Suggestion: 3250 Favour: unlock hard/elite for TR1/2+

[Dysmetria]

Key word. Downgrade. They knew some perks would no longer be there. That was the choice they made. If they regret that choice, they can opt to return to VIP.

They did not know that the bravery bonus would no longer be there or that VIPs would be getting 1000TP a month for a few months when they downgraded from VIP/chose premium over VIP 6 months ago, or that it would only cost $10 per month to subscribe and that VIPs would be able to unlock elite and not just hard if they downgraded/chose to go premium over a year ago. The choices they made to downgrade were based on the options that were there at the time.

Sure they can opt to return to VIP, or to start subscribing for those that chose premium initially, but after buying most every VIP perk outright for the life of this game, subscribing so just to be able to open on elite and get access to the bravery bonus is not something most premiums will want to do.

IF they give way my last perk to cheaply I will be gone as they will have devauled my sub to far and its not a option for me to buy a bunch of tps and buy what I get cheaply now it leaves a bad taste in my month now selling to TR's only for a reasonable cost is I guess but a account wide is very distasteful to me and will be my final straw.

Likewise it leaves a bad taste in every premium's mouth and devalues their choice to not sub or stop subbing each time the VIP package is improved. Turbine has added the ability to open on elite, made the subscription deal cheaper, gave VIPs more free TP per month, and now are going to give them an effectively exclusive exp bonus.

While subscribers have gotten more and more as their subscription price dropped by a third, all premiums have gotten was a way overpriced single use elite unlock they have to pay extra for.

[Ungood]

They did not know that the bravery bonus would no longer be there or that VIPs would be getting 1000TP a month for a few months when they downgraded from VIP/chose premium over VIP 6 months ago, or that it would only cost $10 per month to subscribe and that VIPs would be able to unlock elite and not just hard if they downgraded/chose to go premium over a year ago. The choices they made to downgrade were based on the options that were there at the time.

Sure they can opt to return to VIP, or to start subscribing for those that chose premium initially, but after buying most every VIP perk outright for the life of this game, subscribing so just to be able to open on elite and get access to the bravery bonus is not something most premiums will want to do.

Likewise it leaves a bad taste in every premium's mouth and devalues their choice to not sub or stop subbing each time the VIP package is improved. Turbine has added the ability to open on elite, made the subscription deal cheaper, gave VIPs more free TP per month, and now are going to give them an effectively exclusive exp bonus.

While subscribers have gotten more and more as their subscription price dropped by a third, all premiums have gotten was a way overpriced single use elite unlock they have to pay extra for.

There are deals being cut on both sides constantly, no payment plan is a martyr in this game. Right now we just had a 20% off on all adventure packs, most VIP's felt a little slighted by their sub because they could not take advantage of that. Everyone has their perks and benefits. A Perk of being premium is you never have to pay again, would you like that taken away?

[Bodic]

Here are simple fact:.

The game, and its rules can change as Turbine see fit to change them.
If you are premium you get what they say.
If you are Free play you get what they say.
If you are VIP you get what they say.
Favor rewards are for all 3 of thoses groups. what it unlocks must be to the benefit of all.

That said favor for a VIP granted ability is a big Fat never going to happen.

To other things:

Now you want to use the Xp factors of Bravery Bonus and its restriction to validate you desire. Nope sorry an in game mechanic changed you get the benefit from already you must group witha VIP or purchase that expensive 1x unlock if you dont think this is "fair" read the top of my post again.

Do I feel the Bravery Mechnic needs to be modified to be more accessable to all yes by granting a favor unlock to open quests on hard and elite no.

I stated this in another post I would not care if Turbine allowed for the purchase of permenant Hard unlock only for say 30,000 TP I think that seems fair.

now when it com to things being fair you choose which of the 3 categories you want to be in, and must accept all changes to said category.

You know without a doubt VIP will always get the better end of the Deal. You can't speak of well I lumped $XXX to them all at once as a premimum. Yes you did and guess what so do VIP's. I have been on the quarterly sub since my join date even when I didn't play. I have myself spent money on extra TP's in total what VIP's for that entire time have earned under 15000 from their monthly allowance yeah thats a bunch I cant recall the day TP's started and yes we have had a few double months here and there like the summer ones that is it.

In the end its those simple facts at the top of this post that carry any weight at all. Your choice their rules.

[Ungood]

Here are simple fact:.

