Philosophically speaking . . .

[theboatman]

Tactics either don't work or aren't needed in the current epics and in non-epics most stuff dies fast enough without it. You can't trip ANYTHING in epics, i don't think the 80 STR guys can pull that off. I had Improved Trip leveling up and it was AWESOME, epic it just don't work.


Stunning blow . . . my fighter had a 50 DC with a weighted hammer equipped. now it doesn't succeed enough to even bother and I'm pretty sure even if the stun landed 95% of the time it wouldn't be worth it. Having a weighted hammer in your off-hand compared to a second Lightning II Khopesh is probably a DPS loss since we're not getting auto-crits anymore. I know some people still like this and I'm sure the multi-TR'd ubber-toons who can get a 45+ DC without a weighted weapon are still fine, but if you're not one of them I just don't find it useful anymore at all.

That's kind of the point of my post. In theory, a tactics fighter is a great addition to a group. In practice, most take 5 toughness feats instead, because of the lack of tactical options in epics.

Not that having a moderate amount of hp a good tank makes; without the heal amp to support it (or AC, but not going into that here) you effectively make a sp sponge. Personally I would prefer to make my non-tank fighter with only one toughness and loads of tactical options, so that groups really believe me when I say I'm not built to tank. (Plus I actually have an AC tank, and really, you have to give up so much to get there.)

The issue boils down to epics not supporting much of the rest of the game that is fun/etc. I feel your pain with the lack of tripping in epics. I've tried just about everything to get my horc acrobat to imp trip anything in an epic. I think I have tripped one mob once in an amrath quest. On Casual...

But in all seriousness, maybe the revamp of the Sential epics and the addition of 15trip to the armors will allow it to work in an epic once in a while.

If the dev's see that non casting tactics can work in an epic under the right situation, we may be presented with more options to use them. But right now, a trip removes something from the equation; a hold works just as well. The only thing that stuns do is a dps bonus for helpless to the rest of the party, which is about the only time that a personal dps loss from changing an offhand might be outweighed by the gain in group dps.

[grodon9999]

That's kind of the point of my post. In theory, a tactics fighter is a great addition to a group. In practice, most take 5 toughness feats instead, because of the lack of tactical options in epics.

Not that having a moderate amount of hp a good tank makes; without the heal amp to support it (or AC, but not going into that here) you effectively make a sp sponge. Personally I would prefer to make my non-tank fighter with only one toughness and loads of tactical options, so that groups really believe me when I say I'm not built to tank. (Plus I actually have an AC tank, and really, you have to give up so much to get there.)

The issue boils down to epics not supporting much of the rest of the game that is fun/etc. I feel your pain with the lack of tripping in epics. I've tried just about everything to get my horc acrobat to imp trip anything in an epic. I think I have tripped one mob once in an amrath quest. On Casual...

But in all seriousness, maybe the revamp of the Sential epics and the addition of 15trip to the armors will allow it to work in an epic once in a while.

You're dead on, tactics should work better thoughout the whole game.

[dingal]

. . . should you build a fighter to do anything other than be a tank? By “tank” I mean “guy who holds agro and stands in a devil’s crotch” and not necessarily a “Stalwart Defender S&B” guy. Should you build a fighter designed to do great DPS while hitting bosses in the back?

Here’s my line of thinking . . . there are a lot of great splash options for fighters that can yield really excellent DPS, more than a pure 20 Kensai in the “spreadsheets” so take them with a situational grain of salt. But many of them involved deep rogue-splashes or the Helf rogue dilly. A Horc Fighter 12/Rogue 7/Whatever 1 gets amazing damage, the classic “Monster” build (Fighter 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2) as a Half-Elf with the rogue dilly goes from “viable” up to “optimal” as that sneak-attack makes up the ground lost from the U5 tempest nerfs. The biggest difference between one of these hybrid builds and a rogue was they’d be tougher with more HP, could stun their own targets, and when they got agro their damage output was still pretty good.

