure you can with difficulty get a capable tank NOW at that level, but BEFORE TR, BEFORE GS, BEFORE Yugo/Store pots it would be nearly impossible - is that the bar for where we feel elite should now be? Kortho's elite @ 7, Water Works elite @ lvl8 and then onto STK for lvl10? Does that seem remotely reasonable? Should tanking Sor'jek in elite Tempest be MORE difficult than facing his Liche on normal in SoS five (5) levels later?

Should elite Arraetrikos (lvl 19 quest) be more difficult than his boss Horoth on normal (lvl20 quest)? By both CR and lore Horoth should be far more powerful than Arraetrikos...

Are we going to rebalance ToD once we get Epic lvls? What about current Epics? Is the WF Titan getting True Seeing as well?

I honestly do not believe illiterate Barbarians are asking themselves these questions, because frankly THAT is what is ultimately the issue.

There exists an end game difficulty: Epic - Elite however is for at level parties. I completely agree that the current raids are not challenging, but they never were because of poor design. They are not suddenly made challenging to end game characters FAR after the fact by making them excessively harder for the appropriate level party. The do become opressive to at level parties though.

A party of first life 14s would not be able to complete Reaver elite on lameia; if it goes live, the Reaver will simply become another Chronoscope where it is essentially ignored at level and then run at cap.

Only someone with a serious case of narcisism would brag about how he crashed an elite lvl14 raid with his capped out end game Barbarian Is this what we want? Level to 20, run normal raids, run epics, run elite raids? The progression seems a little off there...

Currently DDO is more or less unique in the MMO world in that you can seriously raid at basically all levels - not merely at end game. Let us work to keep them and to ensure that development time is properly spent on Epic content, not waste on 4 year old content.


What do you feel should be required for each difficulty? I tend to view Normal as for 28point newbs on their first run. This I feel is a roughly appropriate challenge and is not always a sure success. Hard is for 32 pointers on their first life, but with previous experience of the quest, but not necessarily on this specific character. Elite I see as designed to challenge experienced players with veteran characters that have run the quest previously on this character. BUT THIS IS ALL AT LEVEL. I believe that being above level can be used to compensate for various deficiencies lacking from above. Epic remains the end game difficulty designed to challenge those experienced players with elite characters at end game. As an aside, this is why I have disliked the TR mechanic: all it did was encourage lazy play due to needless grind that because of previous gear and knowledge, trivialized content. I do not believe that regular content should be ballanced for an optional mechanic.

[Elaril]

ELITE is clearly designed for 'veteran parties seeking a challenge' as stated, NOT merely end game characters. EPIC is the difficulty designed solely for end game chars. I believe it is only reasonable that Elite would apply to at level characters. Now whether at level is the base quest on Normal or the level of the quest on Elite could be debated - and there is evidence either way - but clearly Elite is simply not able to challenge an end game character, UNLESS the quest is already end game to begin with. As such it is extremely disengenuous to expect elite raids to challenge end game characters UNLESS that raid is already end game.

Everyone is all up in arms about Reaver (not just because that is the subject of the thread) but it ignores that all previous raids are also snooze fests. VoN? Launched a year before Reaver and was unchallenging on elite by the time Reaver came out, despite a few buffs/changes. Titan? Probably the worst of the raids: terrible design and pre-quest mechanic combined with boring fight makes Reaver look exciting! Demon Queen? Better than the previous two, possibly more interesting than Reaver as well - still was being solo'd at level (and now solo'd on Epic too )

Fact of the matter is that despite numerous buffs and changes the first four DDO raids are simply poorly designed and no amount of meddling is likely to change that. They were not challenging at level, why would they be challenging once the cap moves past?

No one is complaining (much) about VoN & DQ because they have an end game challenging difficulty: EPIC - whether it works or not is another matter, but it does mean that lvl20s are not worried about being able to 'crush' the raid 8-10 levels on. Of course, these Epic raids have rewards worthy of an end game challenge - and rightfully so: the risk vs reward is balanced. Titan of course is so bad no one simply cares.

That leaves Reaver and the subject of this thread. Yes, I have tried it on Lameia and no it was not challenging at level 20. It was however, pretty brutal at lvl15... I believe it is asinine to expect the same caliber of tank for Reaver and ToD. Sure you can with difficulty get a capable tank NOW at that level, but BEFORE TR, BEFORE GS, BEFORE Yugo/Store pots it would be nearly impossible - is that the bar for where we feel elite should now be? Kortho's elite @ 7, Water Works elite @ lvl8 and then onto STK for lvl10? Does that seem remotely reasonable? Should tanking Sor'jek in elite Tempest be MORE difficult than facing his Liche on normal in SoS five (5) levels later?

