Suggestion: 3250 Favour: unlock hard/elite for TR1/2+

[wax_on_wax_off]

I suggest nothing. I have shown you the cold hard numbers of the EXP in this game.

My Numbers also do not take into account VoM/Mantle (+5%) and Ship Shine (+3%) so there is at least 8% more exp to be had then what I listed.

With these numbers you and anyone else can play the game in a manner that pleases you. It is just a game for us players after all.

If anyone opts to play and level up using a method that does not bring them enjoyment that does make a problem on My or the Developers end. I have neither caused them harm, or deprived them fun, thus they should not be entitled to the perks I am paying for.

Developers are very responsible for influencing the way that their players play their game. Especially when the playing in question is brought about through efficiency.

Your cold hard facts don't take into account the time involved in accruing that experience. How many quests produce 1000+ xp/minute including travel time? Unless you can provide those facts then most TR'ers will stick with the quests that they know which provide consistent, efficient, (probably) superior results.

[Ungood]

Developers are very responsible for influencing the way that their players play their game. Especially when the playing in question is brought about through efficiency.

A player can opt to play a game by what they deem to be the most effective/fun, that does not equate to how the Developers may have wanted the game played. Their duty is not to give you the most fastest exp, but to ensure that getting the exp is there and abundant. There is so much exp in this, that a First Time Build can miss near half of it and still hit 20th easy.

I also did not include Outdoor zones, so slayers/rares/explores were not taken into consideration. This game is an ocean of EXP for a player.

Thus, I have shown. clearly that there is ample exp in this game that does not require anyone doing a quest 9 times. If you opt to that, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Your cold hard facts don't take into account the time involved in accruing that experience. How many quests produce 1000+ xp/minute including travel time? Unless you can provide those facts then most TR'ers will stick with the quests that they know which provide consistent, efficient, (probably) superior results.

Min/max Exp/Min. is a perosnal choice for how a player approaches playing the game and not something the Developesr need to consoider. It is a game, IE: Played as a hobby for recreation and fun, If you burning yourself out with this approach to "having fun", that is a problem on your end.

Not theirs, or Mine.

[Dysmetria]

Min/max Exp/Min. is a perosnal choice for how a player approaches playing the game and not something the Developesr need to consoider. It is a game, IE: Played as a hobby for recreation and fun, If you burning yourself out with this approach to "having fun", that is a problem on your end.

Not theirs, or Mine.

But the developers,at least the ones quoted in this thread, do seem to consider it a problem. That is why one said they came up with the bravery bonus in the first place.

[wax_on_wax_off]

But the developers,at least the ones quoted in this thread, do seem to consider it a problem. That is why one said they came up with the bravery bonus in the first place.

Well they must be wrong, right Ungood?

[Ungood]

But the developers,at least the ones quoted in this thread, do seem to consider it a problem. That is why one said they came up with the bravery bonus in the first place.

If you read what was said in context of the discussion that is not what is being talked about. In fact that was in relation to the raise to 40% for Hard and 80% for elite.

The problem is not players doing a quest 9 times (I highly doubt they will change their play style), but some players wanting a challenge and willing to do a quest only once on elite at level being properly rewarded. Ergo the raise in First Time Bonus. Players who want this challange can opt to VIP to take advantage of the Bravery Bonus as well, or find other ways to do so (Unlock Tokens perhaps?)

Ahhh, OK I see where you're coming from. Well, technically they don't need a VIP, they just need someone who has access to Hard and that can be a premium player who has already completed the quest on Normal.

Access to their content at desired difficulty, is still the sole responsibility of the player. End of discussion.

Also:

Nope. We're trying to make it flexible enough to not overly complicate grouping. Once a quest is no longer 'virgin' to you, it cannot affect your streak counters.

'Brave' basically means 'This character has never run this quest. Instead of starting with Normal (or casual for that matter), I'll challenge myself by playing it on Hard or Elite.'

Once you've successfully completed the quest on any difficulty then your character is familiar with it and doesn't qualify for further bravery bonuses on that quest.

So, a Premium player could get access to a quest, either by having done it, or having a VIP open, or buying the unlock, anyway is good, and then if they feel so strongly about being an opener, they can open it for others and not disrupt their streak.

There is nothing here about removing the VIP's Unlock Perk, and the Unlock Perk was planned to the VIP's, intended and WAI. The Bravery Bonus is separate, and open to anyone that can open a harder difficulty of their own ability. It just happens to be easy for VIP's. It is not exclusive to them. You could always just have a 20th max favor toon on an alt account open the quests for you or ask a friend, as MadFloyd suggested.