See, the thing is that game has changed since U9. Stunning and hitting held mobs used to be the name of the game in epics. A 12/7/1 could get a great stunning-blow DC that could stun its own targets and beat them down with a bunch of sneak attack and heavy picks. With the raising of the saves and the usefulness of insta-kills this just isn’t as cool anymore, the 40ish stunning-blow DC is kinda meh. The change to the helpless state makes kensai III’s stock go up in value since there are no more auto-crits. Sneak attack doesn’t get the 50% damage boost that all other types get, investing it it’s not as nice as it used to be.

Casters handle most of the trash these days, melees are there to kill orange/red/purple names. If you're a fighter in a 6 man epic party hopefully you're holding aggro.

Here the thing with raids though . . . generally speaking if you have 8 melees in a raid 7 of them are hitting something in the back. I’ve been in ToDs/VoDs/ eChronos where 6 people were capable of tanking the bosses, 5 were hitting things in the back. The builds with deep rogue splashes should put out more damage under those circumstances.

Regarding hitting things in the back . . . nothing beat pure rogues and their absurd sneak-attack damage. If you want to build something to do that pure (or mostly) rogue is the way to go.

I guess it’s a good first-life option while you’re gearing up, low-gear guys will usually not be tanking that often. But other than that, is there any reason to build a fighter that isn’t build to be a tank?

I wouldn't build any melee toon again without the ability to fill in as hate tank at a minimum. It's one of the reasons I hate my rogue now.

[SensaiRyu]

. . . should you build a fighter to do anything other than be a tank? By “tank” I mean “guy who holds agro and stands in a devil’s crotch” and not necessarily a “Stalwart Defender S&B” guy. Should you build a fighter designed to do great DPS while hitting bosses in the back?
[...]
Here the thing with raids though . . . generally speaking if you have 8 melees in a raid 7 of them are hitting something in the back. I’ve been in ToDs/VoDs/ eChronos where 6 people were capable of tanking the bosses, 5 were hitting things in the back. The builds with deep rogue splashes should put out more damage under those circumstances.
[...]
I guess it’s a good first-life option while you’re gearing up, low-gear guys will usually not be tanking that often. But other than that, is there any reason to build a fighter that isn’t build to be a tank?

So, are you suggesting that the fighter that is good at hitting things in the back is a viable and worthy option for fighter builds and has a place in raids/parties? I'd agree.

I have 2 toons that are pure fighters. Each has it's purpose in a raid/party.

Intimitank build - grooming for ToD tanking. Not superb dps, but enuf to keep aggro after the 100% intimidate. With the SD and threat gen gear I only need to do enuf dps to keep aggro while the dps builds (the other 5 in the raid) hit the boss in the back and take no dmg. Fair with mobs, great with a boss. This toon is best when he's the designated tank.

Kensai build - simply going for DPS with greatswords. I get more tactics with this toon than my intimitank: great jump for reaching the casters and wiping them out fast, good with killing mobs, satisfying dps. This fighter build shouldn't be able to take aggro from the tank but should be able to do more dps than an intimitank (and less dps than the designated hate tank). Great with mobs, good with the boss.

It's the job of the tank to have the intim/hate gen/dps to keep aggro from passing to the other dpsers. It's the job of the other fighters maximize dps without taking aggro from the tank. The higher hate gen the tank has, the more overall dps the group can do. Or just surround the boss and whack away like a group of barbs

I've noticed that leaders choose my intimitank over the hate tank builds in VoD and Xyzzy runs all the time.

[Indoran]

It certainly isn't feeling like the "best combat of any MMO" right now.

Just imagine the others lol :P

Having played a couple other MMORPGs I prefer this one. But that's me... In any case... not all raids are as boring imo, in any case I prefer the soft frustration of a repetitive success than the huge frustration of long and slow repetitive failure (what I heard from ppl who played FFXI)

back to the op... make a flexible toon that can do w/e roles you want him to do... not all is tanking / dps but I think a toon should in any case be able to do a couple of jobs, like dps / traps or buffing and dpsing, etc, etc...

DnD is not about unidimensional toons, lets not turn ddo into that...

[grodon9999]

Things are changing now as well as the demands of a "tank" has gone up. lets see how the changes in U11 play out.

[Emili]

Tactics:

Stunning/Tripping/Sundering/etc,

There is not a single quest in the game where melee tactics are actually in any need ... and even when they are used they could have been substituted by magical means which produce much more efficiency and far more effect.

