Black Dragon Bolt

[IamSooty]

Hehe, good to know. Now I won't really have to worry about respeccing my sorc to take advantage of it!

[Rodasch]

Hehe, good to know. Now I won't really have to worry about respeccing my sorc to take advantage of it!

Yeah, and the dps gap pretty much vanishes when you use the time you'd be casting BDB to cast other cold or electricity spells or even SLA's.

Otiluke's, Frost Lance, Chain Lightning, etc lose more dps than BDB gains you in the bigger picture.

[Morosy]

And just to be clear...if BD Bolt has 4 damage increments rather than 3, the calcs all change quite a bit, putting it in a much stronger position than Polar Ray even on the boss devil for their respective savants, but it's ok given the bigger picture. I still approve.

Just 3, at what I'm assuming to be :00, :02, and :04 (roughly) since there is an instant tick (according to Clean) and the other ones should come 2 seconds after for each.

[Malky]

It's still no Niacs or Eladars, and doesn't justify taking Earth Savant at endgame. Looks like a very worthwhile spell to use on a Water Savant at certain times, however.

Your water savant would gladly have the boss cursed for +15% acid damage now as well, ain't it ?

[Dark-Star]

Just 3, at what I'm assuming to be :00, :02, and :04 (roughly) since there is an instant tick (according to Clean) and the other ones should come 2 seconds after for each.

Tested it some more.

It tics oddly: Once immediately, once 4 seconds in, once at 6 seconds in. So His calcs should be right.

[Solmage]

Velah isn't vulnerable to cold on Epic.

This spell is definitely slightly superior to Polar Ray, which is Cold's second best spell for single-target damage output.

It's still no Niacs or Eladars, and doesn't justify taking Earth Savant at endgame. Looks like a very worthwhile spell to use on a Water Savant at certain times, however.

I think it's a bit more balanced now, and that the earth savant with it's earth grab thing + this + cold as secondary is now a viable alternative, close enough at least to not get laughed out of a group and be able to perform an useful, beneficial role to the group, don't you think? (Just because other melee classes don't have a rogue's DPS output, doesn't mean they're useless/not wanted in a raid besides the main tank after all..)

[Arctigis]

Black Dragon Bolt is comparable to Polar Ray on a foe with some Cold Resist and Acid Resist (like Raid-boss Devils) in terms of the Damage Per Second a Sorcerer can bust out.

Assumptions:

• The Sorcerer has 20 levels of Sorcerer.
• Prime Element is the Savant's Element.
• Prime Element has full enhancement line for spell-boosting damage.
• Secondary Elements have the full base damage and 1 rank of Spell Critical Chance, namely because 3 elemental damage types are being used.
• Greater Arcane Lore is assumed.
• Maximize, Empower, and the Sorcerer Capstone are assumed.
• Target foe is a devil with 50 cold/acid resistance.
• A spell clickable damage for each element is assumed (Freeze, Spark, and Erosion).
• No other bonuses to Base Caster Level or Max Caster Level are used.
• Targets will always save, but do not have evasion.
• Vulnerability to elements is not assumed.

20 Sorc Water Savant																																	
			Name			Caster Level	Damage Dice	Average Damage	Muliplier	Multiplied Damage	Ticks	Max Damage	Saves	Saved Damage	Energy Resist	Devil Damage	Devil Damage (2nd)	Devil Damage (3rd)	DPS (max stack)	
			Polar Ray		26		26d6(w)		130		10.2		1,326.0			1	1,326.0		1	1,326.0		35		1,291.0								322.8		
			B Drag Bolt		20		20d3		40		8.47		338.8			4	1,355.2		4	1,355.2		50		1,155.2								192.5		
			Eladar's Surge		20		2d6+20		27		8.47		228.7			7	1,600.8		7	1,600.8		0		1,600.8		3,201.7			4,802.5			343.0		
			Niac's Biting		26		2d6+26		30		10.2		306.0			7	2,142.0		7	2,142.0		35		1,897.0		4,039.0			6,181.0			441.5		
			Acid Rain		15		1d4x15		37.5		8.47		317.6			4	1,270.5		3.5	1,111.7		50		911.7								114.0		
			Ice Storm (Cold)	13		1d6+12		15.5		10.2		158.1			14	2,213.4		14	2,213.4		35		1,723.4								57.4		
			Ice Storm (Blunt)	13		2d6		7		10.2		71.4			14	999.6		14	999.6		0		999.6								33.3		
																																			
