Bloodplates dealing alot more damage. I like it.

[NaturalHazard]

Exactly, or have him spam max/empowered DLBs that evasion guys laugh at. it's amazing how some people are completely okay with making things harder as long at it doesn't affect them.

I agree this would definately make things a bit harder right? but im not sure if a lot of these people calling out for more challege would like it.

[grodon9999]

Agreed. There are many tactics that would work here. Take tod as example. It is critical that people don't die, hence only one person getting agro. Bloodplate doesn't have random agro and could be taken by one tank only having everyone else handle their agro to avoid having him dealing damage to everyone. (for example)

TBH, I think it would be better having 1 tank and everyone hitting him safe from his cleave attacks than have everyone auto-attack and afk. At least it would require some care from everyone to avoid getting agro if it's not their role.

Obviously more tactic less surround+hit is good. Having bloodplate deal that kind of damage will lead to new tactics.

Which the experienced players will adapt to in 2-5 runs but completely leaves less experienced people out of the fun.

let's throw some Abishai in the bank as well, with laser-beams strapped to their heads.

[grodon9999]

I agree this would definately make things a bit harder right? but im not sure if a lot of these people calling out for more challege would like it.

because for some of them, the call for "challenge" is more about "I can do this but you can't" than actually having challenge in a game. it's about bragging rights and epeen.

My toons will have no problem with this, the people I run with will have no problem with this. It doesn't make this any less ********.

[Nospheratus]

Which the experienced players will adapt to in 2-5 runs but completely leaves less experienced people out of the fun.

let's throw some Abishai in the bank as well, with laser-beams strapped to their heads.

I disagree. You don't give enough credit to the ability the less experienced players have to understand tactics. Not everyone is a noob and most people take plenty of time to cap to gain enough experience on game to follow basic tactics.

[NaturalHazard]

because for some of them, the call for "challenge" is more about "I can do this but you can't" than actually having challenge in a game. it's about bragging rights and epeen.

My toons will have no problem with this, the people I run with will have no problem with this. It doesn't make this any less ********.

yep, it seems like it.

[NaturalHazard]

let's throw some Abishai in the bank as well, with laser-beams strapped to their heads.

hey I like this idea? we got abishai in the inn, why not in the bank and the steam tunnels?

might let the casters and ranged toons shine?

be nice to have rangers and AA's among your party then. Also monks who can do that stun at range thingy, and casters who can hold, dot, cast spells at them.

Dont worry 1200 hp barberian, your still very useful and we love having you along. Maybe you can pull out your epic noxious fang? (that the throwing knife?) and join in the fun?

[grodon9999]

I disagree. You don't give enough credit to the ability the less experienced players have to understand tactics. Not everyone is a noob and most people take plenty of time to cap to gain enough experience on game to follow basic tactics.

I was trying to be nice by saying "less experienced" rather than "blithering idiots."

[Nospheratus]

I was trying to be nice by saying "less experienced" rather than "blithering idiots."

Which is not the same and that's why I made the distinction...

[Shade]

I was trying to be nice by saying "less experienced" rather than "blithering idiots."

and you feel that those kind of players deserve to beat epic raids without ever smartening up.

Right.

[grodon9999]

and you feel that those kind of players deserve to beat epic raids without ever smartening up.

Right.

Point taken, but these people ARE ALREADY FAILING ECHRONO now.

[NaturalHazard]

and you feel that those kind of players deserve to beat epic raids without ever smartening up.

Right.

Its because people like you pull them through it.

[andbr22]

And I do not like it... Should you need super duper epic gear and cookie cutter build to run epics? Maybe some vets should throw away all their epic gear and try run some quest with "simple greenstel"...

So raid was soled by single FvS on epic. It only shows how much broken FvS is...
I was in quite few raids that failed (around 3 on bloodplate, 1 on razorarm, and around 3 on abishai - and it is not like I run it very often). I quite like how this raid work. Can happen rare situations that "wake up" even best groups -> ice abishai form cast symbol of stunning (or power world stun) after that uses its breath (it was quite a wake up).

There are other ways to make raid for single person unsoloable. Make every boss cast disjunction that last 1 minute ans boss will recast it after 1 minute. You want them to move let them cast super globe of invurability that prevents all spells. antimagic spikes. Summoning of some trash monsters that conjure "KILL" if you not kill them fast enought.
Will this be soloable probably yes, but is this real achivment if guy drink 2 stacks of potions to achive it (you remember Shroud is soloable but guy drank so much potions that he done this on lamannia - now probably he would use less potions).