The game, and its rules can change as Turbine see fit to change them.
If you are premium you get what they say.
If you are Free play you get what they say.
If you are VIP you get what they say.
Favor rewards are for all 3 of thoses groups. what it unlocks must be to the benefit of all.

Bingo! Well said!

[der_kluge]

The problem with a favor reward allowing Hard unlocks is that it doesn't give anything to VIPs - there needs to be some incentive for VIPs to do that.

So, what I suggest is this (this may already have been suggested):

3,250 grants a special favor reward whereby you get to choose (on the first time you achieve the reward), whether you want to unlock the game on Hard, or get a bound +4 tome of your choice. Honestly, those two seem comparable, because I'd have to think long and hard about which one of those two I'd want.

Subsequent 3,250 favor rewards (either on different characters, or the same TR'd character) grants you the +4 tome.

For fun, have the guy that grants this boon be the hidden dude in the hammock in house D.

[Zargarx]

3250 favor gives Server unlock for hard, but ONLY usable for TRed characters.

1200 TP, all servers unlock for hard, but ONLY usable for TRed characters.
4000 TP, all servers unlock for hard, usable on all characters.

VIPs keep Elite as a special privilege.

[Uska]

3250 favor gives Server unlock for hard, but ONLY usable for TRed characters.

1200 TP, all servers unlock for hard, but ONLY usable for TRed characters.
4000 TP, all servers unlock for hard, usable on all characters.

VIPs keep Elite as a special privilege.

and still gives nothing to VIP's for favor mark so not good

[Dysmetria]

Right now we just had a 20% off on all adventure packs, most VIP's felt a little slighted by their sub because they could not take advantage of that.

Why would you feel slighted on not being able to buy something at a discounbt when you already have it and don't need another, like with access to an adventure pack?

and still gives nothing to VIP's for favor mark so not good

Any talk of a favor reward that doesn't benefit everyone equally is pointless. Those that want a hard and/or elite unlock for premiums are better served posting in the other threads on the topic, and those that want to suggest something else as a favor reward should probably do the same.

There's already a lot of great suggestions lost in the earlier pages of this thread that are buried by useless debate.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Good to see some fresh opinions.

I see a few issues though which I would love to see commented about rather than the usual back and forth:

1. The Bravery Bonus resulted from the issue that the most effective way to level up a Legendary character is to do a few quests N*7,H,E (we'll call this Burn Out Method - BOM for short). The outcome of this is a loss of income for Turbine from people burning out or getting too bored of the TR process to keep doing it (as TR'ing is a notorious money maker).

It is great that some people who TR use different strategies but it isn't relevant to the conversation as the focus is what is the most efficient and what a majority of people are doing.

2. All account types should be able to access the bonus as it is a problem for all accounts. I don't say this because I care about fair, I say it because giving access to the bonus to all account types represents more income for Turbine (as Bodic said, what is fair or not matters squat).

3. The form of access for non-VIP accounts is the matter in question. Currently, non-VIPs can access through a range of strategies including buying individual unlocks or using an opener (friendly VIP, second account, relogging etc). The issue that I see with all of these strategies is that they are not efficient for the needs of a Legendary character who would have to repeat that process hundreds of times through the almost 4.5 million xp. Hence, without a more efficient means of access those Legendary characters will fall back on the BOM'ing (which would result in less revenue for Turbine).

4. Any solution which only gives access to hard is no solution at all due to the lost xp from repetitions on normal outweighing the benefit of getting a bravery bonus (hence we go back to the BOM'ing and Turbine ends up with less revenue).

5. In my opinion, first and second life characters don't need the access as they are comparatively easy to level up and much less likely to cause boredom or burn out. It is quite crucial in fact that non-VIP accounts don't get this access for their non-TR'd characters to maintain an incentive to be VIP (don't misquote or rephrase me). For these characters using any of the currently available forms of access is perfectly reasonable. However, if you are going to give Legendary characters elite access then it seems a reasonable progression to give Heroic (34 point build) characters hard access.

6. In my opinion, any solution which involves putting access in the DDO store will be a failure. Either, the price will be too high and no one will pay it (No revenue from sales and back to BOM'ing so less revenue for Turbine). Or, the price is too low and VIPs will cancel their subscriptions and just buy the account option. I don't really see a middle ground (due to everyone having different price sensitivities).

7. 32 point builds is (or was) the highest grossing store item. Drow, Veteran Status and Favoured Soul all sell as well. This indicates to me that a majority of the player base isn't prepared to grind favour for something that they can pay for. Using this rationale I made this suggestion with the intention that some of the player base would prefer to pay for the access by going VIP permanently rather than grinding out such a high favour water mark.

