Suggestion: 3250 Favour: unlock hard/elite for TR1/2+

[Cauthey]

/signed for a high favor unlock for hard.

/unsigned for a favor unlock for elite.

3000+ favor pretty much requires that a Premium player buy a lot of the content. Those purchases reflect support for the game. That does not mean "VIP," but it should show for something.

However, I am very adamant that VIPs retain perks that Premium players don't get. And as many have said (other places, and probably here), Elite unlocks is really the only significant perk that VIPs get.

[wax_on_wax_off]

/signed for a high favor unlock for hard.

/unsigned for a favor unlock for elite.

3000+ favor pretty much requires that a Premium player buy a lot of the content. Those purchases reflect support for the game. That does not mean "VIP," but it should show for something.

However, I am very adamant that VIPs retain perks that Premium players don't get. And as many have said (other places, and probably here), Elite unlocks is really the only significant perk that VIPs get.

I get so confused, it seems like many people are ok with a server wide hard unlock for all toons which is totally wrong. Is this what you're suggesting here? Firstly, first life characters don't need it. Secondly, it doesn't adequately address the XP obstacles that Legendary (36 point build) characters face (doing H,N*7,E would be lower than N*7,H,E). Thirdly, a hard unlock isn't attractive enough to bother attaining such a high water mark.

Let me repeat, doing H, N*7, E (which is what non-VIP characters would have the option of doing with your suggestion) would be worse XP than N*7, H, E.

Hence, overall, it's a failure.

Square one.

Basic facts:
1. Legendary characters (VIP and non-VIP) NEED access to the full capacity of the Bravery Bonus to make leveling interesting enough to generate revenue (adventure pack sales, xp pot sales, true hearts of wood sales etc).
2. Non-legendary characters DO NOT need this access.
3. VIPs should maintain this as an exclusive perk as much as possible.

How to maintain exclusivity as much as possible? Well, 3250 Favour on the server seems a reasonable enough hurdle that will make it a pretty exclusive accomplishment (both by purchased content and by effort).

[Ungood]

This issue isn't about lack of high water mark favour rewards, it's about non-VIP accounts getting screwed with the new Bravery Bonus.

Excuse me but...

Can't we please be objective about this rather than "oh my god we are getting screwed!"?

Humm? Can we please?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Excuse me but...



Humm? Can we please?

+1, touche.

[elraido]

How about, besides tr'ing into all classes, you need max favor in order to have the completionist feat.

Personally, I don't see having the ability to unlock hard/elite as a bonus at all for reaching favor. VIP's already get it, which was already mentioned. It would be redundant and pointless to give it to them...they wouldn't notice anything once they hit that mark.

[mystafyi]

Basic facts:
1. Legendary characters (VIP and non-VIP) NEED access to the full capacity of the Bravery Bonus to make leveling interesting enough to generate revenue (adventure pack sales, xp pot sales, true hearts of wood sales etc).
2. Non-legendary characters DO NOT need this access.
3. VIPs should maintain this as an exclusive perk as much as possible.

I have issue with #1. XP pots and TR hearts are the best selling items currently, so they dont need to change a thing.

And #3. VIP needs more perks not less.
Do you honestly think this wouldnt be a slap in the face to VIP's? They already got the shaft with having to buy/favor unlock FVS and soon to be Artificer.

Turbine needs both vip subscriptions AND premium players to keep this end of shelf life game running. take away vip perks and you take away your ability to play this game at all

[wax_on_wax_off]

I have issue with #1. XP pots and TR hearts are the best selling items currently, so they dont need to change a thing.

And #3. VIP needs more perks not less.
Do you honestly think this wouldnt be a slap in the face to VIP's? They already got the shaft with having to buy/favor unlock FVS and soon to be Artificer.

Turbine needs both vip subscriptions AND premium players to keep this end of shelf life game running. take away vip perks and you take away your ability to play this game at all

Regarding #1, it's awesome to hear that they are the best selling items and it's important to keep them being so! The issue is that with the current structure there isn't any incentive for players that buy those items to run a variety of quests which inevitably leads to burnout (from repetition).

Madfloyd has identified the issue and I've simply relayed it. If the players burn out (VIP or not) then the revenue stops, end of life game indeed.

