Suggestion: 3250 Favour: unlock hard/elite for TR1/2+

[Sircowdog]

On the topic of VIPs wanting there to be something worthwhile to grind out to 3000+ favor, what do you guys thing is an appropriate award? +4 tome? Heart of Wood? A fat TP bonus?

Barring the idea that Elite openers should be solely the realm of VIP, what do you think is a reasonable cost for an account option purchase of hard/elite unlocks from the TP store for TR toons only?

[Dysmetria]

On the topic of VIPs wanting there to be something worthwhile to grind out to 3000+ favor, what do you guys thing is an appropriate award? +4 tome? Heart of Wood? A fat TP bonus?

The Artificer or Druid class, or a new race.

Barring the idea that Elite openers should be solely the realm of VIP, what do you think is a reasonable cost for an account option purchase of hard/elite unlocks from the TP store for TR toons only?

I'd imagine 19999 or even 29999 would be appropriate, but I'm unsure why it would be for TR toons only. Can VIPs only open on hard/elite with TR toons?

[shores11]

/not signed

Only the VIP should ever be able to unlock all quests on elite on the first run. This is a business decision for Turbine to encourage players to go VIP as VIP's are scheduled revenue that they can depend on times the number of VIP accounts.

As for the comment of N*7/H/E this is a total myth and never has to be ran this way. Running quests like this of course will cause just about any player to get burnt out, I know I would. I have just as many if not more TR's than most players (7 in total, 2 multi TR'd) and I play on them all. I am a VIP and basically just run all quests on elite and by end game I am at level 20 on my TR. On my mulitple TR'd characters I have ran some of the higher XP quests on hard first but that means I run them a total of 2 times unless a guild mate needs help or its a raid.

[Ungood]

After taking the time to revisit the Bravery Bonus, and how it works, I hope to propose perhaps a compromise.

As opposed to taking the Unlock from the VIP, which is a perk of paying the sub and think we all can agree that this should not be taken from them. None of us would want the perks of the way we purchased the game to be changed or taken away.

But at the same time, with the way the Bravery Bonus works, there should be something in place to allow TR's to take full advantage of it.

So what I propose is a Steamroller effect to be put in place.

Once a TR (any TR) gains a 5 Bravery Streak (IE: capped their Bravery Bonus) they should be allowed to continue that streak for as long as they can keep it up, and thus be able to continually open future quests on whatever difficulty they have their streak in (IE: Hard OR Elite, not either, one or the other)

IF the TR interrupts the streak for any reason: IE: Dose a different difficulty or repeats a quest, enters a quest they are too high for, etc, etc, they can NO Longer Steamroller, until they build back to up a 5 Streak running.

They have to find a way to build up their 5 streak however, of their own accord, either by being VIP, Buying the Unlocks in the Store, or joining someone else party to get the higher opens.

Since this is not a True Unlock, as all it does is allow the individual TR to continue the streak they started. VIP could still unlock Elite for First Life builds, and would have it much easier to build back up a broken streak. In that regard, I do not believe the Perk of being a VIP is being taken away or muscled in upon.

As such I believe this would be a viable and balanced solution to the issue of the Bravery Bonus as it being applied to the game as it is now.

[wax_on_wax_off]

It seems many VIPs feel that the only reason to be a VIP is the elite unlocks.

Why does everyone keep suggesting that this idea will completely nullify any point in being VIP? Do people not have first/second life characters anymore? Have I not been clear enough that this option should only apply to Legendary characters (Hero characters opening hard is fine too mostly to provide a feeling of progression)?

Do VIPs think that every premium already has 3250 favour or that it is easy to get? Do VIPs think that every premium has every adventure pack? Do VIPs think that every premium would be capable of completing the needed quests on elite to unlock the option?

Devs didn't take any vote in the mater.

Did you read the Developer posts that I've quoted in this thread? Turns out that the potential loss of revenue from denying non-VIP players access to the Bravery Bonus and causing burn out or lesser sales of those in demand TR products is of an issue as well as maintaining VIP subscriptions.

In that regard, I do not see a single advantage to not putting it in the store for them and allowing them to chose their own path. in fact, for the life of me, the only way I see that balance struck is to put this in the store as that utilizes the concept and premise of the micro-transaction system being a viable alternative to paid sub.