8. A simple strategy in sales is to convince someone to take up a habit for a short time because it will inevitably in a good number of cases become a long time. This is something else attractive about my suggestion, imo, as it would encourage many players to take up VIP temporarily to grind out the favour for the access (which would likely drag out to a long term subscription in some cases).

9. Introducing an ongoing cost to the access that non-VIPs get is another to provide some balance. That is the intention of the "gong" idea. The amounts could be adjusted (up to 150 TP for 100 charges would be reasonable, imo) but the general gist of a plat sink and requirement for epic tokens (which not all players are confident in procuring) is a nice way to further incentivise going VIP.

10. The use of the high water mark favour reward is more a lack of any better way to achieve the objectives with the constraints involved. I would be all for providing rewards for VIP too at the same level or different (soon 4000 favour will be achievable, can't wait to see what is offered) but I don't know what ideas are in the works for that.

11. If premium players have access to the Bravery Bonus then you would expect sales of adventure packs to increase with the expected intention to complete a wider range of quests. If you combine this with an incentive to own all of the adventure packs for purposes of unlocking the Bravery Bonus (rather than just giving it to them in the store or another way) then it would be reasonable to expect an even more positive outcome on adventure pack sales.

12. Just joking ...

[Ungood]

If, and I mean IF this is simply for the Bravery Bonus.

Here are some figures There are 257 Unique Quest in the Game. Proving a total of 746,552 EXP if each done once on Normal at BASE.

What they means is, You end up with 933,190 EXP for First Time (25%). 1,166,487, if you Conquest (+25%) 1,341,460 if you Ransack (+15%), 1,475,606 If they or you do not die (+10%), and 1,623,167 EXP if they or you do nor re-enter (+10%).

Now think about that. That is OVER 1.5 Million Exp, for doing each quest solidly ONCE on Normal.

What is this really then? Ok. What this is in game terms,

• First Time level 1 - 20. Is not even each quest, once, on normal.
• TR1 is Each quest done once on Normal and then most on Hard, and your done.
• TR2+ Is each quest done once on Normal and Hard, with most done on Elite

Now that we know the numbers, and how much exp is out there for us, Can we please end this discussion about some insane self-burn-out method (BOM) that makes no sense to use or how the bravery bonus is really needed.

With the up coming 40% increase to Hard Exp and 80% for Elite, if players are using this BOM method they are doing something very wrong.

The fact of the matter is, Elite open was never needed for anything, and never will be. Even with this Bravery Bonus looming over the horizon, it is nothing but a perk as well. At best a VIP can get to 3rd life TR just slightly faster then a Premium, and maybe do a few less quest to get there.

Now with that, I am going to back to having my TR do each quest on each difficulty while I still time to enjoy that method, before I am expected to open up everyone quest on elite for the bravery bonus.

Added: and one last thing, there is 3,659 Available Favor to be Earned in the Game currently and this number, Like EXP is always going UP!

[wax_on_wax_off]

Now that we know the numbers, and how much exp is out there for us, Can we please end this discussion about some insane self-burn-out method (BOM) that makes no sense to use or how the bravery bonus is really needed.

I guess you missed this bit:

It is great that some people who TR use different strategies but it isn't relevant to the conversation as the focus is what is the most efficient and what a majority of people are doing.

Fact is, BOM'ing is the currently accepted strategy by a majority of players who TR.

Your facts are great but they don't take into account the crucial time that it takes to do a quest or get a quest from a quest giver or run back the quest to turn in the reward. BOM'ing vastly minimises the second 2 considerations (up to 1/10 of the time usually spent) and lets you pick and choose the quests that have desirable xp/minute ratios (usually aim for a minimum of 1000 xp/minute everything considered).

However, you seem to have some trouble accepting this so I'll requote the developer post that I've previously quoted in this thread:

Thanks.

Ironically, this started with me trying to add an XP bonus for TR'ing, then grew to include what I described above, but ended up with the TR'ing portion cut (at least for the time being).

And more ironic is that it was never conceived as a VIP perk. There was a thread a while back about TR'ing where I hinted that I wanted to do something to help counter the 'play normal x times vs any other difficulty because it was more efficient' which sounds ultra-boring to me. It also didn't help that I found myself disincentivized to run anything but Normal (at least when soloing).

I personally don't like anyone being prevented from running the quest on the difficulty that best suits them and I hope we can change this at some point soon.