[wax_on_wax_off]

If you read what was said in context of the discussion that is not what is being talked about. In fact that was in relation to the raise to 40% for Hard and 80% for elite.

I fail to see how this can be put out of context:

Thanks.

Ironically, this started with me trying to add an XP bonus for TR'ing, then grew to include what I described above, but ended up with the TR'ing portion cut (at least for the time being).

And more ironic is that it was never conceived as a VIP perk. There was a thread a while back about TR'ing where I hinted that I wanted to do something to help counter the 'play normal x times vs any other difficulty because it was more efficient' which sounds ultra-boring to me. It also didn't help that I found myself disincentivized to run anything but Normal (at least when soloing).

I personally don't like anyone being prevented from running the quest on the difficulty that best suits them and I hope we can change this at some point soon.

At least the one-time-per-difficulty bonuses were increased and that applies to all players.

[TheDjinnFor]

Getting hard access at 3250 favor sounds fair to me, and it fits with the 1000 -> 1750 -> 2500 progression.

If you're a premium you've probably already spent a couple hundred if you can get 3250 favor.

[Ungood]

Getting hard access at 3250 favor sounds fair to me, and it fits with the 1000 -> 1750 -> 2500 progression.

If you're a premium you've probably already spent a couple hundred if you can get 3250 favor.

Here are simple fact:.

The game, and its rules can change as Turbine see fit to change them.
If you are premium you get what they say.
If you are Free play you get what they say.
If you are VIP you get what they say.
Favor rewards are for all 3 of thoses groups. what it unlocks must be to the benefit of all.

This idea has been met strong opposition because not only dose it begin to devalue the VIP perk, the VIP gets nothing for their favor reward with this method.

[wax_on_wax_off]

This idea has been met strong opposition because not only dose it begin to devalue the VIP perk, the VIP gets nothing for their favor reward with this method.

VIP often don't get anything for the 1750 and 2500 favour rewards either as the monthly amount of points with nothing better to spend them on sees most VIPs buying these account options anyway. In the end it's hard to come up with a high water mark favour rewards which don't need to be put in the store.

I think it's really important not to devalue the VIP perk because I value the health of our game just like everyone else does. The way to find a compromise is to create hurdles which are so large that there is significant incentive to remain VIP. Store sales show that high water mark favour rewards are a considerable hurdle for most players (hence my use of it). Additionally, when you are putting such a high water mark that it requires ownership of 95%+ of content then it encourages spending on adventure packs (assuming that they haven't already been bought).

Overall though, I think my suggestion would encourage take up of VIP subscriptions rather than less (at least in the short term).

[wax_on_wax_off]

If you want to express what you specifically have done with your Turbine Points, you have free to do so. But I find it offending that you would assume what I do with mine.

In the past I've heard it stated as fact that 32 point builds is the highest grossing store item, additionally, I've known many many VIPs and just about all of them (95%) have chosen to buy 32 point builds. Simply put, the mentality that usually leads a player to become VIP also tends to lend itself to not minding spending points on an otherwise unlockable feature like 32 point builds or Favoured Soul.

As a generalisation, VIPs value their time more than petty cash. That's ok, it's what keeps the game going. In contrast, Premiums have a greater variety of values and objectives when it comes to gaming.

I'm sorry if you are offending by my generalisations but they are simply that, generalisations.

Edit: The post this post quoted was deleted I guess.

[Ungood]

Well, This has been talked to death.

We shall see if Post U11 VIP remains worth it.

I have been a VIP for 2 years now, and I have to admit I have been wondering if it was really worth the sub or not. There are many others in the same boat as I am in, every month wondering if the sub is really worth it, because the reality is most VIP's know we could have owned this game forever for less then half what we have been paying to play.

The reality is, even if Turbine alienated their VIP base I honestly doubt many of us would leave. Because lets be honest, No matter what happens, I kinda like this game, and I am going to play it. VIP or Premium. Meh, Life goes on. It's the same game either way.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Well, This has been talked to death.

We shall see if Post U11 VIP remains worth it.

I have been a VIP for 2 years now, and I have to admit I have been wondering if it was really worth the sub or not. There are many others in the same boat as I am in, every month wondering if the sub is really worth it, because the reality is most VIP's know we could have owned this game forever for less then half what we have been paying to play.

The reality is, even if Turbine alienated their VIP base I honestly doubt many of us would leave. Because lets be honest, No matter what happens, I kinda like this game, and I am going to play it. VIP or Premium. Meh, Life goes on. It's the same game either way.