Should elite Arraetrikos (lvl 19 quest) be more difficult than his boss Horoth on normal (lvl20 quest)? By both CR and lore Horoth should be far more powerful than Arraetrikos...

Are we going to rebalance ToD once we get Epic lvls? What about current Epics? Is the WF Titan getting True Seeing as well?

I honestly do not believe illiterate Barbarians are asking themselves these questions, because frankly THAT is what is ultimately the issue.

There exists an end game difficulty: Epic - Elite however is for at level parties. I completely agree that the current raids are not challenging, but they never were because of poor design. They are not suddenly made challenging to end game characters FAR after the fact by making them excessively harder for the appropriate level party. The do become opressive to at level parties though.

A party of first life 14s would not be able to complete Reaver elite on lameia; if it goes live, the Reaver will simply become another Chronoscope where it is essentially ignored at level and then run at cap.

Only someone with a serious case of narcisism would brag about how he crashed an elite lvl14 raid with his capped out end game Barbarian Is this what we want? Level to 20, run normal raids, run epics, run elite raids? The progression seems a little off there...

Currently DDO is more or less unique in the MMO world in that you can seriously raid at basically all levels - not merely at end game. Let us work to keep them and to ensure that development time is properly spent on Epic content, not waste on 4 year old content.


What do you feel should be required for each difficulty? I tend to view Normal as for 28point newbs on their first run. This I feel is a roughly appropriate challenge and is not always a sure success. Hard is for 32 pointers on their first life, but with previous experience of the quest, but not necessarily on this specific character. Elite I see as designed to challenge experienced players with veteran characters that have run the quest previously on this character. BUT THIS IS ALL AT LEVEL. I believe that being above level can be used to compensate for various deficiencies lacking from above. Epic remains the end game difficulty designed to challenge those experienced players with elite characters at end game. As an aside, this is why I have disliked the TR mechanic: all it did was encourage lazy play due to needless grind that because of previous gear and knowledge, trivialized content. I do not believe that regular content should be ballanced for an optional mechanic.

Very well said.

[sirgog]

A party of first life 14s would not be able to complete Reaver elite on lameia; if it goes live, the Reaver will simply become another Chronoscope where it is essentially ignored at level and then run at cap.

Only someone with a serious case of narcisism would brag about how he crashed an elite lvl14 raid with his capped out end game Barbarian Is this what we want? Level to 20, run normal raids, run epics, run elite raids? The progression seems a little off there...

Currently DDO is more or less unique in the MMO world in that you can seriously raid at basically all levels - not merely at end game. Let us work to keep them and to ensure that development time is properly spent on Epic content, not waste on 4 year old content.


What do you feel should be required for each difficulty? I tend to view Normal as for 28point newbs on their first run. This I feel is a roughly appropriate challenge and is not always a sure success. Hard is for 32 pointers on their first life, but with previous experience of the quest, but not necessarily on this specific character. Elite I see as designed to challenge experienced players with veteran characters that have run the quest previously on this character. BUT THIS IS ALL AT LEVEL. I believe that being above level can be used to compensate for various deficiencies lacking from above. Epic remains the end game difficulty designed to challenge those experienced players with elite characters at end game. As an aside, this is why I have disliked the TR mechanic: all it did was encourage lazy play due to needless grind that because of previous gear and knowledge, trivialized content. I do not believe that regular content should be ballanced for an optional mechanic.

A party of 14th level characters is two levels underlevel for Elite Reaver. But that's irrelevant, they'll roflstomp the Lamannia version if they understand the raid mechanics.

The only real difference to Live - on the U11 version, someone will probably be sent to the resurrection lever, to get anyone that rolled a 1, 2, 3 or 4 on a Disintegrate, and anyone that copped an Acid Rain at a bad time.

[TheDjinnFor]

A caster with 420hp's at lvl 16 is not a run of the mill caster. It says nothing about the difficulty of tanking the raid for new players.

Since when can an entirely new player ever do elite at level for most (if not all) quests? Is elite VoD a simple matter for a smattering of completely new level 20s to beat, even if they get a caster to tank or a bard to heal? After all, elite vod is a level 20 raid...

Elite has never been for 'new' players. I can do elite now at-level thanks to experience and hand-me-downs/funding from my higher-leveled toons... which is traditionally not the case for new players.

A group of 12 well-geared and experienced 16 players can do elite reaver with no real trouble, post-change. Same for VoD pre-change.

[Hollowgolem]

I have a friend who recently started playing and only just now got his first level-16 character. Should the raid be scaled for him? He's still wearing the Gorget from Relic as his Heavy Fort item.