At least the one-time-per-difficulty bonuses were increased and that applies to all players.

Please read it. Please consider it.

[Ungood]

Fact is, BOM'ing is the currently accepted strategy by a majority of players who TR.

Apparently you missed this:

With the up coming 40% increase to Hard Exp and 80% for Elite, if players are using this BOM method they are doing something very wrong.

If a player opts to use a method that is both ineffective, and burns them out, that is their fault and a problem of play style not a mechanical issue of the game or there being a lack of abundant exp to gain.

This is sounding more like a smoke screen to try and justify taking away a VIP perk then it really is a means to provide anything viable to the game.

/NOT SIGNED - AGAIN!

[wax_on_wax_off]

With the up coming 40% increase to Hard Exp and 80% for Elite, if players are using this BOM method they are doing something very wrong.

You suggest that the most efficient way to level a legendary character will be to only go for first time bonuses? You think that is what will get you to level 20 the fastest?

Fact is, players respond to incentives and at the moment there is a huge incentive to use the method that results in less risk (repeating a well known quest is easy) and the greatest reward (xp/minute). However, this structure is going to lose players in the long term.

Personally, I'd like to see a structure that provides an incentive to complete a quest ~3 times on the hardest difficulty possible. I might adjust my other suggestion thread to reflect this ...

[Xaxx]

The problem with a favor reward allowing Hard unlocks is that it doesn't give anything to VIPs - there needs to be some incentive for VIPs to do that.

So, what I suggest is this (this may already have been suggested):

3,250 grants a special favor reward whereby you get to choose (on the first time you achieve the reward), whether you want to unlock the game on Hard, or get a bound +4 tome of your choice. Honestly, those two seem comparable, because I'd have to think long and hard about which one of those two I'd want.

Subsequent 3,250 favor rewards (either on different characters, or the same TR'd character) grants you the +4 tome.

For fun, have the guy that grants this boon be the hidden dude in the hammock in house D.

so vips give up their perk for 1 +4 tome... ROFLMAO... what dont the premiums get about the fact that your not trying to fix bravery at all with all of these give us the vip unlock threads.

Simply put... no.... more elegeantly put.. HELL NO.

You guys wanna fix bravery sytem, fix the bravery system. Stop trying to weasel out of turbine something that you chose not to have access to when you chose your payment method.

Premiums CHOSE NOT TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE UNLOCKS EXCEPT VIA THE EXPENSIVE STORE OPTION OR OTHER PLAYERS. Vips need not be punished for your choice... period.

Scream at turbine at the top of your lungs to fix bravery system... dont scream at turbine at the top of your lungs because you want something that isnt supposed to be yours to have.

[KuRRuPT]

Can you even get 4000 favor?

Even with the new quests I believe the cap is around 3900?

yes you can i think i am setting on a toon that has 4500 if not more has done every thing in the game on elite. I think it will go higher then that with more new content


Oh yeah if you want this stuff then you need to be VIP stop asking for all of this when u don't want to even pay for the game... Devs plz do not give this to any one that dose not want to pay to play...As a matter of fact they better not give you something I have to pay for every month...

[wax_on_wax_off]

yes you can i think i am setting on a toon that has 4500 if not more has done every thing in the game on elite. I think it will go higher then that with more new content


Oh yeah if you want this stuff then you need to be VIP stop asking for all of this when u don't want to even pay for the game... Devs plz do not give this to any one that dose not want to pay to play...As a matter of fact they better not give you something I have to pay for every month...

Did I read that right? You are sitting on a toon that has 4500? I'd like to see that.

Choose not to pay to play? You're not serious, right? You think a non-VIP account could get to 3000+ favour without paying a dime? Seriously? Perhaps someone has done it but they are a crazy soab.

One of the points of this suggestion is that it requires ownership of 95% of the game content. This usually equates to people having spent $100+ on the game (and they probably continue to spend money as more content comes out).

An additional point of this suggestion is that it will encourage more spending to get to the favour reward or picking up a VIP sub (to get access to quests). Either way it equals more money for Turbine, not less.

[mystafyi]

Choose not to pay to play? You're not serious, right? You think a non-VIP account could get to 3000+ favour without paying a dime? Seriously?

I know quite a few people that have never paid a dime to turbine and yet have every pack/class/race in the game. I'm sure there are many more that i dont know of simply because they dont want folks to know they are freeloading off the payments of players that actually do pay.

its not like bandwidth is free... or developers work for free... or maybe suddenly turbine doesnt have to pay any bills.....