I think this is a fine idea which would satisfactorily solve the problem but it doesn't personally appeal to me (for subjective reasons). Personally, I like the feeling of working towards something and finally unlocking it, I still remember the day that I unlocked Favoured Soul, was such a good day

How do you price it though? For starters, it's only necessary for Legendary characters. Secondly, it only provides a 5% XP bonus if maximising time/xp in many situations. I think that overall it would either be too expensive (and hence players wouldn't buy it and rely on the tried and tested method). Or it would be too cheap and many VIPs would cancel their subscription and just buy the account option. Perhaps the above 2 outcomes would overlap (different people have different ideas of what is too expensive, the overall outcome for the game could be bad; people burning out AND less VIP accounts).

After taking the time to revisit the Bravery Bonus, and how it works, I hope to propose perhaps a compromise.

As opposed to taking the Unlock from the VIP, which is a perk of paying the sub and think we all can agree that this should not be taken from them. None of us would want the perks of the way we purchased the game to be changed or taken away.

But at the same time, with the way the Bravery Bonus works, there should be something in place to allow TR's to take full advantage of it.

So what I propose is a Steamroller effect to be put in place.

Once a TR (any TR) gains a 5 Bravery Streak (IE: capped their Bravery Bonus) they should be allowed to continue that streak for as long as they can keep it up, and thus be able to continually open future quests on whatever difficulty they have their streak in (IE: Hard OR Elite, not either, one or the other)

IF the TR interrupts the streak for any reason: IE: Dose a different difficulty or repeats a quest, enters a quest they are too high for, etc, etc, they can NO Longer Steamroller, until they build back to up a 5 Streak running.

They have to find a way to build up their 5 streak however, of their own accord, either by being VIP, Buying the Unlocks in the Store, or joining someone else party to get the higher opens.

Since this is not a True Unlock, as all it does is allow the individual TR to continue the streak they started. VIP could still unlock Elite for First Life builds, and would have it much easier to build back up a broken streak. In that regard, I do not believe the Perk of being a VIP is being taken away or muscled in upon.

As such I believe this would be a viable and balanced solution to the issue of the Bravery Bonus as it being applied to the game as it is now.

Interesting idea, certainly a much easier hurdle than my idea which would be fine with me. Still, I think it's muscling in on VIP territory much more than my idea (which has much bigger hurdles than just getting in to 5 quests on elite).

Still, I really think there are some very good qualities to my idea:
1. Players will temporarily sub to VIP to unlock the favour reward (which gives a good chance of becoming permanent, simple salesmanship).
2. Players will permanently sub to VIP to access the Bravery Bonus without the massive favour grind (in contrast to buying a 1 off store unlock. I know many players who buy FvS and 32 point builds let alone this).
3. Players will buy more adventure packs to unlock the favour reward.
4. Players will buy more adventure packs to take advantage of the Bravery Bonus (which combines with 3 for exponential good feeling towards the idea of buying more adventure packs without really thinking through the likely hood of properly utilising those adventure packs).
5. VIPs won't straight away end their subscription and simply buy the store unlock.

I was thinking last night that another possible compromise is that when you attain 3250 favour that you unlock a store which sells:

Heroes Bell of Admission
Cost: 10 TP, 1 Epic Dungeon Token, 50,000 platinum.
Charges: 100
Function: Allows a Hero character (34 point build) to access a quest on Hard
Announce your presence to your enemies and strike fear into them!

Legendary Gong of Admission
Cost: 25 TP, 3 Epic Dungeon Token, 100,000 platinum.
Charges: 100
Function: Allows a Legendary character (36 point build) to access a quest on Elite
Announce your presence to your enemies and strike fear into them!

Perhaps this store could sell some other items which would be interesting to VIPs as well?

[mystafyi]

Wax,
I understand why you want elite unlock on tr2+. Here is another issue you might not have thought about with your idea of allowing tr's elite unlock.

This game allows folks to get TP by grinding out favor. if you can just elite and go as a F2P or premium, this will adversely effect turbines revenue. Yes, im sure many premiums spend alot of money in the DDO Store, but many do not. You cant have hard/elite unlocks available for 15-20 TP for each character.

TR1 is a joke... can skip 70% of the quests in game.
TR2 is a joke till around level 13-14. With the release of lvl12,13,15 and upcoming 17 packs, this too is also be a joke. I skip about 50% of all quests while TR'ing now.

The only thing hard about TR'ing now is not falling asleep at the keyboard grinding up another 4.378500 mil xp .................................................. ......

[Ungood]

Wax,
I understand why you want elite unlock on tr2+. Here is another issue you might not have thought about with your idea of allowing tr's elite unlock.

This game allows folks to get TP by grinding out favor. if you can just elite and go as a F2P or premium, this will adversely effect turbines revenue. Yes, im sure many premiums spend alot of money in the DDO Store, but many do not. You cant have hard/elite unlocks available for 15-20 TP for each character.

