Reaver's fate

[Seikojin]

As much as I think raids on elite should be scaled to their difficulty, I think the way something like Chrono does it is fine. It scales in relation to both quest level and player level.

I think at level, a raid should be a serious challenge for the 12 in it. I don't think a raid that is level 12 should be as challenging for a party of capped 20's as it should be for geared lvl 12's. But having lvl 20's in the same raid with lvl 12s should be harder than it would be if it was all lvl 12's.

For elite chrono, say if you have 12 geared lvl 20's, it should be a fairly easy challenge, except with some boss fights being harder. Cr's relative to the partys level makeup.

Another example, I think TS on elite should be a very hard challenge for lvl 12's geared to lvl 12 awesomeness. But with lvl 20's, it should be pretty easy. The CR's of the mobs should scale up, maybe bring in some different tactics, but since it is a lower end raid, it shouldn't be nearly the challenge as it would be for a lvl 16 raid for the same group.

[Gkar]

What makes you think it won't be completable?

We were completing shroud, elite, complete with utter lag fest at cap of 16 without greensteel.

We were doing the exact same to in Hound and VoD.

If it raises the bar a bit, so be it. It STILL will be completed. So you may lose one or three people now making it a snooze fest vs. a snore fest.

People are so focused on the Reaver, how about the elementals? Did they get touched at all?

If its designed to challenge L20s, as some have suggested, an average at level pug will have extreme difficulty completing.

[Elaril]

We were completing shroud, elite, complete with utter lag fest at cap of 16 without greensteel.

We were doing the exact same to in Hound and VoD.

I always see these, particularly Shroud, used as examples, but I don't know if I agree with them. The difference then was the dedication of the playerbase. There was a much higher hardcore to actual player ratio than there is currently.

[Elaril]

I disagree here. I think it will benefit newer players by better preparing them to handle end-game content. It'll be kind of a wake-up call for some. Raids shouldn't be steam rolled or solo'd on elite.

As far as the gear goes, yes, pretty much just the boots...but the occational +3 tome won't be turned away

Agree to disagree then. While I'd like to see the quaility of player in the actual higher level raids go up, I think raids should be designed to be completed at level, not by 20's.

[Grizzt14]

Personal opinion here, but even on elite, Reaver's Fate is only a level 16 quest, and while it is regularly run for the raid loot, it should be designed and scaled to challenge a level 16 or so party that would be running it at level, not capped 20 characters potentially with epic gear and such.

[Ssmooth]

Agree to disagree then. While I'd like to see the quaility of player in the actual higher level raids go up, I think raids should be designed to be completed at level, not by 20's.

Consider this: Currently, this raid can be solo'd on elite by a level 14 sorc....heck, I bet a level 12 wf sorc could solo it on elite if he/she was flagged. No gear would be required except for a minos and spell components.

I don't think this was intended.

IMO, a raid at level should be difficult...with these changes it will be a little more difficult, but not impossible by any means. Heck, I'm betting once peeps get used to the changes, it'll be the same snooze fest it is now with a little addtional boss-beating.

[Missing_Minds]

I always see these, particularly Shroud, used as examples, but I don't know if I agree with them. The difference then was the dedication of the playerbase. There was a much higher hardcore to actual player ratio than there is currently.

Fine, when cap was 14, we were doing reaver on elite. Happy?

Should a quest be challenging at level? Yes. Should a lvl 14 quest be challenging to a lvl 20 party? No.

Maybe there was a higher hardcore, but that is anecdotal and no data to actually back it up.

Give players a month and things will be back to status quo. This is how things happen time and time again. It starts with "OMG theyz make itz harder!", then a month later people are doing it every 3 days not spending much resources at all. The player base is going to addapt regardless.

[Hollowgolem]

As has already been mentioned, they could just adapt by not doing it, the way they did to Titan.

[B0ltdrag0n]

They probably overcompensated HP a bit too much, but I will agree that some change should have been added. Hell if they would have just made Giants spawn to give the pikers something to do it might have been enough to at least make it interesting.

Wouldn't the complaint of 'autodeath' be resolved if they removed empower? Then a 500 damage Disintegrate would only be around 350-400 which is doable for ANY tank at level 16 and would mean the healer would have to be on his toes instead of the 500 insta kills?

[joaofalcao]

it's a level 14 raid, this is ********.

Agreed 100%.


Horoth has a desintegrate of 500dmg on a failed save. On a lvl 20 raid. A lvl 14h raid should be scaled accordingly (or lvl 16 whatever).

[TheDjinnFor]

Horoth has a desintegrate of 500dmg on a failed save. On a lvl 20 raid. A lvl 14h raid should be scaled accordingly (or lvl 16 whatever).

On a L16 raid L16s SHOULD be able to complete it, and not a lot of them can take 500pt untyped damage. It's a tad overboard. At level 20 that's fair game.

How is dying as the tank due to rolling a 1 on disintegrate going to negatively effect your chance at a completion? This isn't horoth here. The reavers got a quarter of the DPS, no banishment or stun, and doesn't heal a single hit point if someone dies.

If you die, so be it. Sub in another joe schmoe to be his punching bag, there's probably 10 other people not actively doing anything and who can fill the role; its not like his DPS is any potent.

[dingal]

umm why exactly ? The game pretty clearly always intended raids to challenge high level players. Hundreds of thousands of players are lvl20 now.. So thats the new high lvl. Cap was 14 when reaver came out, so there just fixing that flaw now that the cap is up.
.

Um Im gonna go out on a limb here and try to answer why a level 16 raid shouldnt challenge a group full of level 20s:

Because it's a level 16 raid. Not a level 20 raid. We have level 20 raids that are here to be challenging for level 20s.