[dingal]

it's amazing how some people are completely okay with making things harder as long at it doesn't affect them.

This, my friend is very, VERY well said.

[Nick_RC]

Hmmm I can see people might be overreacting a tad here.

There was only 5 of us in the bloodplate fight as we were just trialling a perspective guildie. It wasnt a full grp and we were pretty much messing around - as we basically always do in chrono. We didnt see such big numbers until he got low on armor (im pretty sure he was close to being naked when I got nailed). So rangers and rogues dont get ur panties in a bunch - its kinda like when lailat goes to war from what I saw. 3 of us went down actually - ayspam on his fvs, darkstar on his sorc and me on my fvs. Id go out on a limb and say all three of us 'shouldnt' have died...we were just used to the regular atmosphere in there. It sure as heck woke us up and we were more careful from there on. Which is GOOD.

Like i said i am all for being challenged but i like joining random pugs...what i dont like is taking pots to power through something..Dont get me wrong in a guild run or a channel run im sure even with the changes that echrono will still be a smooth run..but in a pug? hmm.. we shall see.

Yo Stone,
Its probably not going to be nearly as bad as some of the others have made it out to sound. Think they overreacted is all. Like I said in the OP it seemed like he did more damage the less health he had. When we were getting clobbered like that he was under 20%. It wont make much of a difference most likely, healers will just have to conserve a bit more for the last beat down, casters have their cc in place so porting devils arnt causing pandemonium etc. It was just a nice change - seems like the more armor he lost, the more ****ed off he got and he started swinging for the fences.

N

My thoughts on casual vs powergamers and epic content:

Easy for us, people wipe in that raid every day. Thank you Turbine for excluding a good chunk of your players!

Grodon,

Honestly I just dont get where you are coming from in your arguments. You complain when certain things are changed to make fights more interesting 'ruling out 90% of ur players' or something. And yet simultaneously you complain about epics being boring. Realistically they are just ramped up versions of the base quest - base quests are fun - its the grinding random loot mechanic that gets boring. I understand that you like to champion the underdog - most ranger players do - its like its hard wired into their system from first being rolled . But seriously, I dont understand the need to coddle 'casual' players in what should be tough quests. And further to that - I dont think many of them appreciate the coddling. There was a chap earlier on who had an awesome attitude - and he was a casual player - he liked the fact there were 'epics' that he might or might not complete. Casual players arnt dumb they just play less.

Im not a psychologist or anything but just by playing this game I can tell you one thing:
**** near every person anywhere thinks they are 'better than average' when it comes to things they enjoy doing - not work or whether you can swim well, but things you choose/like to do. Casual players, powergamers, real world people.
- If you took a survey of people who thought they were 'better than average' in the sack you'd get well over 50% of people. Id guess 70-80%.
- Similarly thats why you get people hit lfm's that clearly state 'zerg, must knw way, BYOHeals' etc who don't fit any of the requirements - they can read...but secretly they consiously/unconsciously think 'hell im better than average - any group would be happy to have me along'. And they might just really suck.
- Similarly thats why you get newly minted level 20 characters hitting epic lfms - and they might or might not get pwnd. They might get carried along by a strong group or they might just get obliterated with a group of likeminded people.

The funny thing is - either way it will work out. If they cruise through, many will think about how much they actually contributed, whether or not they could hit things, whether their spells worked etc. The good ones will go around and figure out how to make themselves more effective. The bad ones will learn eventually when they cant pike their way through a quest. Why will they adapt? Because no one likes to suck at a thing they have chosen to do. They want to go happily along in their 'better than average' way. They dont have to have a cookie cutter build to contribute. Honestly I moved away from my own cookie cutter build to something that gives me more enjoyment - Battledivine! Am I optimised - nope! Do I contribute - you better believe it. (And even tho I know im not optimised I consciously/unconsciouly think I kick arse - an extra hundred hit points would dfeinately be nice)

What im trying to get at with this is that every person likes to be challenged-its a game. Games are meant to be fun and have an element of challenge to them. By coddling people in something they choose to do - you remove challenge. If they arn't up to that level of challange - well so be it - they improve their own game and have something to work towards. DDO is a grind game. End game players grind tomes and epic loots, casual players with an eye at endgame grind gear to get them into the realm of being epic ready. Casual players without an eye to endgame do their own flower sniffing thing and more power to them.

