Reaver's fate

[thewalex]

you didnt read what i wrote.... i said it should challenge levl 16s... you know at level... never said it should callenge 20s... then i did math based on level 16s... please read something before telling someone they are wrong.

I think though, the definitions of "at level" differ between you and dengal. Based on your posts, I would assume your definition of "at level 16" means a multi TR characters with twinked gear at level 16 (which in my opinion are on par or probably better equipped than the average level 20 first life toon), whereas dingal probably refers to "at level 16" meaning a 32 point build with some raid gear and beneficial named items, but certainly not a finalized inventory.

[Havok.cry]

My bad I think I quoted the wrong post honestly.

Lol np

[Havok.cry]

I think though, the definitions of "at level" differ between you and dengal. Based on your posts, I would assume your definition of "at level 16" means a multi TR characters with twinked gear at level 16 (which in my opinion are on par or probably better equipped than the average level 20 first life toon), whereas dingal probably refers to "at level 16" meaning a 32 point build with some raid gear and beneficial named items, but certainly not a finalized inventory.

You are correct in your assumption of my definition of at level... but only for elite... less than elite and I would agree with him.

[Kinerd]

Oh yes, can't forget the fact that the Reaver also grants infinite SP.

Do you think casters are going to keep standing in front of the Stormreaver to get the buff if there's a chance he will hit them for 500 damage?

It's ELITE....why should it be a walk in the park? At level 16, a fighter/barb should have over 500hp. You shouldn't be able to tank with a drow sorc...or solo it at level 12 with a wf sorc...

This illustrates the fundamental problem with this change. A new player, no matter how skilled, is not going to have the gear to have 500 HP at level 16 without gimping their character. Is that the hallmark of good design?

It should keep the party awake to fill gaps, step in holes in the line and generally be active.

If that's what you want, Reaver's has to be qualitatively redesigned. The Reaver could do 9001 point on a failed save Disintegrates and most of the raid group would still do nothing.

[Havok.cry]

This illustrates the fundamental problem with this change. A new player, no matter how skilled, is not going to have the gear to have 500 HP at level 16 without gimping their character. Is that the hallmark of good design?If that's what you want, Reaver's has to be qualitatively redesigned. The Reaver could do 9001 point on a failed save Disintegrates and most of the raid group would still do nothing.

1. Elite should not be designed around the weakest, the newest, or the gimpest, if you actually know what your doing, even on a first life character, you CAN break 600 hp on a tank. 500 damage will not one shot that. a healer or 2 CAN recover the tank from that. And if your not a tank, maybe you shouldn't be tanking.

2. I was the first in this thread to suggest the trash mobs spawns be redesigned to be more like the tor's first room... that would keep the party alot more active.

[sirgog]

From another thread:

Reaver Elite on Live - ~35k HP, 0 Fort

Reaver Elite on Lama - ~180k HP, ~81% Fort (probably 80 or 85, might be 75)


Testing method, etc: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=98 . Please note that there is the possibility of significant errors in this data.

Edit - also note that the Reaver disappears at ~3% HP, rather than at 0 HP.

[Ssmooth]

From another thread:

Reaver Elite on Live - ~35k HP, 0 Fort

Reaver Elite on Lama - ~180k HP, ~81% Fort (probably 80 or 85, might be 75)


Testing method, etc: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=98 . Please note that there is the possibility of significant errors in this data.

180k? That's over 5x current hp... That's a bit steep. But hey, I'll be looking forward to 'paying attention' in there now

[Havok.cry]

From another thread:

Reaver Elite on Live - ~35k HP, 0 Fort

Reaver Elite on Lama - ~180k HP, ~81% Fort (probably 80 or 85, might be 75)


Testing method, etc: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=98 . Please note that there is the possibility of significant errors in this data.