Good for you! I love this game too. I mean, here I am, not able to play and whiling away the hours on the forum until I can redownload the game and get me my DDO fix.

I can't wait to play the new Artificer class. I've got 3 builds all worked out for it, now just to figure out which one will be more fun ...

[Antiopa]

I suggest nothing. I have shown you the cold hard numbers of the EXP in this game.

My Numbers also do not take into account VoM/Mantle (+5%) and Ship Shine (+3%) so there is at least 8% more exp to be had then what I listed.

With these numbers you and anyone else can play the game in a manner that pleases you. It is just a game for us players after all.

If anyone opts to play and level up using a method that does not bring them enjoyment that does make a problem on My or the Developers end. I have neither caused them harm, or deprived them fun, thus they should not be entitled to the perks I am paying for.



A VIP will have paid no less then $280 for those same 2½ years of enjoyable game fun. And they will continue to keep paying for that same fun. They pay extra for those perks. Take those perks away and you remove the VIP. Now. I am not trying to be rude at all, but Turbine is a business, they have bills to pay, each time you log in is added bandwidth to them, each time you loot something is memory to them. Each character you make cost them more drive space, and none of that comes free, all the way down to the electric bill to keep the server up, they have to pay to keep this game going.

So. Now, We all want it to be fair and just and all that. But like a store, or any kind of business, Money does talk. It speaks volumes and in this case, gigabites. Turbine would basically shoot themselves in the head to cater to a player base who may have paid upwards-to $150 in the past 2½ years at the risk of alienating a player base that has spent no-less-than $280 in those last 2½. years, Most likely far, far more. As VIP used to be 15 a month (180 for one year) and 12 a moth for an annual contract (150 for a buy annual), which puts those numbers well over $300 or bare minimum twice what you have spent in the same time. And that is if they never bought a point bundle, which is highly unlikely imho.

So, if you paid twice as much as everyone else, wouldn't you feel you deserve some perks for that? In fact if this Bravery Bonus was designed to cater to the VIP, that would validate the high price they pay to play this game compared to what Premiums can pay to play the same content.

I do not think there is enough understanding on exactly how much VIP's pay to play this game and that too should be taken into consideration.

See I don't quite agree with you. They may pay a bit more.. But I am a paying customer as well.. And they will make sure that I stop being that if they keep making changes that I can't benefit from at all. How can that be business?

Besides - Why should a VIP who's only played a month and therefore only paid 10$ get the benefits then?

Edit in my original post: I've only played 1½ years. I mistyped.

[fyrst.grok]

/signed

I know that I may not have paid just as much as a VIP did in the past 1½ years I've played - BUT I have bought the large bundle of points 3 times now.. 3x49$... I know for a fact that this is more than what a VIP has paid if he's been VIP for even half a year.. Why is it that I can't get the bravery bonus just because I chose to pay in a different way?

We started at the same time 1½ year ago, not 2½.

I suggest nothing. I have shown you the cold hard numbers of the EXP in this game.

My Numbers also do not take into account VoM/Mantle (+5%) and Ship Shine (+3%) so there is at least 8% more exp to be had then what I listed.

With these numbers you and anyone else can play the game in a manner that pleases you. It is just a game for us players after all.

If anyone opts to play and level up using a method that does not bring them enjoyment that does make a problem on My or the Developers end. I have neither caused them harm, or deprived them fun, thus they should not be entitled to the perks I am paying for.



A VIP will have paid no less then $280 for those same 2½ years of enjoyable game fun. And they will continue to keep paying for that same fun. They pay extra for those perks. Take those perks away and you remove the VIP. Now. I am not trying to be rude at all, but Turbine is a business, they have bills to pay, each time you log in is added bandwidth to them, each time you loot something is memory to them. Each character you make cost them more drive space, and none of that comes free, all the way down to the electric bill to keep the server up, they have to pay to keep this game going.

So. Now, We all want it to be fair and just and all that. But like a store, or any kind of business, Money does talk. It speaks volumes and in this case, gigabites. Turbine would basically shoot themselves in the head to cater to a player base who may have paid upwards-to $150 in the past 2½ years at the risk of alienating a player base that has spent no-less-than $280 in those last 2½. years, Most likely far, far more. As VIP used to be 15 a month (180 for one year) and 12 a moth for an annual contract (150 for a buy annual), which puts those numbers well over $300 or bare minimum twice what you have spent in the same time. And that is if they never bought a point bundle, which is highly unlikely imho.

