Reaver's fate

[Tinco]

oh my god. my rogue's heart just broke. i suppose he will survive. but now he really will have to admit arcanes do more dps than him

I agree. Giving >50% fort out like candy on hard/elite is probably the worst change ever done to melee in general and rogues (and barbs to a lesser extend) in particular and I will seriously put the accountability of the design team in question if this change goes through; even more if the damage diminishing factors for casters do not increase substantially for higher difficulties.

ok, now something should probably be noticed here. its ELITE reavers. yeah, i know thats all what we are used to, but ELITE reavers now actually has a meaning. i mean, you dont see the everyday ELITE TOD lfms going up. why? because elite horoth is a scary thought to the normal pug. why can't all raid bosses be truly feared? they are supposed to be these crazy strong guys that its supposed to be a giant pain to defeat. why is everyone so sad that elite is a challenge? it should be, its the entire point of it.

Reaver's Fate elite is a level 16 equivalent raid quest with accessibility, loot and XP tailored towards this level and it should be a major challenge at level - that's all. Besides there is the point that huge damage and HP do not miraculously make this raid any more interesting, just even more annoying, equip-dependent and probably resource-heavy for healers which is just the cheapest possible way to generate 'challenging content' and thus revenue via SP pots and such.

[Havok.cry]

I too feel bad for the rogues... if turbine wanted to be fair they would make fort apply to spells too

[TheDjinnFor]

Do you know what those unspecified utility buffs are?

Yup. Unless you want to call turbine a liar, they spelled it out quite clearly.

True Seeing, some Metamagic feats, and some amount of fortification versus critical hits. They have also been given extra hit points and physical damage output.

If the Reaver hit 500HP+ disintegrates back in MOD4 when the Reaver came out, it would have been a huge raid disaster.

This is only on elite. Weaklings can resign themselves to normal.

In other news, 75% fort is pretty stupid...

[Elaril]

Yup. Unless you want to call turbine a liar, they spelled it out quite clearly.





This is only on elite. Weaklings can resign themselves to normal.

In other news, 75% fort is pretty stupid...

In my opinion, any fort on mobs, with the exception of undead and mobs with other innate fort bonuses, is less than an intelligent way to go. People like big numbers.

[Kmnh]

I'm all for elite reaver disintegrating the tanks. Most parties doing elite reaver's fate on live would get smoked by the dragons on elite tor, and run away crying from elite crucible - the raid is supposed to be harder than the flagging quests

[Glenalth]

I'm all for elite reaver disintegrating the tanks. Most parties doing elite reaver's fate on live would get smoked by the dragons on elite tor, and run away crying from elite crucible - the raid is supposed to be harder than the flagging quests

Excellent point.

I'm sure there is still some balancing that will need to be done, but overall I like this change to hard & elite raids.

[Jahmin]

If the Reaver hit 500HP+ disintegrates back in MOD4 when the Reaver came out, it would have been a huge raid disaster.

Yes the Reaver is a cakewalk, but that's because SIX levels have been added to the game. Beefing a raid up because it is a cakewalk for 20s is stupid

You can't be serious.....

This kind of argument is rediculous. This was end-game. This was fun to figure out and the ele's knock-down ablility was an obstacle that could cause a wipe with poor luck(Ele's spawn on tank with first globe, cleric's can't stand up to heal, die, followed by quickly by the rest of the party).

Are you being serious? Because he is AGREEING with every one of your other posts... Did you flip your opinion and forget to edit your previous ones?

The Reaver was 'end-game' FOUR AND A HALF (4.5) _YEARS_ AGO. Wasting development time and resources on making a lvl14 Raid challenge lvl 20 characters is stupid and more pointedly utterly futile. Not to mention that it will completely screw over any at level party.

During Mod4 it was IMPOSSIBLE for a character to have 500HP; even today with TRs having 500hp at 16 is not trivial, but at least doable.

A level16 Raid, despite what illiterate Barbs will exclaim, is NOT end game. If Turbine wants to raise the level and award appropriate lvl20 odd rewards, then fair enough - but since they have NOT, then it is an extreme poor non-solution to the non-problem of lower level content not challenging capped chars


If Turbine was held accountable for lying to us, and actually would release the Epic versions of content since they ceased providing it, this would simply not be an issue. They HAVE Epic Gianthold - we know because we have played it on both Lamania AND _live_. Sure it had is bugs, but nothing worse than they rest of the unpolished content they have been dumping upon us lately.

That said, perhaps this explains certain Barbarian egos: they simply think that lvl16 is end game and are all pleased with themselves for trouncing it easily!