I just dont get why people have to champion the casual gamer. They can champion themselves! We have casual setting, oodles of content from levels 1-20, a crafting system that helps them create nice loot, excellent named items that can be aquired with relative ease. What more do you want for the casual player. Why is it so terrible that the very end of the end game gets bumped up some? It makes no sense to me.

Im sure you are well aware its not an attack on you personally I just have no idea why people champion the casual player - when near-on everything turbine does caters to them. If you think im wrong look at turbines actions since f2p. Power gamers have barely been thrown a bone. They dont need championing - we do. Maybe you can share some insight as I just don't get it.

N

Edit: Ignore spelling and grammar havnt had enough coffee yet.

[twix]

Hmmm I can see people might be overreacting a tad here.

There was only 5 of us in the bloodplate fight as we were just trialling a perspective guildie. It wasnt a full grp and we were pretty much messing around - as we basically always do in chrono. We didnt see such big numbers until he got low on armor (im pretty sure he was close to being naked when I got nailed). So rangers and rogues dont get ur panties in a bunch - its kinda like when lailat goes to war from what I saw. 3 of us went down actually - ayspam on his fvs, darkstar on his sorc and me on my fvs. Id go out on a limb and say all three of us 'shouldnt' have died...we were just used to the regular atmosphere in there. It sure as heck woke us up and we were more careful from there on. Which is GOOD.



Yo Stone,
Its probably not going to be nearly as bad as some of the others have made it out to sound. Think they overreacted is all. Like I said in the OP it seemed like he did more damage the less health he had. When we were getting clobbered like that he was under 20%. It wont make much of a difference most likely, healers will just have to conserve a bit more for the last beat down, casters have their cc in place so porting devils arnt causing pandemonium etc. It was just a nice change - seems like the more armor he lost, the more ****ed off he got and he started swinging for the fences.

N

My thoughts on casual vs powergamers and epic content:



Grodon,

Honestly I just dont get where you are coming from in your arguments. You complain when certain things are changed to make fights more interesting 'ruling out 90% of ur players' or something. And yet simultaneously you complain about epics being boring. Realistically they are just ramped up versions of the base quest - base quests are fun - its the grinding random loot mechanic that gets boring. I understand that you like to champion the underdog - most ranger players do - its like its hard wired into their system from first being rolled . But seriously, I dont understand the need to coddle 'casual' players in what should be tough quests. And further to that - I dont think many of them appreciate the coddling. There was a chap earlier on who had an awesome attitude - and he was a casual player - he liked the fact there were 'epics' that he might or might not complete. Casual players arnt dumb they just play less.

Im not a psychologist or anything but just by playing this game I can tell you one thing:
**** near every person anywhere thinks they are 'better than average' when it comes to things they enjoy doing - not work or whether you can swim well, but things you choose/like to do. Casual players, powergamers, real world people.
- If you took a survey of people who thought they were 'better than average' in the sack you'd get well over 50% of people. Id guess 70-80%.
- Similarly thats why you get people hit lfm's that clearly state 'zerg, must knw way, BYOHeals' etc who don't fit any of the requirements - they can read...but secretly they consiously/unconsciously think 'hell im better than average - any group would be happy to have me along'. And they might just really suck.
- Similarly thats why you get newly minted level 20 characters hitting epic lfms - and they might or might not get pwnd. They might get carried along by a strong group or they might just get obliterated with a group of likeminded people.

The funny thing is - either way it will work out. If they cruise through, many will think about how much they actually contributed, whether or not they could hit things, whether their spells worked etc. The good ones will go around and figure out how to make themselves more effective. The bad ones will learn eventually when they cant pike their way through a quest. Why will they adapt? Because no one likes to suck at a thing they have chosen to do. They want to go happily along in their 'better than average' way. They dont have to have a cookie cutter build to contribute. Honestly I moved away from my own cookie cutter build to something that gives me more enjoyment - Battledivine! Am I optimised - nope! Do I contribute - you better believe it. (And even tho I know im not optimised I consciously/unconsciouly think I kick arse - an extra hundred hit points would dfeinately be nice)

What im trying to get at with this is that every person likes to be challenged-its a game. Games are meant to be fun and have an element of challenge to them. By coddling people in something they choose to do - you remove challenge. If they arn't up to that level of challange - well so be it - they improve their own game and have something to work towards. DDO is a grind game. End game players grind tomes and epic loots, casual players with an eye at endgame grind gear to get them into the realm of being epic ready. Casual players without an eye to endgame do their own flower sniffing thing and more power to them.