20 Sorc Earth Savant																																	
			Name			Caster Level	Damage Dice	Average Damage	Muliplier	Multiplied Damage	Ticks	Max Damage	Saves	Saved Damage	Energy Resist	Devil Damage	Devil Damage (2nd)	Devil Damage (3rd)	DPS (max stack)	
			Polar Ray		20		20d6(w)		100		8.47		847.0			1	847.0		1	847.0		50		797.0								199.3		
			B Drag Bolt		26		26d3		52		10.2		530.4			4	2,121.6		4	2,121.6		35		1,981.6								330.3		
			Eladar's Surge		11		2d6+11		18		8.47		152.5			7	1,067.2		7	1,067.2		0		1,067.2		2,134.4			3,201.7			228.7		
			Niac's Biting		20		2d6+20		24		8.47		203.3			7	1,423.0		7	1,423.0		50		1,073.0		2,495.9			3,918.9			279.9		
			Acid Rain		18		1d4x18		45		10.2		459.0			4	1,836.0		3.5	1,606.5		35		1,466.5								183.3		
			Ice Storm (Cold)	10		1d6+10		13.5		8.47		114.3			14	1,600.8		14	1,600.8		50		900.8								30.0		
			Ice Storm (Blunt)	10		2d6		7		8.47		59.3			14	830.1		14	830.1		0		830.1								27.7		
																																			
20 Sorc Air Savant																																	
			Name			Caster Level	Damage Dice	Average Damage	Muliplier	Multiplied Damage	Ticks	Max Damage	Saves	Saved Damage	Energy Resist	Devil Damage	Devil Damage (2nd)	Devil Damage (3rd)	DPS (max stack)	
			Polar Ray		20		20d6(w)		100		8.47		847.0			1	847.0		1	847.0		50		797.0								199.3		
			B Drag Bolt		11		11d3		22		8.47		186.3			4	745.4		4	745.4		50		545.4								90.9		
			Eladar's Surge		26		2d6+26		30		10.2		306.0			7	2,142.0		7	2,142.0		0		2,142.0		4,284.0			6,426.0			459.0		
			Niac's Biting		20		2d6+20		24		8.47		203.3			7	1,423.0		7	1,423.0		50		1,073.0		2,495.9			3,918.9			279.9		
			Acid Rain		11		1d4x11		28.5		8.47		241.4			4	965.6		3.5	844.9		50		644.9								80.6		
			Ice Storm (Cold)	10		1d6+10		13.5		8.47		114.3			14	1,600.8		14	1,600.8		50		900.8								30.0		
			Ice Storm (Blunt)	10		2d6		7		8.47		59.3			14	830.1		14	830.1		0		830.1								27.7

The L5 DoTs don't scale past caster level 20; not on live anyway. I'll probably check on Lammania later.
I already filed (for the 4th time) that Cone of Cold is not scaling past 15d3 + 45...

EDIT:

With 50% elemental boost, not metas and no potency (for BASE * (1.5) * (1.2)), my Tier III Air Savant gets:

Niacs Biting Cold:
37 - 46
Eladar's Electric Surge:
37 - 46

My Tier III Water Savant the same. These spells are both currently unaffected by the Savant PRE line
(well, you can curse and get -15 resist...)

[Morosy]

Tested it some more.

It tics oddly: Once immediately, once 4 seconds in, once at 6 seconds in. So His calcs should be right.

Silly me for believing the description on something

[Shade]

Sounds weak to me.

DoTs: Niacs/Eladars are better.