TR1 is a joke... can skip 70% of the quests in game.
TR2 is a joke till around level 13-14. With the release of lvl12,13,15 and upcoming 17 packs, this too is also be a joke. I skip about 50% of all quests while TR'ing now.

The only thing hard about TR'ing now is not falling asleep at the keyboard grinding up another 4.378500 mil xp .................................................. ......

I agree. The Bravery Bonus is a nice boon, not a requirement. The reality is, Taking something from a VIP is not the way to go, and risks alienating them. But, If it really matters that much to anyone to have this unlock, then sub up.

If you do not feel that VIP is worth the cost, then you can understand why VIP's don't want anything taken from them.

[Gremmlynn]

I'm sure if Turbine feels it's in their best interest to allow non-VIPs easy access to the bravery bonus, they will find a way to do it. If not, as there is are inconvenient ways to do it so nobody is totally left out, they will simply tell us that that bit of convenience is a VIP perk. All any perk is here is a way to encourage people to give them money in a certain way, not something anyone has either earned or "deserves".

[Angelz_Fire]

I would gladly agree with floyd a possibility of earing unlocks with tr characters, I think this could be a great idea. I still disagree with 3000 favor reward unlocking a vip perk. Besides my rogue has 3760 favor now something a little better could be planned to reward that, beyond something I already have access to with my vip subscription.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I agree. The Bravery Bonus is a nice boon, not a requirement. The reality is, Taking something from a VIP is not the way to go, and risks alienating them. But, If it really matters that much to anyone to have this unlock, then sub up.

If you do not feel that VIP is worth the cost, then you can understand why VIP's don't want anything taken from them.

That's fine that you have that attitude but the impression that I've got repeatedly from Turbine is that Premium is designed as a viable alternative to VIP. It isn't a viable alternative if you have to spend significantly more than the cost of a sub for individual unlocks or miss out on up to 50% first time bonus xp from the bravery bonus.

The only thing hard about TR'ing now is not falling asleep at the keyboard grinding up another 4.378500 mil xp .................................................. ......

This is the issue. This risk of falling asleep causes burn out (cessation of revenue) or less TR'ing (reduction of revenue).

The introduction of the Bravery Bonus is aimed at maintaining a good income for Turbine by avoiding the 2 above issues and that income is comprised of both VIP and Premium accounts. Hence, figuring out a way to make the bonus available to both account types makes good economic sense.

My idea is aimed at encouraging take up of subs (at least temporarily), increasing rates of TRs and increasing sales of adventure packs. This means more money for Turbine and more fun for us!

Seriously, what VIPs would cancel their subscriptions if this suggestion was implemented?
For a VIP to consider cancelling their subscription there would likely have to be quite a few considerations:
1. 3250 favour unlocked on home server.
2. Never wanting elite access on a first/second life character.
3. Never wanting to change server.
4. Good quantity of epic dungeon tokens (considering my latest adjustment to my suggestion).

On the flipside, with this suggestion many premiums will consider going VIP temporarily to unlock the option or permanently to take advantage of the Bravery Bonus without bothering with such a difficult grind. Additionally, premium players will buy more adventure packs to take advantage of the bravery bonus or unlock the reward and spend more money on True Hearts and XP pots as they enjoy TR'ing more and don't burn out. All this means profit for Turbine!

32 Point Builds is still one of the highest grossing sales in the DDO store kind of indicating that most people probably wouldn't be willing to grind to more than double what is required for 32 point builds and would instead go VIP for access to elite for ALL their characters, not just their legendary ones.

[Ungood]

That's fine that you have that attitude but the impression that I've got repeatedly from Turbine is that Premium is designed as a viable alternative to VIP. It isn't a viable alternative if you have to spend significantly more than the cost of a sub for individual unlocks or miss out on up to 50% first time bonus xp from the bravery bonus.

And it is not viable if you do not pay real world cash for what other people are paying real world cash for. So if you are going to propose an alternative, start talking in cash amounts and Micro-transactions and stop with the ideas of Favor unlocks and paying epic tokens and in-game plat.

Currently a premium player can unlock Elite @ 76 TP per unlock and Unlock Hard @ 52 TP Per Unlock. Since it is in the store already, their is no reason to put in the game in any other manner or fashion.

Equally so, it has been made clear that the VIP will get perks not available to other payment plans. This was not hidden or slipped in, in fact, when I started VIP they had the Hard Unlock, and they raised it to Elite. This was part of the Perk of being a VIP. Premium and F2P knew this was unique to the VIP package and by not being VIP accepted that.