Regarding #3. Why do you think that VIPs will need to buy Artificer? Everything that VIPs have to buy from the store is available as a favour reward so either it will instantly be available to VIPs (which I imagine to be the case) or it will be able to be unlocked through favour (highly unlikely but possible).

In all likely hood there is a nice VIP perk coming your way, it's called Artificer!

[Ungood]

In all likely hood there is a nice VIP perk coming your way, it's called Artificer!

The problem lies not with the account option itself, or making a store option to unlock higher difficulties, the keystone issue is it deprives the VIP from what could be a viable favor reward. IE: Everyone else gets something and they get nothing. Ergo: Thus making the game less fun for them when they are paying more for that fun.

I think we can all agree that favor rewards should be, well, rewards, that are geared for everyone.

I do not feel that fairness in game it is too much for us VIP's to ask.

PS: Added: To reiterate: I am not against an unlock option to be put in the store or something along those lines. Since VIP's pay for it, I am cool with anyone and everyone else also paying for it. In my mind it is no more or less inline with a Premium buying War Forged or Monk, or even an adventure pack. What I am against depriving a VIP from having the same fun of receiving a viable reward that premium would get for the same accomplishment.

[Cauthey]

I get so confused, it seems like many people are ok with a server wide hard unlock for all toons which is totally wrong. Is this what you're suggesting here? Firstly, first life characters don't need it. Secondly, it doesn't adequately address the XP obstacles that Legendary (36 point build) characters face (doing H,N*7,E would be lower than N*7,H,E). Thirdly, a hard unlock isn't attractive enough to bother attaining such a high water mark.

Let me repeat, doing H, N*7, E (which is what non-VIP characters would have the option of doing with your suggestion) would be worse XP than N*7, H, E.

Hence, overall, it's a failure.

Square one.

Basic facts:
1. Legendary characters (VIP and non-VIP) NEED access to the full capacity of the Bravery Bonus to make leveling interesting enough to generate revenue (adventure pack sales, xp pot sales, true hearts of wood sales etc).
2. Non-legendary characters DO NOT need this access.
3. VIPs should maintain this as an exclusive perk as much as possible.

How to maintain exclusivity as much as possible? Well, 3250 Favour on the server seems a reasonable enough hurdle that will make it a pretty exclusive accomplishment (both by purchased content and by effort).

I had not considered the XP grind ramifications. Your points on the matter are strong.

However, I was only favoring allowing for the unlock of Hard in order to preserve some kind of perk for VIPs. I'm not a VIP, though I feel that those that contribute to Turbine monthly really ought to have access to things above and beyond the Premium player.

[Xaxx]

I'm glad you think that this is an us vs them situation. I'm trying to be as objective as I can.

1. Elite unlock would still be exclusive to VIP for all but Legendary characters.
2. Hard unlock would still be exclusive to VIP for all but Hero (34 point) and Legendary characters.
3. Hard/elite unlock would still be exclusive to VIP except for free/premium players have jumped significant hurdles:
3i. Need probably 95% of adventure packs (otherwise have to buy guest passes).
3ii. Need to have completed 90% of content on elite on the server.

Free/premium player wants to change server? Has to farm to 3250 favour again.
Free/premium player wants to level up a first life character quickly through the bravery bonus? Has to buy unlocks or get an opener.

Don't want to run almost every quest in the game to get access for your Hero/Legendary characters? Go VIP.

In case you missed it I'm not the one who turned it into an us versus them...oh and incase you missed it you mentioned some key words... you said "would still be" and "for all but" which removes the exclusivity no matter how small. It then no longer becomes a perk for being a vip because you can gain it another way.

There is no way that the unlocks should be opened outside of vip... PERIOD. I dont think that should even be up for discussion. As I said in my previous post.... fix the flippin system that caused all this or dont and leave the screw job where it lies. Also doin this your offering another boon to trs... but yet that boon means nothing to vip trs... so once again your rewarding others and taking away something from subscribers.