So, if you paid twice as much as everyone else, wouldn't you feel you deserve some perks for that? In fact if this Bravery Bonus was designed to cater to the VIP, that would validate the high price they pay to play this game compared to what Premiums can pay to play the same content.

I do not think there is enough understanding on exactly how much VIP's pay to play this game and that too should be taken into consideration.

Honestly do not think VIP's have an idea how much Premiums are paying..
I used 150$ at least in my 1½ year.. Thats roughly the same as a VIP or more in the same period. A period in which you get points , unlock AND access.

Even if she had been playing for 2½ year she still paid half and should at least have hard unlock by then - if you intent to argue value for the money spend.

[Ungood]

We started at the same time 1½ year ago, not 2½.

Honestly do not think VIP's have an idea how much Premiums are paying..
I used 150$ at least in my 1½ year.. Thats roughly the same as a VIP or more in the same period. A period in which you get points , unlock AND access.

Which was part of the deal. You knew what you were getting when you opted that payment plan, and you knew what the VIP was getting with their payment plan. A poor judgment call on your part should not cost me a perk of my subscription.

If you really want to get into money and value, you have paid $8.34 per month. Shell out the paltry $1.66 a month extra and Sub up to get it if you really think it is such a great deal to be VIP.

Even if she had been playing for 2½ year she still paid half and should at least have hard unlock by then - if you intent to argue value for the money spend.

As for their or your value for for what you spent, The Premium Perk is you never have to pay again for what you have, a one time purchase, Take that away, and then lets talk.

Till then. hands off my Perks.

/Not Signed.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Which was part of the deal. You knew what you were getting when you opted that payment plan, and you knew what the VIP was getting with their payment plan. A poor judgment call on your part should not cost me a perk of my subscription.

If you really want to get into money and value, you have paid $8.34 per month. Shell out the paltry $1.66 a month extra and Sub up to get it if you really think it is such a great deal to be VIP.

As for their or your value for for what you spent, The Premium Perk is you never have to pay again for what you have, a one time purchase, Take that away, and then lets talk.

Till then. hands off my Perks.

/Not Signed.

Your arguments are getting silly. Is it simply your goal to have a /not signed at the bottom of my thread?

No, premiums didn't know what they were getting in to as BB is new.
No, it does not equate to the shortfall you mention as turbine can do more things with money that it has rather than money that it expects.
No, DDO would not still be running without the versatility the turbine store has afforded.
No, DDO cannot survive without it's premium players.

I have clearly quoted how devs are looking at providing access to the BB for everyone in an efficient manner. Rather than hating on the intention of the devs why can't you be constructive? Be realistic. Think about the overall health of the game.

Overall, perhaps the BB is a bad idea due to it's discriminatory nature. Could it be redesigned to be more accommodating? If it was enacted as is what would be the outcome? If you wanted to give premiums some sort of access that addresses the issues that legendary characters have (as acknowledged by Madfloyd) then what would you do?

Remember that players are perfectly justified in finding the easiest, quickest and most efficient way of completing an objective in the game, it is this tendency that has brought about this change in the first place. It's pointless to tell players to try a strategy that has more risk, takes longer and has less reward.

[Ungood]

Your arguments are getting silly. Is it simply your goal to have a /not signed at the bottom of my thread?

No, premiums didn't know what they were getting in to as BB is new.

Poor planning on your part does not equate to a crisis on mine (or anyone elses for that matter)

If this is such a big deal to you, become a VIP. Everyone is telling me how I am getting so much for so little, I am wondering why they are not jumping on the VIP bandwagon already. Hummm. Always a questionable thing when people try to tell you how good your deal is, and yet refuse to partake in it.

No, it does not equate to the shortfall you mention as turbine can do more things with money that it has rather than money that it expects.

Actually like any service company it does everything based on what is expects, not what it has. But discussing that might derail this thread.

No, DDO would not still be running without the versatility the turbine store has afforded.
No, DDO cannot survive without it's premium players.

They can't survive without their VIP's either, I fail to see your point.

Rather than hating on the intention of the devs why can't you be constructive? Be realistic. Think about the overall health of the game.

Oh this argument again. I thought we went though this. If it is really that valuable to you, just sub up and be done with it.

Think of the Bravery Bonus as your idea to inspire people to take a VIP sub and bring more money to turbine, without needing to have to mess with a complex favor reward system.

Overall, perhaps the BB is a bad idea due to it's discriminatory nature.