So. if you want to make available that account option, it needs to cost a sufficient amount to make the VIP still feel as if they are getting a deal paying their sub. IE: It better be determinately expensive. Again, with the way things are, no reason to change the status-quo. The unlock is in the store, job done , Go home, play some DDO, and call it a night.

25TP, 3 Epic tokens and 100K plat for what amount it a full Account Option of Elite Unlock is laughable, I'll cut my sub today and just go in that direction, that is how laughably cheep that is, in fact. Turbine can expect most VIP to see that and basically think "What? I can get this for free, BAH. I'm not paying sub for something I can get for free"

Now I am not sure where people get this idea that VIP do not want free things, or that they do not like the idea of earning free stuff for in game effort. They do. I do, at least. I took great pride in earning my 32 point build the first time. I like my 25 extra TP with each 100 Favor, and all that jazz. I pay VIP but that does not mean I did not work hard for the cash I spend on this game and I, like everyone else, do not want to be cheated or have things taken from me. Would you like to have re-pay for the packs you bought, because Turbine thought that a one time payment was too much a perk and decided to make a 2 year lease instead, to keep things in line to what the VIP pays? I do not think so.

So stop already with trying to take away a VIP perk for free (or near to free) It's a bad Idea. It's a slap in the face. It's not cool and it's not good.

I agree with Xand, this is why Dev stay away with this kind of stuff. There is a good chance they see this and just believe leaving well enough alone is their best option.

And I agree with mystafyi, No one needs the Bravery Bonus, players have TR'ed many countless times already without it, life will go on. With the increase of Elite first time (80% WOW!) It will be even easier. Players will burn out on a game from just playing it to much. As others have said, n7,h,e is a hoax and not needed. I have never done that in a single quest, and working on my 3rd life now. With the Current scale in EXP I expect to not even need to do a quest more then twice this time through. So the Brevarey Bonous becomes a little perk to the VIP or very resouurceful premium players.

[mystafyi]

the impression that I've got repeatedly from Turbine is that Premium is designed as a viable alternative to VIP.

perhaps your impression is wrong

Seriously, what VIPs would cancel their subscriptions if this suggestion was implemented?

I would as well as many others.

[Ungood]

I would as well as many others.

I would.

(remember, canceling a Sub is not Quitting the Game)

[wax_on_wax_off]

perhaps your impression is wrong

Perhaps it is.

I'd say at this stage that the arguments are getting quite circular as the VIP posters seem much more interested in maintaining their status rather than what is best for the overall health of the game.

As it is, value is being added to being VIP through the Bravery Bonus without any comparable increase to value for non-VIP accounts.

I guess we'll see if it goes live like this and then how it all turns out ...

(Personally I think it probably will go live as is and then bring non-VIPs to the party in U12 perhaps to catch a possible small migration to VIP as a result of the Bravery Bonus)

I would as well as many others.

You meet all the criteria? You only play with Legendary characters? You would be prepared to pay small amounts of TP/plat/epic tokens for your elite opens?

[Dysmetria]

it has been made clear that the VIP will get perks not available to other payment plans. This was not hidden or slipped in, in fact, when I started VIP they had the Hard Unlock, and they raised it to Elite. This was part of the Perk of being a VIP. Premium and F2P knew this was unique to the VIP package and by not being VIP accepted that.

The problem here is that people chose to downgrade from VIP to premium, or to go premium initially based on the existing options for VIPs/premiums. Some griped when the VIP opening was raised from hard to elite, more are griping now because VIPs are the only ones that can access this new bravery bonus. Many had no idea that they could eventually subscribe for $10 per month instead of $15, or that they would be able to get 1000TP per month instead of 500TP.

These things may have convinced many premiums to instead subscribe, and many longtime subscribers to continue subscribing were they all part of the VIP package initially, but now that premiums have paid $100 or $150 or more to access most every VIP perk on a permanant basis, they are very reluctant to sign up for VIP now. Instead they resent any new perk VIPs are given, as evidenced by the many complaints and threads on this issue, and ask to be able to pay for access to those perks as well.

76TP per elite unlock is simply too expensive. I can't imagine any premium buying those regularly. To run just 100 quests in a month on elite, that would be $76 dollars per month. All premiums are asking for is a way to have a reasonably priced access to the bravery bonus as well. They are willing to pay, just not 5-10 times what VIPs do each month for only one of the many VIP perks.

Alternately they could make this bravery bonus take effect the first time you do hard and elite, instead of the first time you do the dungeon. VIPs would keep their precious elite opening ability, yet won't be harassed by friends, guildies, and strangers every minute to open on elite by everyone else, premiums and f2pers would have a way to access to the bravery bonus, and everyone would be able to get the bonus twice per dungeon instead of once.