The issue boils down to epics not supporting much of the rest of the game that is fun/etc. I feel your pain with the lack of tripping in epics. I've tried just about everything to get my horc acrobat to imp trip anything in an epic. I think I have tripped one mob once in an amrath quest. On Casual...

I do not believe in more than one toughness feat... The fighter in my sig is a tactical... what's worse is she is a human tactical. DC's cross 55+ or more depending on the running str at the time ... Armath elite she can land improved trips - even on some oranged, she lands stuns in epics if needed but trips you never will... quite funny though is these bells and whistles are really not needed. There are far better means.

The scope of what you give up to do so is overshaddowed by what is provided by the rest of the party ... typically you land the tactic - and the mob is immediately FoD'd, blasted etc... Sometimes landing a tactic is even counter productive.

The only time tactics are employable and usefull to the end result is - when you are alone.

Anyway, staring at a fighter life on one of my toons and I'm probably going to lean towards at least trying to hit some of the tactics numbers ... and am probably not going to be tank-worthy. Sure I could tank weaker stuff, but not the top.

My honest opinion is do not bother with Tring it unless you plan to TR it as a FvS.

Except casters can tank just as well as melee other then the very odd situation where a super tank is useful so for 98% of melee in game what do you do with them. Really the analysis should be what do melee do well anymore from an optimum standpoint and the answer to that is not a whole lot. The playerbase has been so used to a melee oriented game for so long that it will take them quite sometime to adapt, but with each new non melee class (artificer and then psion, druids, etc.) that comes out and with time elapsing the playerbase will change its ways. I kind of think melee are fun so I am hoping the devs keep them going in the game, but we will see.

Regarding your gear set I can tell you already that what I predicted is coming to pass the epic claw and and tharnes set are going to become subotimal end game gear because they do not do enough dps per item piece as some of the other pieces in its slot. I doubt any of my characters will be wearing epic claw sets by the end of next mod or so.

... and Matt is correct. A totally built up Caster (be it arcane or divine) can do everything needed for the scope you present fighters within. This is why I suggest FvS... you get DPS, Survivability and utility along with well enough CC capability. You also can build it to position to tank anything in the game.

Fighter currently is a weighted class, dead weight more or less, again, but this has been in the past before too. However, the scope of the game the Dev's seem to trend towards the newer classes/races especially those which bring revenue...

So in scope the class is what Imo would call ... a trainer in DDO eyes, a flavour build of introduction and as the newer players level up and learn the game they will eventually move on to the better toys.

[grodon9999]

... and Matt is correct. A totally built up Caster (be it arcane or divine) can do everything needed for the scope you present fighters within. This is why I suggest FvS... you get DPS, Survivability and utility along with well enough CC capability. You also can build it to position to tank anything in the game.

Fighter currently is a weighted class, dead weight more or less, again, but this has been in the past before too. However, the scope of the game the Dev's seem to trend towards the newer classes/races especially those which bring revenue...

So in scope the class is what Imo would call ... a trainer in DDO eyes, a flavour build of introduction and as the newer players level up and learn the game they will eventually move on to the better toys.

Will this still be true post U11? With the updated damage and HP of raid bosses in difficult content do you really see casters tanking stuff? Elite Horoth?

With 100% more HP you're gonna need sustained DPS. We did elite ToD last night, killed sulu in 7 haste boosts. A horc Kensai III could have 12-14 haste boost and should be able to maintain full DPS for the beatdown of Elite Sulu. Will a caster be able to keep up decent DPS for a fight that long without potting their way through it? I'm asking as I really don't know.

A rogue or deep rogue-splash is gonna keep screwed with this, barbs stock with rise because they aren't reliant on boosts and their viscous damage works regardless of fort. Full Kensai are looking hotter over Fighter 12/x/x because of the additional boosts allow them to sustain their DPS for longer.

What's a tank gonna need to do? Will AC tanks maintain their viability in Elite or get some viability in Epic? Will meat-bag tanking this new Elite Horoth even be possible without a ton of resources? it becomes more of a marathon and not a sprint.