I just dont get why people have to champion the casual gamer. They can champion themselves! We have casual setting, oodles of content from levels 1-20, a crafting system that helps them create nice loot, excellent named items that can be aquired with relative ease. What more do you want for the casual player. Why is it so terrible that the very end of the end game gets bumped up some? It makes no sense to me.

Im sure you are well aware its not an attack on you personally I just have no idea why people champion the casual player - when near-on everything turbine does caters to them. If you think im wrong look at turbines actions since f2p. Power gamers have barely been thrown a bone. They dont need championing - we do. Myabe you can share soem insight as I just dont get it.

N

I worry about the more casual gamer because they are the majority and whether us powergamers are vip + purchase extras everymonth the amount of revenue the more casual players bring is a lot more..as evident by all the changes to the game to cater to the casual player...

Like i said im all for epic being for the best geared players and such but if it means that ill be waiting around for guild/channel groups instead of joining a pug then its not good for the game....Sure we can have static nights and such but do we really want to go back to no one doing epics except for the powergamers?

As much as the game has changed towards the casual player whether we like it or not the changes that have been made to this game within the last couple years have kept this game alive as well as given it new life..if we alienate the majority population from the only end game ddo knows ..how many do you think will stick around for months and months to be good enough to contribute to end game? my guess is very few..

There needs to be a way to give the casual player an end game with epic item crafting while still leaving a more challenging end game for the powergamer.... While im sure your right and when everything goes live it wont be as bad as some say ..what if it is though?

You yourself said that you got pwoned in two hits...I would deffintly consider you above average in this game and if you admit you got pwoned whether it be at the last 20 % or not what do you think will happen to the average player? so in pugs we should expect to wipe at 20 % at bloodplate?

Dont get me wrong we need a challenge more fitting for the real vets of this game but not at the expense of the majority population..they are who made it possible for this game to still be alive and well...not us..as much as it pains me to say it..I know you remember the days before ftp where if you didnt have a group of friends/guildies you were either going to wait forever to fill a group or just go solo..i just dont want this to happen again..

While we gravitated to this game because it was challenging evident by all the easy button changes most DIDNT like it because of the same reason....when epics were challenging what happened? they got changed because only the powergamers did epic questing/raiding..

In my opinion its not the dps of the enemy ai or the hp that is the problem..You want to make epics more challenging? Throw in more mobs that heal ,restore,buffs such as mass deathward,mass protection. **** throw in some mobs who will continuously resurrect their fallen "friends"..Throw in some mobs who assasinate through deathward if you fail your save...Add more fortification..Add abilitys for the enemy to take away our fortification for a time..

[xTethx]

I think everyone in this thread is overreacting just a tad bit. Chances are Nick wasnt paying attention as usual , and didnt see that bloodplate was actually in "shavarath war mode". He alrdy hits for well over 100 pts of dmg on Live in this mode. I guarantee that when he was down on hp he went into this war mode and shredded through this said group. I have no doubt that his damage output was increased. But people are getting their panties in a wad over this.

[grodon9999]

Stuff . . .

I need to see what the changes are with my own eyes to see if I'm over-reacting or not. If you guys were short-manning it and screwing around you should have stated this in your original post and we'd have had 5 fewer pages of nonsense generated in the last 24 hours. If it's 200/swing and a craptasticly slow swing rate we'll still be able to scroll an aggro-tank through this on a bard. That's SO much more challenging . . .

My biggest (of many) issues with "epic" is it's one size fits all and Turbine for a whole year churned out this garbage and tried to pass it off as end-game. With level 1-19 content we have N/H/E settings where people from various skill/gear/experience levels can play according to what they are capable of completing. it gives your incremental stuff to work towards.

If you're a 20 and you can't run whatever "epic" is for this month's flavor, what else is there to do?

I've no issue with the difficulties ramping up on Elite. Tower is the best raid in the game for this reason. For new 20s even normal is scary and Elite maintains it's challenge even for vets with 100s of completions. We need more raids like that where it's accessible to nearly all but can provide you with whatever challenge you are capable of handling. I'm hoping the new raids do the same.

[grodon9999]

In my opinion its not the dps of the enemy ai or the hp that is the problem..You want to make epics more challenging? Throw in more mobs that heal ,restore,buffs such as mass deathward,mass protection. **** throw in some mobs who will continuously resurrect their fallen "friends"..Throw in some mobs who assasinate through deathward if you fail your save...Add more fortification..Add abilitys for the enemy to take away our fortification for a time..