Hey thanks for sharing that

[Kinerd]

1. Elite should not be designed around the weakest, the newest, or the gimpest, if you actually know what your doing, even on a first life character, you CAN break 600 hp on a tank. 500 damage will not one shot that. a healer or 2 CAN recover the tank from that. And if your not a tank, maybe you shouldn't be tanking.

Let's do a HP breakdown for a first life level 16 character:

16 * 12 = 192
20 heroic durability
10 argonnessen favor
30 greater false life item
48 6 con item
18 toughness
20 toughness item
40 toughness enhancements
48 16 starting Con
48 Greater Rage
16 Hardy Rage
16 Rage spell
=
506

You're not going to have any +2 tomes, green steel HP items, yugo pots, past lives, exceptionals, epics. Where else are you getting HP? I would even say that GFL and a +6 Con item are a stretch on a first-lifer level 16. With maximized/empowered Acid Rains and Ice Storms running around, 500 disintegrate is almost a sure death.

2. I was the first in this thread to suggest the trash mobs spawns be redesigned to be more like the tor's first room... that would keep the party alot more active.

I don't see how. Give everyone fire resist and what new threat would giants/fire giants pose? The quest has to be fundamentally redesigned for 12 people to be seriously involved.

[Ssmooth]

Let's do a HP breakdown for a first life level 16 character:

16 * 12 = 192
20 heroic durability
10 argonnessen favor
30 greater false life item
48 6 con item
18 toughness
20 toughness item
40 toughness enhancements
48 16 starting Con
48 Greater Rage
16 Hardy Rage
16 Rage spell
=
506

You're not going to have any +2 tomes, green steel HP items, yugo pots, past lives, exceptionals, epics. Where else are you getting HP? I would even say that GFL and a +6 Con item are a stretch on a first-lifer level 16. With maximized/empowered Acid Rains and Ice Storms running around, 500 disintegrate is almost a sure death.I don't see how. Give everyone fire resist and what new threat would giants/fire giants pose? The quest has to be fundamentally redesigned for 12 people to be seriously involved.

I'm curious...did you play when level cap was 14?

If not, I can't help but think, "You just have no idea." You only have this one perspective of TR'd characters with tomes and GS gear.

When this raid came out, it was hard. Not many knew how to fly, not many could tank properly, we often had to send some one to the 'dead' room to rez 1/2 the party or more just to complete the quest!

[Havok.cry]

Let's do a HP breakdown for a first life level 16 character:

16 * 12 = 192
20 heroic durability
10 argonnessen favor
30 greater false life item
48 6 con item
18 toughness
20 toughness item
40 toughness enhancements
48 16 starting Con
48 Greater Rage
16 Hardy Rage
16 Rage spell
=
506

You're not going to have any +2 tomes, green steel HP items, yugo pots, past lives, exceptionals, epics. Where else are you getting HP? I would even say that GFL and a +6 Con item are a stretch on a first-lifer level 16. With maximized/empowered Acid Rains and Ice Storms running around, 500 disintegrate is almost a sure death.I don't see how. Give everyone fire resist and what new threat would giants/fire giants pose? The quest has to be fundamentally redesigned for 12 people to be seriously involved.

Uhm I had a +2 tome at level 7 on my first life... anD gfl and +6 con are EASILY attainable to someone who knows what they are doing on their characters first life. Also, add in ship buffs. You can get 80 toughness enhancments on a barb of certain races... not just 40. Also 16 starting con is kinda weak on a barb TANK... a warforged barb tank should be starting with 20 con...other races 18. Also, between race and class, you can get enhancments added into con... my warforged barb example has +5 con just from enhancments.

Also you should note when I say tank I am not reffering to any build thats a barb or ftr... I mean a tank build.

[ainmosni]

Also 16 starting con is kinda weak on a barb TANK... \

he's assuming you go 18 str 16 con on a human im guessing, which isnt an unreasonable assumption.

from my experience a first life ANYTHING is going to put points in dex (most people new to the game have a flawed idea of the importance of armor class)

[Havok.cry]

Also I guess I should note the difference between first life and newbie, IMHO:

First life means only that it is not a TR... if shade rolled up a new barb it would be a first life one... if he TRed axer it would not be a firstlifer. First life does NOT imply inexpierience.