In either case unlock this way or unlock via store, your offering something to someone else that is already in the vips area. Now most of you seem to see nothing wrong with this. Offering something to half your customer base and not caring about the other half. Where is this any different than the bravery system as in place on lama now. It's offering something to half the customer base, but pretty much ignoring the other half. Doing it this way has that half up and arms and ready to tell vips "well boys this isnt fair so we want your toys". Yet for the other half of the subscriber base to come out against it we get rebuffed with posts like above.

Sorry dude your not trying to be objective.... you trying to find a way to get your hands on something you want badly and that isnt quite as bs as just putting it in the store. This is where my problem with all these posts is at. Look guys I dont wanna see premiums get screwed as per my earlier post. I want to see a fix for the system that doesnt screw ya.... but I am NOT WILLING to let that fix be to screw vips either. Is that so flipping hard to understand. People made their purchasing decisions long ago. If you bought the base version, and there was an upgrade... a year later when you realize **** I need the upgrade, you dont get to go back to the manufacturer and demand they fix what you bought with the upgrade because your special and you deserve it. The fix for the situation is simply to leave the upgrade useful but not to make it somewhat mandatory.

So as I see it there is only three reasonable and simple solutions.

1. Fix the bravery system give a mulligan on a first run if its normal/hard. Yes i know this wont satisfy the premiums either as people will then whine that they cant do elite right away and vips still can. So run 5 quests in arow on normal that 1 per quest is the mulligan per quest... then go the quests on hard.. hard bravery bonus stacking... then run them on elite.. elite bonus stacking. Do vips still hold an edge this way... yeah. Do vips hold a leveling edge now.... yeah. Hence the perk being available period. It should make everyone happy, but it wont, but its the easiest answer so that premiums dont get screwed by the new systems, and vips dont get screwed by the premiums wanting to shift the screw job of the new system.

2. Leave it as is. As per many posts, there is a store unlock available at a 1 per shot deal. Yes its expensive, and yes its only 1 per shot... but its ALREADY in the store. Also other people could open the quest for you. Do I like this idea...no personally I dont, I like numbers 1 or 3. If its left as is I wouldnt mind them making the unlocks that are currently in the store cheaper or maybe being a skeleton key that works x amount of times or a potion that works for x amount of time. They couldnt be to cheap but enough that people could use them as they saw fit *see experience pots*. For those saying oh wait a partial onlock is fine but not a full... you xaxx are full of bs. Yes the slippery slope argument... but on the other hand for vitually all countries smoking is legal to a degree but any *hardcore* drugs are not... some drugs are lawful some arent, I see no reason to treat this differently.

3. Scrap the system. Turn the exp up for first time for hard and elite like it was, scrap the whole bravery idea period, and wait on whatever other idea the devs had *apparently as per a post on lama this idea came from an idea to help trs with xp and another xp system is comming somewhere down the line*. I know turbine usually wont scrap a systme they worked on but the stacking elemental savant debuff is one system they worked on, to many people said oh my god its bs.. so they scraped it. Now you have 1 elemental debuff. So as per the same in this case.... to many people saying its bs. Ok well its bs then lets scrap it, I know most of those calling bs want to fix it by somehow getting their hands on unlocks... but this is the way that doesnt screw vips or premiums.



Now I know theres probably another way to go about it, these are just the easiest as I see them that dont send the screw job to vips. You wanna find a way to fix it that doesnt give premiums access to something they chose not to have access to previously... cool I'm all for it. Doing it any way that grants anyone outside of vips the unlock I'm not cool with. I know its not taking something from vips... its simply giving something to vips and yet not returning anything to the vips. This is the exact same as its current implementation. Currently bravery basically gives something to vips, but not to the premiums, the premiums still have access to it but its basically given to vips. The premiums view this as a screw job but cant seem to fathom how the previous part is a screw job.

*Yes i know I've seen some premiums posting to scrap the system or fix the system so it doesnt screw vips, to those who are being reasonable I know my bit about well if they wanna screw us let them get screwed sounds harsh. I'm not expounding that as a true fix to the situation. Yet on the other side if it came down to a its gonna be premiums getting screwed or vips getting screwed.. what percentage of the premium players that have posted have come down with the I dont care what happens to the vips as long as I can get my hands on the unlocks somehow?