Level 16 raids are meant to be challenging to level 16s and as such should be accessible to a group of newly minted level 16's on norm. I've no issues with elite pushing the envelope for quintuple TR'ed fully geared 16s but that still should not present much challenge to a group of geared 20's.

I mean if you think everything should be challenging to level 20's then why even have levels? Might as well just make everyone and everything 20 and call it a day.

The new Super Veteran Status allows you to created TR'ed characters at level 20. Available in the DDO store for only 500 TP.

Superior Heart of Wood - Instantly TR your character and raise it to a 36pt build only 2500TP.

Exceptional Heart of Wood - Instant Completionist!

Or we could continue to have levels and design quests that are an appropriate test for characters within the stated level range.

Either or.

[joaofalcao]

How is dying as the tank due to rolling a 1 on disintegrate going to negatively effect your chance at a completion? This isn't horoth here. The reavers got a quarter of the DPS, no banishment or stun, and doesn't heal a single hit point if someone dies.

Yes, hes a raid boss at a lvl 14 raid. Thats why he doesnt do any of those things and horoth does.

And thats why hes desintegrate shouldnt hit as high as a lvl 20 raid boss.

Chance at completion is not the subject. Balance is.

[Ssmooth]

And thats why hes desintegrate shouldnt hit as high as a lvl 20 raid boss.

An elite boss should do elite damage. Comparing a lvl 16(on elite) raid boss to a lvl 20(on normal) raid boss is not a fair comparison.

The fact that their desintegrations do equal damage is irrelevant due to quest difficulty.

[Missing_Minds]

How is dying as the tank due to rolling a 1 on disintegrate going to negatively effect your chance at a completion? This isn't horoth here. The reavers got a quarter of the DPS, no banishment or no save stun, and doesn't heal a single hit point if someone dies.

Yes, hes a raid boss at a lvl 14 raid. Thats why he doesnt do any of those things and horoth does.
And thats why hes desintegrate shouldnt hit as high as a lvl 20 raid boss.
Chance at completion is not the subject. Balance is.

Actually, Reaver does have Thunderclap which stuns, but it has a save.
Both have extras that normally the rest or some of the party takes care of.

A level 20 raid boss has... 3.5 more things than a 14 has/can do.
And you are crying for balance?

Oh yes, can't forget the fact that the Reaver also grants infinite SP. Horth does not. But you die, there is the penalty box vs. just getting an easy res.
There is no run and kill to get to the quest with Reaver unlike ToD.

So if that isn't balanced to you... just what would be balanced, and remember. You are talking balanced which means you must consider everything, not a singular part.

[Phidius]

...
So if that isn't balanced to you... just what would be balanced, and remember. You are talking balanced which means you must consider everything, not a singular part.

And don't forget the loot!

[thewalex]

We don't, but we also don't think a boss should be throwing a Hortoh-level disintegrate in a level 16 raid.

Maybe the "Horoth-level" standard has been upped as well...

Has anyone tried horoth on lam to see if he is now much deadlier on elite? Until its tried we cant say stormreaver compares.

I also pose the same question. Did they up Horoth's disintegrate as well to 600-700 to "scale up the difficulty" as well?
I shudder to think that they may have doubled the Abbot's health and given him even more resistances...

In my opinion, this type of retooling will make it more grindy and time consuming for experienced players and turn new players away who try to run it geared with at-level items (not twinks) and with inexperienced pugs.

I'd support an increase in HP and perhaps some increased saves/immunities so that the tanker doesn't kill him before all the orbs are activated, but the 500 damage disintegrates is ridiculous.

Also, I rather enjoyed tanking this with my FvS due to all the mana from the charges to play around with. I'll certainly miss that.

[Ssmooth]

I'd support an increase in HP and perhaps some increased saves/immunities so that the tanker doesn't kill him before all the orbs are activated, but the 500 damage disintegrates is ridiculous.

Also, I rather enjoyed tanking this with my FvS due to all the mana from the charges to play around with. I'll certainly miss that.

It's ELITE....why should it be a walk in the park? At level 16, a fighter/barb should have over 500hp. You shouldn't be able to tank with a drow sorc...or solo it at level 12 with a wf sorc...

[grodon9999]

It's ELITE....why should it be a walk in the park? At level 16, a fighter/barb should have over 500hp. You shouldn't be able to tank with a drow sorc...or solo it at level 12 with a wf sorc...

Should "Elite" Waterworks pose a challenge to level 20s?

level 14 on elite = level 16 raid.

[Rodasch]

Um Im gonna go out on a limb here and try to answer why a level 16 raid shouldnt challenge a group full of level 20s:

Because it's a level 16 raid. Not a level 20 raid. We have level 20 raids that are here to be challenging for level 20s.

Level 16 raids are meant to be challenging to level 16s and as such should be accessible to a group of newly minted level 16's on norm. I've no issues with elite pushing the envelope for quintuple TR'ed fully geared 16s but that still should not present much challenge to a group of geared 20's.

I mean if you think everything should be challenging to level 20's then why even have levels? Might as well just make everyone and everything 20 and call it a day.

The new Super Veteran Status allows you to created TR'ed characters at level 20. Available in the DDO store for only 500 TP.

Superior Heart of Wood - Instantly TR your character and raise it to a 36pt build only 2500TP.

Exceptional Heart of Wood - Instant Completionist!

Or we could continue to have levels and design quests that are an appropriate test for characters within the stated level range.

Either or.

Gonna have to agree with the Dingal here.