I am not even talking about newbies, because if ELITE is based on newbie "I've never done this" "what's haste" "check out my awesome +1 club of pure good" people, then half the playerbase will get bored and do something other than DDO.

[ainmosni]

What is this hoard of which you speak?

Developer Eladrin wants no weaklings in his hoard.

[Jahmin]

I can understand buffing the Abbot...that is an end game raid.

No it is not

Reaver was never an end game raid.

Yes it was

[DragonTroy]

From another thread:

Reaver Elite on Live - ~35k HP, 0 Fort

Reaver Elite on Lama - ~180k HP, ~81% Fort (probably 80 or 85, might be 75)


Testing method, etc: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=98 . Please note that there is the possibility of significant errors in this data.

oh my god. my rogue's heart just broke. i suppose he will survive. but now he really will have to admit arcanes do more dps than him

ok, now something should probably be noticed here. its ELITE reavers. yeah, i know thats all what we are used to, but ELITE reavers now actually has a meaning. i mean, you dont see the everyday ELITE TOD lfms going up. why? because elite horoth is a scary thought to the normal pug. why can't all raid bosses be truly feared? they are supposed to be these crazy strong guys that its supposed to be a giant pain to defeat. why is everyone so sad that elite is a challenge? it should be, its the entire point of it.

we have all become used to how easy elite reavers is. now it wont be. good! make the people that arent wanting a challenge do normal, im sure he isnt nearly as difficult.

its called elite for a reason

[Jahmin]

umm why exactly ? The game pretty clearly always intended raids to challenge high level players. Hundreds of thousands of players are lvl20 now.. So thats the new high lvl. Cap was 14 when reaver came out, so there just fixing that flaw now that the cap is up.

Seems to me that 99% of reaver on elite difficulty get run with at least a few level20s in the group. Why should it be the boring 1 player solo the raid while 11 go afk snoozefest is currently is on elite?

The lower lvl reaver lfms i see are almost always for normal/hard.

I doubt he has max/emp on normal, so if you wanan run it easily at lvl14.. There you go, I'd be willing to bet many lvl14s will continue to solo this raid on at least normal like they have been for years. It's not like theres any special loot on hard/elite here. Just like 2% higher droprate no one really notices.

The fact elite has been the defacto default difficulty for high lvls here for years has always been a major issue, not an intended design. The intention is always for most players to run raids on normal, and elite be limited to those looking for an elite challenge.

I love reading all this fiction; nearly as good as Kargon

[Jahmin]

Hint to the developers: stop screwing with old raids that only newer players actually want things from. The only truly useful thing to a player who has been playing this game for a while from this raid given all the other gear available is the boots. All that happens here is newer players get screwed.

^ this

[Elaril]

oh my god. my rogue's heart just broke. i suppose he will survive. but now he really will have to admit arcanes do more dps than him

ok, now something should probably be noticed here. its ELITE reavers. yeah, i know thats all what we are used to, but ELITE reavers now actually has a meaning. i mean, you dont see the everyday ELITE TOD lfms going up. why? because elite horoth is a scary thought to the normal pug. why can't all raid bosses be truly feared? they are supposed to be these crazy strong guys that its supposed to be a giant pain to defeat. why is everyone so sad that elite is a challenge? it should be, its the entire point of it.

we have all become used to how easy elite reavers is. now it wont be. good! make the people that arent wanting a challenge do normal, im sure he isnt nearly as difficult.

its called elite for a reason

Guess what? Reaver will still be able to be soloed by arcane and divine casters at level without much effort other than dodging disintigrates. This just gives people less incentive to bring melees along.

[Syllph]

Thank you Turbine. I was getting bored with pikers fate. Let's face it: we piked; it was easy. Thank you for making it a raid again.