Devs- How tough are the new Quests supposed to be?

[Khurse]

I did enjoy the series, and the new explorer area (even if it does seem a bit small) but was thinking about something a friend asked me earlier, if the new quests were the same difficulty as Amrath.
And really, the more I think about it, they're not even close.

The Explorer area is much easier than the Amrath stuff (not that Amrath is hard, but stuff seems to save alot more)
but the quests are of much lower difficulty than the Amrath ones.

Before we can give proper feedback, I'd like to know what difficulty you intended these quests to be, because if they are supposed to be harder than the Amrath stuff you're going to get different feedback than if they are supposed to be the same levle,or easier than the Amrath stuff.

[Musouka]

I did enjoy the series, and the new explorer area (even if it does seem a bit small) but was thinking about something a friend asked me earlier, if the new quests were the same difficulty as Amrath.
And really, the more I think about it, they're not even close.

The Explorer area is much easier than the Amrath stuff (not that Amrath is hard, but stuff seems to save alot more)
but the quests are of much lower difficulty than the Amrath ones.

Before we can give proper feedback, I'd like to know what difficulty you intended these quests to be, because if they are supposed to be harder than the Amrath stuff you're going to get different feedback than if they are supposed to be the same levle,or easier than the Amrath stuff.

Shav also has GH on everything. So, duh on the saves.

[Khurse]

Shav also has GH on everything. So, duh on the saves.

Uh yeah.
In these we can cast GH on ourselves,Mobs don't get to.
Which makes them easier.

Which was kinda my point.

The WF don't have very good saves, the Paladins don't seem to have any of a Paladins immunities or save bonuses, the Tempests don't have ranger spells cast (no freedom, no resists that I noticed) nobody bothers casting Dward, the little patrol things (can't remember the name) are vicious- but since they can't take any damage it's pretty easy to toss an AOE down and wipe large numbers of them out.

If the Paladins had Paladin like saves, did extra Evil damage, used smites(but evil smites), if some Mobs present cast Dward, if some had freedom, if those patrol drones were immune (or at least highly resistant)to elemental damage it would make things tougher.
It would be pretty cool (imo anyway) if the WF Paladins did some kind of massive "flesh smite" thing. Something that did large amounts of damage to non WF toons.

But as I said- it's not clear what the Devs are looking for. Is it supposed to be a harder series like Amrath or something easier.

[nivarch]

I ran Power Play and Blown to Bits on elite in my FvS.
I soloed Power Play elite and it has been tough. My gear is clearly not up for it and had to drink many pots. But the fact they can't be neg leveled along with the fact that many mobs have evasion made it hard. I don't remember having such a bad time in the few Amrath elite I soloed.

I grouped for Blown to Bits elite and it has also been a difficult run. We've been glad to be able to complete it. And I'm not talking of the optional Iron Golem who destroyed us (the only thing that seemed to damage him was Blade Barrier ...). I never ran Amrath elite in a group so I cannot compare, but it has clearly been challenging.

I felt that the challenge on elite was exactly what it should be. Doable, but challenging for players that are not overgeared. A caster with a necro / enchantment DC around 40 may make those quests a breeze tho.

I didn't try Normal nor Hard yet. Gonna solo the last one on normal to see what it's like.

[Shade]

They should be as hard as we want them to be.

And on elite.. We want them to be MASSIVELY harder. They are a joke now. They shouldn't all get easily solo'd on day 1. (and yea they are all soloable on elite, by any class, several people have already done so today)

It tooks weeks/months for people to figure out how to solo the amrath stuff on NORMAL. and were knocking this all out on day 1 on elite..

It's far too easy.

The only tough part of the whole lot is the optional fight in Schemes of the Enemy Elite - which is very disporportionately hard due to the fact you have to face off versus 20-40 mobs at once which respawn at an incredible rate. That and its not really an optional, so much as an alternate route that no one will really use since it has no reward.

Really the main issue is saves.. They aren't balanced to challenge average geared players, let alone max ones. And the complete lack of deathblock (only saving grace there is some contructs are innately immune to death effects, tho the quests are primarily living-constructs, which are not)

Amrath has good saves, and infrequent spattering of deathblock laced around to prevent this.