I'd have to say the game is changing and things are up in the air. Enough stuff has changed in the 3 days since the OP to get me rethinking everything.

[Emili]

Will this still be true post U11? With the updated damage and HP of raid bosses in difficult content do you really see casters tanking stuff? Elite Horoth?

With 100% more HP you're gonna need sustained DPS. We did elite ToD last night, killed sulu in 7 haste boosts. A horc Kensai III could have 12-14 haste boost and should be able to maintain full DPS for the beatdown of Elite Sulu. Will a caster be able to keep up decent DPS for a fight that long without potting their way through it? I'm asking as I really don't know.

A rogue or deep rogue-splash is gonna keep screwed with this, barbs stock with rise because they aren't reliant on boosts and their viscous damage works regardless of fort. Full Kensai are looking hotter over Fighter 12/x/x because of the additional boosts allow them to sustain their DPS for longer.

What's a tank gonna need to do? Will AC tanks maintain their viability in Elite or get some viability in Epic? Will meat-bag tanking this new Elite Horoth even be possible without a ton of resources? it becomes more of a marathon and not a sprint.

I'd have to say the game is changing and things are up in the air. Enough stuff has changed in the 3 days since the OP to get me rethinking everything.

Tanking Elite Horoth yes, so let us think about this. We have double the HP and 100% fort to deal with. We need to reduce the fort even for the meleeing DPS toons to be viable... a wide crit range kensie (i.e. criticals comprise 53% a khopesh (16-20 x3(-1)) wielding Kensie III total basic damage on average over the course of 20 swings) is not going to be effective unless we manage to increase their number of criticals from zero, likewise for the Death Frenzied...

These mob are not only gaining HP and wackage but also fortification and in some ways AC is detrimental (Condemnation requires being hit - and being hit plenty - to reduce boss mob fort, we want the fort reduced by 50%). A FvS must name a champion and stand in aura range or ... take the tanking on themself.

With adequate HP, Saves, DR, +30% damage(An ESoS toting FvS geared up some will have heavier sustained DPS than an above average barb or kensie to begin with), a DoT and top of it can react on thier own behalf with healing outside those healing it in a pinched situation... your best bet for a tank is indeed a well built FvS and not some traditional non blue bar melee. Keep up a DoT or two and swing away with an eSoS or +5 holy silver of geob... have some sp regen, and scope enough hp just to keep out of dangerzone. Having a second such toon in group and you may exchange the tanking duties if need be.

[grodon9999]

Tanking Horoth yes... These mob are not only gaining HP and whackage but also fortification and in some ways AC is detrimental (Condemnation requires being hit - and being hit plenty - to reduce boss mob fort). A FvS must name a champion and stand in aura range or ... take the tanking on themself.

With adequate HP, Saves, DR, +30% damage(An ESoS toting FvS geared up some will have heavier sustained DPS than an above average barb or kensie), a DoT and top of it can react on thier own behalf outside those healing it... your best bet for a tank is indeed a FvS not some traditional non blue bar melee.

I'm calling BS on this until I see it. I've seen well equipped LoB FvS try to hold aggro against "real" melees using DoTs and DPS and it doesn't work.

[Emili]

I'm calling BS on this until I see it. I've seen well equipped LoB FvS try to hold aggro against "real" melees using DoTs and DPS and it doesn't work.

I've seen it a few times now... and comes down entirely to build and people knowing what they're doing not only on the front but on the back, is silly when people playing the dps role also walk up with thier hate gear on. I think the FvS you met far under-geared or know-how? You pick the toon to tank by what you currently have in group not exactly by class - but by observance of where/what their build is at... least I do.

First you'd be surprised what % of all overall damage comes from criticals... they're important. Either the FvS picks a champion or the FvS gears to hilt does not matter... as I stated over the course of 20 swings per melee a good 30-50% of damage is due from criticals and that is the scope we're speaking of ... reducing the prolonged fight is what we're after not withstanding it.

Oh, and speaking of Horoth... course been a while since I tanked him myself in quite a while - a few weeks, but I'd like some people to go in and scrap the combat log then add up the damage you've taken - by catagories, then tell us all where the damage came from.