[TDarkchylde]

^ this

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jahmin again."

I'll reserve judgement on whether they've messed this up or not until I've run through it with an at-level group, but if they wanted to make Reaver challenging to Level 20 groups, they had a solution partially done.

Finish. Epic. Gianthold. But don't make it impossible for at-level groups to complete because 0.5% of the player base is so kitted out that Elite ToD is a cakewalk and Elite Reaver is as difficult as The Grotto to them.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't care about the increased HP so much - it's not like the Reaver throws Inferno. It's the damage output that's getting under my skin. I don't feel like having to look for two Horoth tanks for a Level 16 raid.

[Faent]

For the most part, I like the change. It won't cause too many problems. Not many folks run it at level anyways, unless they're on the TR train, and they won't be bothered much by this. (Although I usually shortman this quest on N/H/E at-level, and I can see that changing given the nice Disintegrate.)

I'd take away the Reaver's Empower and just give him Maximize. That seems fair. It is idiotic for him to be casting a Horoth level Disintegrate that basically spells guaranteed death for anyone running at level (16) on Elite.

[Jahmin]

ok, now something should probably be noticed here. its ELITE reavers. yeah, i know thats all what we are used to, but ELITE reavers now actually has a meaning. i mean, you dont see the everyday ELITE TOD lfms going up. why? because elite horoth is a scary thought to the normal pug. why can't all raid bosses be truly feared? they are supposed to be these crazy strong guys that its supposed to be a giant pain to defeat. why is everyone so sad that elite is a challenge? it should be, its the entire point of it.

You are absolutely correct. I am sure it would have nothing to do with the fact that a lvl20 char is 4 levels MORE than eReaver, whereas s/he is 2 levels LESS than eToD


Ultimately, everyone that argues that ELITE should challenge 20s, needs to address the fact that ELITE ranges in difficulty from lvl3 to (currently) lvl22. Arguing that that range of quest levels should challenge a capped char is ludacris and folly.

People are up in arms that the bravery bonus is 'ViP' only (it is not) but it will be irrelevant since people will only do elite for favour at lvl20

Elite /= Epic
Even Barbs should be able to get this point

[Algulcz]

There are lots of post saying that 500dmg disintegrate is to much, but I also want to say that he casts it only few times. I just tested it and he casted it 5x during whole quest before bomb killed me. There is no need to panic.

[littlewing]

reading the thread, im going to say Dingal and everyone who agrees with him, seem to know whats up.

everyone else is brain dead, and that includes the devs

[Theolin]

I'll add my 2cp worth

I was just running in 2 different pugs in GH
fighters, barbs, rogues, wizz/sorc .... and all of them had between 130 - 180 hps at level 14 & 15 ... this is the new guys that are out there,

then I ran another with some "old timers"
HPs were 288 to 430 & quest took about half as long, it was the little things like buffs were actually handed out to everyone, attack the casters first, you know all the things every one complains about.

There is a huge abyss of difference between the two groups

Now who is going to be running this raid?

[Ssmooth]

You think this will challenge level 20's on elite??

LMAO!!

Reaver doesn't challenge level 14 characters any more and stopped being a challange of any sort once they nerfed air ele knockdown. If it's soloable by a lvl 12 wf sorc, there is an issue that needs to be adressed.

They are changing some raid bosses that needed a buff...I agree with this change.

[Jahmin]

Reaver doesn't challenge level 14 characters any more and stopped being a challange of any sort once they nerfed air ele knockdown. If it's soloable by a lvl 12 wf sorc, there is an issue that needs to be adressed.

They are changing some raid bosses that needed a buff...I agree with this change.

I am unable to figure out what you are actually arguing as your posts waffle worst than breakfast

Every non-Barbarian that is not a Dev releases that no matter what changes they make, this raid is NOT going to be end game and it is NOT going to challenge capped chars. Those same people also know what nerf actually means, and realize it does not apply to something that is bugged and not WAI - that said, is it any surprise Turbine fraked it up when needlessly mucking aroud the eles AGAIN?

The core design of the raid is the base issue, not that it is not challenging for lvl20s 4.5 years after release. Merely increasing Boss HP, DPS & Fort is NOT suddenly going to challenge lvl20s, and therefore is a flawed change to make. What it will do is punish those that are correctly trying to run at the level of the raid.

Hard difficulty is even recommended for experienced soloers; Elite difficulty is recommended for veteran parties seeking a challenge - NOT capped chars as some seem to think. The only place level is even dealt with is in the quest XP log, and the tool tip that indicates that a party of like level to the quest should have a chance at succeeding.