As a last note.....lets face it giving the unlocks to tr 1 and tr 2 would simply be the first step in leading to the perm unlocks being in the store. You know that once that first step is taken that people 6 months down the road will start complaining again that they want the unlocks and well since giving them out to one section worked, vips wont mind giving it out to the rest. Poof.... it accomplishes the same thing in the long run as many are trying to accomplish now.

So I appreiciate the op and others trying to find a better way other than just *stick it in the store* yet as above giving the unlock in any way shape or form to someone who is not vip erodes it and will probably just end up there anway. I dont think any solution that involves not tweaking the system but instead just give away the vip perk via tr, favor, store points, anything at all will work. Fix the system so its not screwing anyone... period.... end of story... end of my part of the discussion. I fully expect people to continue on with ways to get their hands on the unlock... how much of this massive amount of complaining is that they actually want to use the system, how much of it is as we've seen posts *atleast one crops up every few weeks* that just want the unlock system to be in the store or free or anything as long as tehy can get their hands on it someway without being vip. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say half and half.

[Ungood]

So I appreiciate the op and others trying to find a better way other than just *stick it in the store* yet as above giving the unlock in any way shape or form to someone who is not vip erodes it and will probably just end up there anway. I dont think any solution that involves not tweaking the system but instead just give away the vip perk via tr, favor, store points, anything at all will work. Fix the system so its not screwing anyone... period.... end of story... end of my part of the discussion. I fully expect people to continue on with ways to get their hands on the unlock... how much of this massive amount of complaining is that they actually want to use the system, how much of it is as we've seen posts *atleast one crops up every few weeks* that just want the unlock system to be in the store or free or anything as long as tehy can get their hands on it someway without being vip. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say half and half.

I don't see the Unlock as anything other then an Account Option. Sure I pay for it, but I do not get any joy in denying it to anyone else, nor does it make me feel better by having as it I am sitting above anyone because I can unlock Elite. Since I realize I get it because I pay for it, I would more then gladly put this Account Option in the store for the players really want it. It neither hurts me physically or robs my pocket to see them have available the same things I get for my paid sub. Personally I do not want to deprive my fellow players from what they view as a game necessity, equally so, I do not want to be deprived of what I feel should be part of the game fun.

In that regard, I do not see a single advantage to not putting it in the store for them and allowing them to chose their own path. in fact, for the life of me, the only way I see that balance struck is to put this in the store as that utilizes the concept and premise of the micro-transaction system being a viable alternative to paid sub.

Or such is my humble feelings on this matter.

[Xaxx]

I don't see the Unlock as anything other then an Account Option. Sure I pay for it, but I do not get any joy in denying it to anyone else, nor does it make me feel better by having as it I am sitting above anyone because I can unlock Elite. Since I realize I get it because I pay for it, I would more then gladly put this Account Option in the store for the players really want it. It neither hurts me physically or robs my pocket to see them have available the same things I get for my paid sub. Personally I do not want to deprive my fellow players from what they view as a game necessity, equally so, I do not want to be deprived of what I feel should be part of the game fun.

In that regard, I do not see a single advantage to not putting it in the store for them and allowing them to chose their own path. in fact, for the life of me, the only way I see that balance struck is to put this in the store as that utilizes the concept and premise of the micro-transaction system being a viable alternative to paid sub.

Or such is my humble feelings on this matter.

Understood, and if it was simply an acount option, I could see that to. But its advertised as one of the vip *perks*. Its not a normal option, its a perk for a continuing subscription. To add it to the store would simply be to move it from perk to account option. I amongst others *maybe you amongst others didnt* chose to go this route with the perks involved. Some vips are fine with it, just as some premiums have said they dont want to see vips get hit. The premiums chose their own path when they decided to pony up for content packs and not subscription when they knew subscription got things that they didnt.

You see no problem in allowing them to choose their own path..... cool. They chose it before, I see no problem with them having already chosen the path their on. So it all stays copasetic. If they get to rechoose their path, do I get to rechoose mine and have turbine issue me back tubine points for all the money I've spent on subscription *minus the 500 a month* twoards turbine points. Nope thats not gonna happen, I dont get to rechoose my choice of path, I see no reason to grant that choice to the other half of the population then.