[Ungood]

Perhaps it is.

I'd say at this stage that the arguments are getting quite circular as the VIP posters seem much more interested in maintaining their status rather than what is best for the overall health of the game.

Money going in is good for the game right! Thus VIP expecting anyone else who wants their perks to have to pay big for it, is good for the game.

See, we want what is best for the game too.

[Ungood]

The problem here is that people chose to downgrade from VIP to premium,

Key word. Downgrade. They knew some perks would no longer be there. That was the choice they made. If they regret that choice, they can opt to return to VIP. I pay 120 annual for my VIP sub. If I ever miss a payment, I loose everything the game offers me. Should I come to the forums and demand that I be given the packs and adventures and other options because I paid all that money! I paid as much if not more so then any Premium for those packs, I should be entitled keep them like a Premium player.

That was not part of the deal.

We make our choices as we play. We can not predict the future, we can only work with what we have. We base our decisions on that and move on.

Every Premium player knew that the only way they would get an Elite Unlock was to pay that 76TP per quest, or grind it N,H first to unlock Elite. That was part of the deal they made.

Now. As I said. I am not against making an Account Option, to allow them to Open Elite or Hard. but, I am against making it near to free. If the VIP pays for it, the Premium should pay for it. That is the way the world should work.

76TP per elite unlock is simply too expensive. I can't imagine any premium buying those regularly. To run just 100 quests in a month on elite, that would be $76 dollars per month. All premiums are asking for is a way to have a reasonably priced access to the bravery bonus as well. They are willing to pay, just not 5-10 times what VIPs do each month for only one of the many VIP perks.

So far all this topic as been, is Premium players trying to get a VIP perk for free. That is wrong, in every way. That is what the problem is.

Step up and start taking money and real cash for this Account Option, then I am listening. And while I admit, 76 dollars a month to match a VIP is a little pricey if you want to match a VIP in that one aspect, but remember, Premium was never passed off as a "Cheaper alternative" just an alternative.

Added: But really, why all this fuss. If elite unlock is that important, you can get a full month of it, for 10 dollars and get 1000 Points thrown in! what exactly is the problem here?

[Uska]

Perhaps it is.

I'd say at this stage that the arguments are getting quite circular as the VIP posters seem much more interested in maintaining their status rather than what is best for the overall health of the game.

As it is, value is being added to being VIP through the Bravery Bonus without any comparable increase to value for non-VIP accounts.

I guess we'll see if it goes live like this and then how it all turns out ...

(Personally I think it probably will go live as is and then bring non-VIPs to the party in U12 perhaps to catch a possible small migration to VIP as a result of the Bravery Bonus)




You meet all the criteria? You only play with Legendary characters? You would be prepared to pay small amounts of TP/plat/epic tokens for your elite opens?

IF they give way my last perk to cheaply I will be gone as they will have devauled my sub to far and its not a option for me to buy a bunch of tps and buy what I get cheaply now it leaves a bad taste in my month now selling to TR's only for a reasonable cost is I guess but a account wide is very distasteful to me and will be my final straw.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Now. As I said. I am not against making an Account Option, to allow them to Open Elite or Hard. but, I am against making it near to free. If the VIP pays for it, the Premium should pay for it. That is the way the world should work.

I think this is worse for your desire for an exclusive perk.

If all it takes is a few thousand TPs in the DDO store to access this unique perk then half the VIP community would drop subscription overnight and be confident that they could have everything anyway.

The intention of my suggestion is to make it so difficult to qualify for the access that most players will stay VIP and more players will become VIP (either temporarily or permanently).

See the difference?

[Ungood]

I think this is worse for your desire for an exclusive perk.

If all it takes is a few thousand TPs in the DDO store to access this unique perk then half the VIP community would drop subscription overnight and be confident that they could have everything anyway.

The intention of my suggestion is to make it so difficult to qualify for the access that most players will stay VIP and more players will become VIP (either temporarily or permanently).

See the difference?

The difference is your idea takes the perk away for free, mine simply makes it an expensive account option.

But since you can get the unlock elite for 76TP per, it is already an expensive Account Option. As far as I see it, the best course at this point seems to be leave it all well enough alone. As Xand said. Devs might look at this and just walk away. The high price will have the same effect as the high difficulty you propose and inspire players who want the unlock that badly to be motivated to be VIP even if only temporally. End result, leave it alone and it should have the same effect as your trying to make happen with this overly complex favor reward system.

No Work. Same result. Everyone wins.

/Not Signed