I'll post some more detailed feedback on elite and whats needs buffing tomorow.

[Truga]

It tooks weeks/months for people to figure out how to solo the amrath stuff on NORMAL.

Hello. Remove all your epic and ToD/amrath gear, ship buffs and yugo pots. Then try running the new quests again. You'll thank me later.

[Forzah]

Hello. Remove all your epic and ToD/amrath gear, ship buffs and yugo pots. Then try running the new quests again. You'll thank me later.

Lol, I don't see how that makes any difference; especially on a caster.

[Truga]

Lol, I don't see how that makes any difference; especially on a caster.

Look, I agree that quests should be hard. However, someone dismissing these quests as a breeze to run through solo on elite with a barbarian is obviously over-geared for them. The fact that there's no content for these over-geared characters is a different issue entirely.

[NaturalHazard]

Look, I The fact that there's no content for these over-geared characters is a different issue entirely.

I think shade made a thread about this, I liked some of his ideas in them.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Lol, I don't see how that makes any difference; especially on a caster.

If you're comparing the difficulty of starting out in Shavarath to starting out here, using all the items and whatnot you got from and after Shavarath while doing so makes for an unequal comparison.

[stille_nacht]

without ToD gear, this is still leagues easier than amrath was. decently geared characters (no ToD stuff, minimal greensteel) will still be challenged a lot by what they face in amrath, decently geared characters are not challenged a lot in the new chain

im not sure if it was intentional though, maybe this is supposed to be the "easier endgame before amrath devils" or something....

[Eladiun]

Hello. Remove all your epic and ToD/amrath gear, ship buffs and yugo pots. Then try running the new quests again. You'll thank me later.

I would be a neat trick for him to have ship buffs on Lam already.

That being said I would like to see the difficulty bumped up a bit.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Hello. Remove all your epic and ToD/amrath gear, ship buffs and yugo pots. Then try running the new quests again. You'll thank me later.

But then he can't complain that the missions are way too supernoncompetetiveeasy-peasy!

[SilkofDrasnia]

They should be as hard as we want them to be.

And on elite.. We want them to be MASSIVELY harder. They are a joke now. They shouldn't all get easily solo'd on day 1. (and yea they are all soloable on elite, by any class, several people have already done so today)

It tooks weeks/months for people to figure out how to solo the amrath stuff on NORMAL. and were knocking this all out on day 1 on elite..

It's far too easy.

The only tough part of the whole lot is the optional fight in Schemes of the Enemy Elite - which is very disporportionately hard due to the fact you have to face off versus 20-40 mobs at once which respawn at an incredible rate. That and its not really an optional, so much as an alternate route that no one will really use since it has no reward.

Really the main issue is saves.. They aren't balanced to challenge average geared players, let alone max ones. And the complete lack of deathblock (only saving grace there is some contructs are innately immune to death effects, tho the quests are primarily living-constructs, which are not)

Amrath has good saves, and infrequent spattering of deathblock laced around to prevent this.

I'll post some more detailed feedback on elite and whats needs buffing tomorow.

im curious on what gear you have on when u say its far too easy?, also how many tr on the toon that ran it ?

also whats your definition of average geared players,well geared, max geared players note thats only 3 tiers of "geared" and what happens when this is epified if it isnt already when it comes out

[nivarch]

They should be as hard as we want them to be.

And on elite.. We want them to be MASSIVELY harder. They are a joke now. They shouldn't all get easily solo'd on day 1. (and yea they are all soloable on elite, by any class, several people have already done so today)

It tooks weeks/months for people to figure out how to solo the amrath stuff on NORMAL. and were knocking this all out on day 1 on elite..

It's far too easy.

The only tough part of the whole lot is the optional fight in Schemes of the Enemy Elite - which is very disporportionately hard due to the fact you have to face off versus 20-40 mobs at once which respawn at an incredible rate. That and its not really an optional, so much as an alternate route that no one will really use since it has no reward.