Fix the bravery system, leave vips alone.... or dont fix the bravery sytem, but leave vips alone..... simply leave vips alone, and yes stripping perks that are supposed to be only vip things is in no way leaving vips alone. The preview periods have gotten shorter and shorter, the lamania preview ability is no longer existent (everyone can take look at everything), the extra stuff.... everyone else can get.. those extra 4 character slots vips get.... oh yeah you can still buy them to (every account is capped at 30 slots vip or premium.. so if a vip buys all those slots expecting to get 34... nope its 30). They advertise vips as getting access to stuff that you dont get as premium.... if the unlock is to change.... isnt that false advertising really?

Anyway I've said my bit, I'm not gonna argue this or turn it into a flame war, I dont want that. I want to see a solution before it hits live that is satisfactory to every kind of account. There are several but most people dont want to listen to them, they simply want a way to get to the unlocks.... that seems kinda funny doesnt it? Makes you almost think people wanting the unlocks is the issue not the bravery system. No favor, store, tr, bs to the unlocks... fix or scrap the bravery system.


*edit*

Another thought crossed my mind, I wonder how many of the people complaining and trying to come up with ways to access the unlock have bought turbine points in the last month or two. I wonder this because fixing the bravery system is a game play issue, your account not having access to the unlocks is an account issue. Now unless Im mistaken, your only suppose to recieve gauranteed acount system help for 30 or 60 days after the last time you spent money on an account right? So how many of the people posting about this have no right what so ever to post about it since they no longer have any right to expect account system change since they havent spent money on tp within the alotted period of time.

So I do believe anyone who falls outside of that time frame who is talking about account based stuff rather than the actual bravery systems opinions need count for virtually nada, which I believe would wipe out what... 85% of the premiums who post? The vips on the other hand, are entitled to account support and yet their the ones the majority of the premiums who are probably no longer entitled to it wish to hit. Seems kinda funny if turbine listens to the people who are no longer entitled to account support over those who are on an account based issue... doesnt it? Dont get me wrong I'm not trying to be an ahat... its just another way to look at the problem some people wish to create.

So come on guys stick to posts about how to fix the system not your precieved injustice of the unlocks and ways for you to get your hands on said unlocks.

[Ungood]

Understood, and if it was simply an acount option, I could see that to. But its advertised as one of the vip *perks*. Its not a normal option, its a perk for a continuing subscription. To add it to the store would simply be to move it from perk to account option. I amongst others *maybe you amongst others didnt* chose to go this route with the perks involved. Some vips are fine with it, just as some premiums have said they dont want to see vips get hit. The premiums chose their own path when they decided to pony up for content packs and not subscription when they knew subscription got things that they didnt.

While I will admit, I have no reserves about putting the Unlock in the store, I see what you are saying as well.

Equally so even without the unlock a player could run say a series of 10 quests on normal, then run 5 of them again on hard, and thus get the bravery bonus, then run those 5 again on elite and add the bravery bonus to the extra first time elite exp and the extra bravery bonus, then run the last 5 quests on hard and elite with the elite maxed bravery bonus and be swimming in exp at this point.

I was planning on doing that anyway, even without the unlock, because that maximizes my exp gain and allows me gain all the first time bonus to exp gain. Then I cycle it again with a new series of 10 quests. Imposes a fun alternative to Window Farming.

[Dysmetria]

Equally so even without the unlock a player could run say a series of 10 quests on normal, then run 5 of them again on hard, and thus get the bravery bonus, then run those 5 again on elite and add the bravery bonus to the extra first time elite exp and the extra bravery bonus, then run the last 5 quests on hard and elite with the elite maxed bravery bonus and be swimming in exp at this point.

It was my understanding that you would not get the bravery bonus for hard/elite if you had done the dungeon on any other difficulty setting already, and that you couldn't even get the bonus for both hard and elite but had to choose between them.

[Ungood]

It was my understanding that you would not get the bravery bonus for hard/elite if you had done the dungeon on any other difficulty setting already, and that you couldn't even get the bonus for both hard and elite but had to choose between them.

Tested. And I am Wrong. You are right.