It's a dot - and a single target bolt one (that can miss) to boot.. You can't compare a slow dot to a instant cast like polar ray. I dont think you have any idea how to play a sorcerer well if you do.

They serve entirely different purposes.
Kill trash - polar ray + acid rain. It's not gona survive long enough for you to use your 6+ second dot.

Kill boss = use dots. and use niacs/eladars, they are stronger.

What acid needed was a nice big instant cast aoe equivalent to DBF/Ottilukes.

This isn't it.

They shoulda just unnerfed burning blood. Since its patially fire, it could be up'd to a nice level without worrying about devil bosses dieing too fast.

[Dark-Star]

Sounds weak to me.

DoTs: Niacs/Eladars are better.

It's a dot - and a single target bolt one (that can miss) to boot.. You can't compare a slow dot to a instant cast like polar ray. I dont think you have any idea how to play a sorcerer well if you do.

They serve entirely different purposes.
Kill trash - polar ray + acid rain. It's not gona survive long enough for you to use your 6+ second dot.

Kill boss = use dots. and use niacs/eladars, they are stronger.

What acid needed was a nice big instant cast aoe equivalent to DBF/Ottilukes.

This isn't it.

They shoulda just unnerfed burning blood. Since its patially fire, it could be up'd to a nice level without worrying about devil bosses dieing too fast.

It's not weak, it's quite a lot of damage. Alternating BDB and Polar Ray alone is more damage than we had before, especially if we are stacking the other DoTs as well.

While another AoE for acid would be nice, we have the very powerful acid rain, and can alternate the SLA acid splash with the spell of the same name.

Burning blood I agree with, but sorcs don't need another stacking DoT. Instead make it stack only if you have, say, the 2nd teir of Earth Savant.

[smatt]

The L5 DoTs don't scale past caster level 20; not on live anyway. I'll probably check on Lammania later.
I already filed (for the 4th time) that Cone of Cold is not scaling past 15d3 + 45...

245th time is the charm....

Of course their bug report tracking system has been improved so maybe it will only take 235 times before they actually know about it, and another 1 1/2 years before they bother to TRY and fix it


As for this spell, well it does seem to be a bit of a bone for the Earth Savant class.....


Now if they would only go back and debug the Savants... And the Archmages, and every other PRE.... That would be cool

[Rodasch]

Sounds weak to me.

DoTs: Niacs/Eladars are better.

It's a dot - and a single target bolt one (that can miss) to boot.. You can't compare a slow dot to a instant cast like polar ray. I dont think you have any idea how to play a sorcerer well if you do.

They serve entirely different purposes.
Kill trash - polar ray + acid rain. It's not gona survive long enough for you to use your 6+ second dot.

Kill boss = use dots. and use niacs/eladars, they are stronger.

What acid needed was a nice big instant cast aoe equivalent to DBF/Ottilukes.

This isn't it.

They shoulda just unnerfed burning blood. Since its patially fire, it could be up'd to a nice level without worrying about devil bosses dieing too fast.

I hate to say it, but you're way off base here, Shade..

Acid Rain is not only less dps than Black Dragon Bolt, It's a level 4 spell, so is blocked by mantle, making it sub-par on bosses and on trash, other than the fact that it's AoE with an "on enter" effect for killzoning. Acid Rain is basically Acid Firewall. For AE trash you'll be using CoD, Wail, and FoD...If you must use damage to kill trash, you might use Acid Rain and Black Dragon Bolt on an Earth Savant, especially since it's damage will far outclass polar ray for less sp expenditure. The initial cast does 5/8's the damage of polar ray, and the next tick passes Polar ray. Anything that lives past that tick would have survived polar ray anyway...and it still has one more tick to go to finish it off while you target something else.

For bosses, this bolt does more dps than a triple stacked eladar's for an earth savant, and nearly as much as a triple stack of niac's. If you're suggesting they should use eladar's instead of this, you're sadly mistaken.