[Ssmooth]

The only failure here is for you to clearly articulate your position. First you state that you like that they are making it harder and claim to have tanked with a lvl16 caster with endless spell points and then state that in no other raid can you do this. Well, surprise surprise, no other quest has endless spell points... That said, this completely ignores that both VoD and ToD can be easily tanked by casters using ConOp.


Next, you claim that raids should not be soloable on elite - which is pure opinion and not based in fact at all. You also suggest that a more difficult Reaver will somehow better prepare new players for end-game content, which seems a little contrary to the fact that all end game content has been solo'd...

Next up you claim that Reaver elite can be solo'd by a Sorc14 and then suggest that even a WF Sorc12 could do it. Then you go onto speculate that this is not intended - but unless you are Shade, how would you know what is and is not intended?

Continuing you think elite bosses should do elite damage, but then you do not think comparing a lvl14 elite boss to a lvl20 normal boss is fair despite them doing the excact same damage!

Then you state that a Ftr/Barb16 should have over 500hp, despite being shown how difficult this would be with a first life. Yet you seem perplexed by the logic that if a lvl14 elite raid should challenge lvl20s, why should Water Works elite not also challenge lvl20s? But you even admit that even after the changes the raid will not challenge lvl20s...

Apparently you feel that HoX failures are due to retards, but I am not sure that is germane although I wondered if you included yourself in that statistic? In any event, you seem to feel that normal lvl18 raids should be easier than a lvl14 elite raid? I really cannot tell...

Then you go on a trip down memory lane talking about how much more challenging Reaver was over 4 years ago when it WAS end game yet somehow fail to address that 6 levels and 4.5 years on how that should affect the challenge level of Reaver. Indeed you completely fail to address that these changes would have made the quest all but undoable back upon its release, which is pretty much the point of this thread. Nevertheless you express surprise that the Reaver's hp have been quintupled and think that that is a bit steep.

Once again when confronted with the difficulties a first life lvl16 character would have, you retreat back to the past to talk about the glory days of the raid 4 years ago when it was end game. Using this to dismiss people's opinion NOW is not productive and is one of the reasons you position is so hard to determine.

Next you talk about the lack of Air ele knock down as a nerf, despite it being acknowledged as a bug and the eles having been buffed a number of times over the years. In addition you now reference your claim that a WF Sorc12 could probably solo it as fact and use that to state that because this is suddenly so it must be addressed. However, you do come out and state that you support this change.

Finally you use a Sorc16 TR to justify the HP requirements of first lifers?!?!?

Ultimately I can appreciate that you twice stated that you support the changes, but your evidence for such support is weak, often contradictory to your premise, and your disagreements with people that are agreeing with you call that into question.

Regardless, your assertion that anything elite solo'd 4 levels under is a problem is pure fantasy. VoD elite was solo'd at cap 16 as well.

VoD and ToD can be EASILY tanked by a caster huh? Wow.

By saying that VoD and ToD were solo's on elite at level 16 is rather irrelevant. They were solo'd by what...1-2 players on all combined servers? Hardly everyday players and tons of time, effort and resourced were used.

Raids are intended to be solo'd? A clear indication that this is not so: It's a raid. There are quests intended to be solo'd...you can only open these quests on solo.

I never compared quest difficulty of quests of different levels, ie: 14 vs 18.

When does logic state that WW should challange level 20's and when did I support this?

Back when this quest was released, could you run Reaver on elite with a full group of 16's? No. Even though I was surprised at the size of the hp increase, I still support that increase.

I support this change because if any person with previous experience in a raid can then roll up any min/max self healing toon and solo said raid on elite 4 levels beneath the raid, it should be changed. Those that solo'd elite raids such as VoD and HoX at level cap 16 had exceptional gear, experience and resources and are among the top 1% of exceptional players that play this game.

I broke down a 16 sorc hp in response to some one else trying to figure how they are above 400 and did not compare them to any other class or set standards for class hp.

Clear enough?

[Thorzian]

it's a level 14 raid, this is ********.

this

[sirgog]

Are players so terrible these days that they can't recover from losing their tank to a Disintegrate in Reaver?

[leglisse]

solution to reavers new powers:

Get the 9 pikers that arenormaly afk in the corner to beat giant till he is preped, keep tanking till the orbs are moving. When the reaver desintegrates somone just replace it, u still have 9 pikers.

Not much else to say. It shouldnt be harder, maybe just will require people to get a strategy like th above one (new to reaver i know) but nothing otherworldy

Now to everyone complainign ZOMG how will i gear new toons: Run in normal hard and u have about 99.999999% of chance of geting same loot than elite, it will be challenging for ur level and u will get ur lootz