[wax_on_wax_off]

I know quite a few people that have never paid a dime to turbine and yet have every pack/class/race in the game. I'm sure there are many more that i dont know of simply because they dont want folks to know they are freeloading off the payments of players that actually do pay.

its not like bandwidth is free... or developers work for free... or maybe suddenly turbine doesnt have to pay any bills.....

I'm not sure if you are intentionally fear mongering, misinformed or just downright exaggerating.

RoBi3.0's Free to Play Guide while dated has some rather salient information as to the possibility to play this game for free.

For starters, you would need something like 12000 TPs to buy every adventure pack. Then you need a significant amount of extra points to unlock all of the account options. At the very best it takes ~20-30 minutes to earn 25 TP in the absolute most boring manner if you have an elite opener. That equates to maybe 300 hours to unlock the entire game (this is all best case scenario). Maybe you could do it faster if you have a third or fourth person finishing quests for you (including the elite opener).

The people that set out to do this don't lie low. They are proud of their achievements and tend to announce their specific accomplishments. I'm sure that Turbine has very specific information about the amount of people who are completely or mostly f2p. In the end, if they wouldn't have played the game without the option to play in their chosen way then it is better that they be playing the game than not. Even if they are completely f2p they usually enrich the game for everyone else. More likely however is the fact that sooner or later you spend a little or spend a lot (I was trying the unlock route but bought myself a nice big christmas present to unlock all content when the sales were on).

However, that is not relevant to this topic whatsoever.

What is relevant is that there is a good portion of Premium players who regularly TR and it is important for Turbine to protect that regular income just like they are doing for their VIP players.

[Antiopa]

What is relevant is that there is a good portion of Premium players who regularly TR and it is important for Turbine to protect that regular income just like they are doing for their VIP players.

/signed

I know that I may not have paid just as much as a VIP did in the past 1½ years I've played - BUT I have bought the large bundle of points 3 times now.. 3x49$... I know for a fact that this is more than what a VIP has paid if he's been VIP for even half a year.. Why is it that I can't get the bravery bonus just because I chose to pay in a different way?

[Ungood]

You suggest that the most efficient way to level a legendary character will be to only go for first time bonuses? You think that is what will get you to level 20 the fastest?

I suggest nothing. I have shown you the cold hard numbers of the EXP in this game.

My Numbers also do not take into account VoM/Mantle (+5%) and Ship Shine (+3%) so there is at least 8% more exp to be had then what I listed.

With these numbers you and anyone else can play the game in a manner that pleases you. It is just a game for us players after all.

If anyone opts to play and level up using a method that does not bring them enjoyment that does make a problem on My or the Developers end. I have neither caused them harm, or deprived them fun, thus they should not be entitled to the perks I am paying for.

/signed

I know that I may not have paid just as much as a VIP did in the past 2½ years I've played - BUT I have bought the large bundle of points 3 times now.. 3x49$... I know for a fact that this is more than what a VIP has paid if he's been VIP for even half a year.. Why is it that I can't get the bravery bonus just because I chose to pay in a different way?

A VIP will have paid no less then $280 for those same 2½ years of enjoyable game fun. And they will continue to keep paying for that same fun. They pay extra for those perks. Take those perks away and you remove the VIP. Now. I am not trying to be rude at all, but Turbine is a business, they have bills to pay, each time you log in is added bandwidth to them, each time you loot something is memory to them. Each character you make cost them more drive space, and none of that comes free, all the way down to the electric bill to keep the server up, they have to pay to keep this game going.

So. Now, We all want it to be fair and just and all that. But like a store, or any kind of business, Money does talk. It speaks volumes and in this case, gigabites. Turbine would basically shoot themselves in the head to cater to a player base who may have paid upwards-to $150 in the past 2½ years at the risk of alienating a player base that has spent no-less-than $280 in those last 2½. years, Most likely far, far more. As VIP used to be 15 a month (180 for one year) and 12 a moth for an annual contract (150 for a buy annual), which puts those numbers well over $300 or bare minimum twice what you have spent in the same time. And that is if they never bought a point bundle, which is highly unlikely imho.

So, if you paid twice as much as everyone else, wouldn't you feel you deserve some perks for that? In fact if this Bravery Bonus was designed to cater to the VIP, that would validate the high price they pay to play this game compared to what Premiums can pay to play the same content.

I do not think there is enough understanding on exactly how much VIP's pay to play this game and that too should be taken into consideration.