Really the main issue is saves.. They aren't balanced to challenge average geared players, let alone max ones. And the complete lack of deathblock (only saving grace there is some contructs are innately immune to death effects, tho the quests are primarily living-constructs, which are not)

Amrath has good saves, and infrequent spattering of deathblock laced around to prevent this.

I'll post some more detailed feedback on elite and whats needs buffing tomorow.

I don' t really agree with this. These are *not* epic. Elite should be easier than any epic (and it is currently, but mostly because there are very few caster mobs that use crowd control). Someone with no epic gear should be able to run those (maybe not to solo them). And based on what I have seen they will be a challenge to run in a group with no vets with uber epic gear.

Change your gear and run them again (put on some normal gear for a level 20 toon who has been running a few raids), you'll see they won't look that easy on elite : monsters have big HP pool (more than in the easy epics I think), pretty hard to bypass saves (I would say around 45-50 Fort, reflex depends a lot on the type of mob), a lot of them have evasion.
The main difference between this and epic is they don't deal as much damage and there is not as many stun/CC going on inside. But as it is, I think elite is a fair step to epic.

And remember these quests are not epic, elite doesn't offer any of the epic rewards (it only give some favor) so it shouldn't be as hard as epic.

Edit :
If the difficulty was to be increased on elite, these quests should give at least a few epic token fragments.
Also I didn't run these on normal or hard so I am only talking of elite.

[Carpone]

It tooks weeks/months for people to figure out how to solo the amrath stuff on NORMAL. and were knocking this all out on day 1 on elite..

Let's not forget that when Amrath came out there was no epic gear or Cannith crafting in the game, and class enhancements weren't as refined as they are today. Of course new non-epic content is easy when you're running it with an eSoS, eMarilith Chain, 3pc Abisahi, eClaw set, etc (or the caster equivalent) decked out with epic augment slots.

[Angelus_dead]

Of course new non-epic content is easy when you're running it with an eSoS, eMarilith Chain, 3pc Abisahi, eClaw set, etc (or the caster equivalent) decked out with epic augment slots.

The new stuff is also very easy if you run around with a +4 Greatsword of Pure Good.

Really, what it comes down to is this:
Among level 19 dungeons there are the Easy ones and Tough ones. The Tough ones are in Shavarath, and the Easy ones are in Inspiration Island and Cannith Factory (plus one in Shav).

The single biggest factor in if a level 19 dungeon is Easy or Tough is this: Does it contain groups of Barbazu? Honestly, the Barbazu monster is single-handedly what brings danger to these places, thanks to their combined teleport/deaggro action.

[Thrudh]

Let's not forget that when Amrath came out there was no epic gear or Cannith crafting in the game, and class enhancements weren't as refined as they are today. Of course new non-epic content is easy when you're running it with an eSoS, eMarilith Chain, 3pc Abisahi, eClaw set, etc (or the caster equivalent) decked out with epic augment slots.

Exactly. I'm not sure how Shade can't figure this out for himself.

[Ryiah]

It tooks weeks/months for people to figure out how to solo the amrath stuff on NORMAL. and were knocking this all out on day 1 on elite..

It's far too easy.

Try running it with the level of gear of your average pug. A fair number of players I've run into lately in Vale and Reaver's Refuge have had low HP, low fort, or both. The worst example was a level 15 sorcerer with 130HP and no fortification.

I'm not saying you have to gimp yourself before running them. But as others have said, Amrath came before epic gear existed. Prestige lines like Archmage that made landing attacks or spells easier weren't implemented.

[Mjesko]

Try running it with the level of gear of your average pug. A fair number of players I've run into lately in Vale and Reaver's Refuge have had low HP, low fort, or both. The worst example was a level 15 sorcerer with 130HP and no fortification.

I'm not saying you have to gimp yourself before running them. But as others have said, Amrath came before epic gear existed. Prestige lines like Archmage that made landing attacks or spells easier weren't implemented.

Yep, i think the difficulty of the quests is ok for normal geared characters.

Turbine should develop end-game content, where you need level 20 characters with very good gear. This content should reward the players not with better gear to play the same content easier. Instead it should be competive PvE with a ranking system for players and guilds.