If you do normal you can no longer get a bravery bonus from the quest, even if you later do hard/elite. My personal feeling on that method is that it "sucks".

Now that I paid attention to it, and tested it, If they made it so Bravery Bonus behaved as I first proposed if could be used:

even without the unlock a player could run say a series of 10 quests on normal, then run 5 of them again on hard, and thus get the bravery bonus, then run those 5 again on elite and add the bravery bonus to the extra first time elite exp and the extra bravery bonus, then run the last 5 quests on hard and elite with the elite maxed bravery bonus and be swimming in exp at this point.

This would fix this entire issue and also make EXP abundant to the players.

[Sircowdog]

Oh and if your asking how vips are getting screwed... alot of us went and stayed vip for the unlocks.... I'd have went premiums LOOOONG ago if they said that the unlocks were comming to the store..

Hard and Elite unlocks are available in the store already. Just on a one-time-use item instead of an account wide option.

[Sircowdog]

I don't see the Unlock as anything other then an Account Option. Sure I pay for it, but I do not get any joy in denying it to anyone else, nor does it make me feel better by having as it I am sitting above anyone because I can unlock Elite. Since I realize I get it because I pay for it, I would more then gladly put this Account Option in the store for the players really want it. It neither hurts me physically or robs my pocket to see them have available the same things I get for my paid sub. Personally I do not want to deprive my fellow players from what they view as a game necessity, equally so, I do not want to be deprived of what I feel should be part of the game fun.

In that regard, I do not see a single advantage to not putting it in the store for them and allowing them to chose their own path. in fact, for the life of me, the only way I see that balance struck is to put this in the store as that utilizes the concept and premise of the micro-transaction system being a viable alternative to paid sub.

Or such is my humble feelings on this matter.

That pretty much sums it up. Which is why I said many many post ago that it was the mostly likely option to address the issue, despite my own personal feelings of liking the option of a high-favor unlock.

Maybe the purchase option from the store would only apply to TR toons, as opposed to the VIP option being available all the time for even new toons? Not ideal, I suppose, since the issue is really only about TR toons anyway.

[Jandric]

Problem: Legendary characters (regardless of account type) need access to the full potential of the Bravery bonus to make it worthwhile enough to level and hence maximise revenue from XP pots, adventure packs and true hearts of wood.
Solution: Detailed below.

Caveat: Hard access only isn't an option as in 99% of situations it would give better XP/minute to run N*7, H, E. Elite access gives ~5% XP advantage in most situations.

Having followed the off topic discussion in the other thread I wanted to submit an idea inspired by the below comments:





Solution to the specific issue of multiple TR'd characters being restricted (by time) to patterns of N*7/H/E runs which is boring and causes burn outs:

3250 Favour Reward: Heroes Access.
This server wide reward allows a Hero character (TR1) to enter a quest on hard and a Legendary character (TR2+) to enter a quest on elite.

Possible variations:
- make it cost something (perhaps 1 TP/1 Epic Dungeon Token Fragment/1k plat per open)

What does everyone think?

As long as 3250 favor gives a VIP all of the packs for free- Sure.

This will not/should not be solved by giving elite unlocks, otherwise there is no point to be a VIP.

[Dysmetria]

As long as 3250 favor gives a VIP all of the packs for free- Sure.

This will not/should not be solved by giving elite unlocks, otherwise there is no point to be a VIP.

It seems many VIPs feel that the only reason to be a VIP is the elite unlocks. Perhaps instead they should just allow people to get the bravery bonus for doing a quest the first time they do it on hard and elite, instead of only if they do it on hard/elite their first time.

VIPs can keep their apparently sole reason to subscribe to thremselves, and also not have to deal with all the freebies/premiums bugging them to come unlock quests, premiums/freebies would have access to the bravery bonus, and everyone could get two bravery bonuses per dungeon instead of one. Win/Win.

[xandariant]

I agree that Premium needs unlock for favor as Wax said.
I agree that VIPs need other rewards for their favor as Ungood said.

Did you notice one great thing?
Devs didn't take any vote in the mater. They don't say a thing, just wait for you to fight each other until you will become so tired, that you won't fell like fighting for something anymore. I kinda see this in many topics, that I know are read by them. They answer very rarely.