What someone 4+ years on can do in a quest is irrelevant. Should we revisit WW, STK, etc as well? I just recently finished for favour and they were not very challenging. Perhaps we should buff them too. The STK guardian died to a single BB hit - I did not even need to kite him! Clearly this was an unacceptable challenge for a lvl20 char...

EPIC is the challenge difficulty for lvl 20s. Turbine has Epic Gianthold. Therein lies the obvious solution

Redoing quests to balance them for 'end game' is not only stupid but speaks to the extreme level of incompetence permeating the Dev team. Epic level challenges for non-epic rewards is simply backasswards. Are we going to rebalance everything AGAIN when the lvl cap finally increases?

The issue is not just Reaver, although that is the specific topic of this thread, but all quests that are getting adjusted. ToD was challenging TWO (2) YEARS ago - significantly less so now. Co6 was end game 6 years ago in beta - should it still be expected to provide that same level of challenge today?

Should every quest have an Epic difficulty? Ideally I suppose so, but I can accept that that would be a lot of work potentially better spent else where. Nevertheless had Turbine kept its word and released Epic difficult along with the new content this would simply be a non-issue as there would be PLENTY of challenge for lvl20s across a range of content/locals.

In any event, arguing for NON end-game quests to be challenging end-game is folly and should be blindingly obvious to a literate individual.

[Havok.cry]

Question for Jahmin.

While I agree that a quest should challenge its own level range. Do you have any thoughts on weather or not stormreaver's new power level is too much for an elite level 16 raid? Also any thoughts to the discussion as to who elite should be designed for i.e. everyone vs the experienced (at level)?

[Xionanx]

So no one liked my idea of making ramps up to the balls and requiring party members to activate them, rather then standing around doing nothing while the reaver randomly activates?

I would make "Solo'ing" it a challenge, and would add "Some" challenge to a group run in that if you get caught on a ramp (going up from middle of the room) during a gravity switch, your gonna get impaled.

No more standing in the safety corner for 8 minutes while one guy dances around in front of the reaver and a healer spams heals on him/her with limitless SP.

[Havok.cry]

So no one liked my idea of making ramps up to the balls and requiring party members to activate them, rather then standing around doing nothing while the reaver randomly activates?

I would make "Solo'ing" it a challenge, and would add "Some" challenge to a group run in that if you get caught on a ramp (going up from middle of the room) during a gravity switch, your gonna get impaled.

No more standing in the safety corner for 8 minutes while one guy dances around in front of the reaver and a healer spams heals on him/her with limitless SP.

I liked it. Make the ramps trapped with spikes, blades, grease/ice, fire, acid, poisons, and so on... about 10 traps per ramp. Make the air elementals spawn along the ramps, giants spawn on the ground (like room 1 of tor... only tougher and harder hitting, and add in stone and storm giants to the spawns), and at the top of each ramp have a rolling ball roll down the ramp and reset the traps with new trap panels... along with smashing people like in undermine.

[Missing_Minds]

I agree. Giving >50% fort out like candy on hard/elite is probably the worst change ever done to melee in general and rogues (and barbs to a lesser extend) in particular and I will seriously put the accountability of the design team in question if this change goes through; even more if the damage diminishing factors for casters do not increase substantially for higher difficulties.

Raid bosses having fortification? THE HORROR!

[azrael4h]

So no one liked my idea of making ramps up to the balls and requiring party members to activate them, rather then standing around doing nothing while the reaver randomly activates?

I would make "Solo'ing" it a challenge, and would add "Some" challenge to a group run in that if you get caught on a ramp (going up from middle of the room) during a gravity switch, your gonna get impaled.

No more standing in the safety corner for 8 minutes while one guy dances around in front of the reaver and a healer spams heals on him/her with limitless SP.

I had a similar idea, except instead of merely activating the balls, adding an entire VoN5-esque dungeon behind the Reaver. A Tank will have to hold him in place, while the rest try to navigate the dungeon, activate the balls, open the barrier, open the penalty box (and yes, I'd leave it), and then deal with the puzzle. All with respawning air eles that actually knock you down in the main entry way where the Reaver must be kept (otherwise, he'll reset the machine on you), and respawning critters of various types scattered through the dungeon. And he breaks aggro each ball that's activated, to go reset them, forcing the tank to regain it somehow. You wouldn't actually need to kill him, just activate the machine, then do the puzzle.

Of course why you're activating the machine in order to deactivate it is another story...

The current design leaves much to be desired.