That's pretty much how I feel as well, more HP/damage a swing is a cop-out, a cheap way of making things more "challenging."

[Nick_RC]

I worry about the more casual gamer because they are the majority and whether us powergamers are vip + purchase extras everymonth the amount of revenue the more casual players bring is a lot more..as evident by all the changes to the game to cater to the casual player...

Agree

Like i said im all for epic being for the best geared players and such but if it means that ill be waiting around for guild/channel groups instead of joining a pug then its not good for the game....Sure we can have static nights and such but do we really want to go back to no one doing epics except for the powergamers?

I think it will fall on the powergamers to teach the newer players what to do once again. Rather than jsut it being a walk in the park new or vet alike. Its funny I have played on quite a few servers and each has its own way of running raids. Khyber for example tends to have slower but more pug friendly strategies. (its a pug friendly server for the most part). Argo was more cutthroat and definately relied on x class doing x thing - like a caster that can or cannot solo base 3 etc. Each server has its top players that go through and figure out how to beat something and the strategies trickle down. Maybe we jsut need to find strategies that will be 'safer' if a pug group and more advancerd strategies for guild/channel runs. Chrono will be no problem - just a slight change in tactics - we will learn and adapt and so will the pugs we lead.

As much as the game has changed towards the casual player whether we like it or not the changes that have been made to this game within the last couple years have kept this game alive as well as given it new life..if we alienate the majority population from the only end game ddo knows ..how many do you think will stick around for months and months to be good enough to contribute to end game? my guess is very few..

I agree with you partially. Have you noticed all the loot that has come out of the new chains, the crafting system etc. Someone with tier 2 greensteel and some of the nicer named items, and crafted holy of x bane (which you can get at a reasonably low level and can be purchased unbound) will be able to contribute im guessing 70% of what a fully decked out vet can. 70% is enough to get any of the raids in the game done easily. As it is right now it doesnt take months to get where you need to be for epics.

There needs to be a way to give the casual player an end game with epic item crafting while still leaving a more challenging end game for the powergamer.... While im sure your right and when everything goes live it wont be as bad as some say ..what if it is though?

If it is they will scale it back. Turbine has shown they think with their wallet and rightly so - I think they are listening to us and making things a bit harder - if it is too hard then they will scale it back im sure of it. There is somewhat of an epic tier segment already. The more casual crowd do P and D and K epics and get some of their gear there. The more hardcore do desert for the best stuff. It wasnt random that they upgraded the P and D epics this update - they did it because thats where the more casual players run - I can almost guarantee it.

You yourself said that you got pwoned in two hits...I would deffintly consider you above average in this game and if you admit you got pwoned whether it be at the last 20 % or not what do you think will happen to the average player? so in pugs we should expect to wipe at 20 % at bloodplate?

Well im a little squishy on my fvs at the moment, we didnt have any crowd control, there was 5 of us - and we were taking it too lightly. I think after a couple of run throughs people will learn where to stand so not to get pummeled. I think using a more tactical approach is not a bad thing. Personally i dont see it anywhere near wipe material... but we will see I guess.

Dont get me wrong we need a challenge more fitting for the real vets of this game but not at the expense of the majority population..they are who made it possible for this game to still be alive and well...not us..as much as it pains me to say it..I know you remember the days before ftp where if you didnt have a group of friends/guildies you were either going to wait forever to fill a group or just go solo..i just dont want this to happen again..

Yeah the dark days of vast and mysterious I definately dont want to go back to there. I dunno how they plan on donig it to be honest.

While we gravitated to this game because it was challenging evident by all the easy button changes most DIDNT like it because of the same reason....when epics were challenging what happened? they got changed because only the powergamers did epic questing/raiding..

In my opinion its not the dps of the enemy ai or the hp that is the problem..You want to make epics more challenging? Throw in more mobs that heal ,restore,buffs such as mass deathward,mass protection. **** throw in some mobs who will continuously resurrect their fallen "friends"..Throw in some mobs who assasinate through deathward if you fail your save...Add more fortification..Add abilitys for the enemy to take away our fortification for a time..

In red, I know its a pain to quote but im on my phone mate.

N

[moops]

Nick--
perhaps you can edit your OP so that people know that there were only 5 of you goofing around--not a full raid group trying every strategy--might keep people from overreacting so much--as many won't bother to read thru the thread