I personally think it is a great idea, and an incentive to motivate people to become VIP. A good Viable Perk that goes hand in hand with the Perk they have already. It almost seems as if they are making being a VIP worthwhile again. Good to finally receive something that makes keeping the sub alive worth it. As I said, I, like others, do question the worth of keeping the sub going, and adding this in, might be just the thing to make being a VIP really worthwhile again. I mean sure, elite unlock was nice and all, but unless you were favor grinding it really served no worthwhile in game purpose since I was going to do normal 7 times anyway .

And while a Premium can get access to the Bravery Bonus easy enough by having someone else unlock the quest for them (which is not hard really), ergo: It is not exclusive to the VIP even if it does cater to their perk directly.

What is this gripe with VIP's being given this advantage for their sub, I have to ask, Do you have something against them?

Remember that players are perfectly justified in finding the easiest, quickest and most efficient way of completing an objective in the game, it is this tendency that has brought about this change in the first place. It's pointless to tell players to try a strategy that has more risk, takes longer and has less reward.

Right, why should I suggest anyone do something other than what they complain burns them out. How wrong of me.

[Dysmetria]

Your arguments are getting silly. Is it simply your goal to have a /not signed at the bottom of my thread?

It's not all silly. Were it not for a Ungood's returning to try to shoot down nearly every positive post in this thread, it would have faded into obscurity days ago, instead of remaining near the top of page 1 and in the developer's faces for most of that time.

If this is such a big deal to you, become a VIP. Everyone is telling me how I am getting so much for so little, I am wondering why they are not jumping on the VIP bandwagon already.

Most premiums will never subscribe to the VIP plan, no matter how much more enticing Turbine tries to make it. Many premiums were drawn to this game for the sole reason that it did not require a monthly subscription, and that they could purchase the options they wanted outright instead. Lots of people that had been subscribed for years likewise converted to premium in the 21 months or so since they were given the option to do so.

None of them will want to pay to rent features they already purchased outright, while most all of them will want a way to purchase the ability to open dungeons on hard/elite and access to the bravery exp bonus without having to subscribe or pay for the overpriced one-time-use unlocks in the store. You can keep bumping threads like this trying to tell them all to sub till your fingers fall off, but they are still not going to consider doing so, and are still going to want a reasonably priced way to access the bravery bonus too. In the meantime we'll just have to harass the VIPs we know to unlock those dungeons for us.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Made an adjustment to the OP to incorporate an idea I saw elsewhere relating to losing access if bravery bonus is lost.

Hence:
3250 Favour Reward: Heroes Access.
A Hero character may access quests on hard as long as they have a running bravery streak. If they break their streak then they will lose access.
A Legendary character may access quests on hard or elite as long as they have a running bravery streak. If they break their streak then they will lose access (this could be streak type specific).

This incorporates a number of hurdles which constitutes a strategy to create considerable incentive to be VIP:
Considerable upfront financial cost (required to have purchased 95% of content)
Considerable upfront time cost (required to complete almost all quests on elite)
Considerable skill required (high level elite quests will probably need to be completed)
Other costs (need a strategy to open quests on elite or it will take 2-3x longer, need to organise groups for quests)
Moderate ongoing costs (it is a considerable cost to effectively not be able to enter a quest on normal)
Considerable restrictions (only available to TR'd characters, server exclusive)

With all of this combined with the new incentive to become VIP temporarily at least to unlock this option I think that overall it will have a positive influence on the VIP and the non-VIP community.

In particular, I don't think that non-VIPs will react positively to effectively being strong armed into picking up a subscription (be VIP or you don't get access to this experience). This is known as negative reinforcement and generally doesn't have positive outcomes. In contrast, my idea has multiple, positive reasons to take up a VIP subscription which I believe will have a much more positive influence on the state of the game.

[treefrog1976]

I don't know if this was mentioned in the thread at all, but I've seen a lot of people in favor of doing it for 3250 Favor, and a lot against. Here is a possible solution which could make most people happy (I know, there's just no pleasing some people):

3250 Favor:

Reward 1 - Consumable Item (similar to Blessing of the Silver Flame) which when used allows your TR the permanent ability to unlock Hard (as MadFloyd said, unlocking to Elite is a VIP perk). This would carry through as many TRs as you want, but would be character restricted, not serverwide.

Reward 2 - Your choice of +3/+4 Tome (something to reward the VIPs for being VIPs, or as an option for those who choose not to TR)

It's a simple solution which doesn't take anything away from VIPs, while rewarding Premium players to a lesser extent.