As for comparing this to polar ray, yes, you can indeed compare it, since it's not a "slow" dot, it is in fact a fast dot, completing it's damage cycle during it's own cooldown, meaning you can spam it and not lose any damage, just like polar ray. It's also no-save, can miss, has double range, and an 8th level spell....all comparable traits making it the perfect comparison spell.

While I agree Acid needs a higher level AOE nuke similar to Otilukes, Chain Lightning, or DBF, that doesn't mean they should not also get this spell, which is also sorely needed.

Now they just need to create a Delayed Blast Acid Blast (acid version of DBF) and earth savants will be in a much stronger position for endgame dps.

[HarveyMilk]

but... I want to burn... things...

[Rodasch]

Further Calcs:

Water Savant - fully ice/elec specced using the following spells:
Polar Ray
Otiluke's
Niac's Biting
Eladar's surge
Cone of Cold
Ice Storm
1338 dps combined

Water Savant - split specced in elec/acid secondary with primary ice still using the following spells:
Polar Ray
Black Dragon Bolt
Niac's Biting
Eladar's surge
Acid Rain
Ice storm
1324 dps combined

So yeah, fitting in that acid spell on a water savant would actually lower their dps.

It's also interesting to note that on the devil used in the calcs, Air savants do the most dps when dual element specced using the proper spells. Water savants close second, and earth savants slightly behind that with the addition of BDB. You can see these calcs as well on the second page of the spreadsheet I linked earlier.

[Dark-Star]

Under pretty ideal conditions, one tic of BDB:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Rodasch]

Mr.Cow...question for you:

Where are you getting your multiplier numbers from. By my calcs, the multiplier for max enhancments, a 75% clicky, and greater lore should be 8.8, not 10.2.

Could you be so kind as to show me the math so I can see where we differ?

[Qezuzu]

I think it's a bit more balanced now, and that the earth savant with it's earth grab thing + this + cold as secondary is now a viable alternative, close enough at least to not get laughed out of a group and be able to perform an useful, beneficial role to the group, don't you think? (Just because other melee classes don't have a rogue's DPS output, doesn't mean they're useless/not wanted in a raid besides the main tank after all..)

Earth Savants get laughed out of groups?

In epics, my webs+Earthgrab are enough to CC pretty much any epic. And Earth Savants have the best SLA's.

And against bosses, my DPS is high. I'm not interested in the numbers, but it's pretty high. I rotate Acid Blast, Melfs, Niac's BC, Polar, Acid Rain, and a few others. I haven't been online for awhile.

Seriously excited about BDB.

[Rodasch]

Under pretty ideal conditions, one tic of BDB:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Yeah, helpless and vulnerable to acid combined with savant curse spikes that number up quite a bit. Add on that it's a crit and that is not really representative of the consistent output of that spell.

Thanks for the screenshot though, it's good illustration of the fact that this spell is definitely strong.

[Rodasch]

Earth Savants get laughed out of groups?

In epics, my webs+Earthgrab are enough to CC pretty much any epic. And Earth Savants have the best SLA's.

And against bosses, my DPS is high. I'm not interested in the numbers, but it's pretty high. I rotate Acid Blast, Melfs, Niac's BC, Polar, Acid Rain, and a few others. I haven't been online for awhile.

Seriously excited about BDB.

Your best boss dps once BDB makes it live will be at least 200 dps higher.

[Gratch]

Was playing with BDB yesterday on Lama. Was sort of sad that you can only get BDB to CL 28 as a fully geared/fully spec'd acid caster whereas ice savants can get polar ray up to CL 30.

Mostly just due to the epic abishai 5-set changing from stacking +3 conjuration caster level to nonstacking (diabolist) +3 conjuration DC's. Why did they switch that again?

Edit - added #'s (CL - caster level, ML - max level):
Base Sorc 20:
CL: 20 ML: 25 (polar ray and BDB)

Savant 3: (+6/+3)
CL: 26 ML: 28

Epic Staff of Arcane Power (Arcane Augmentation 9 +2 CL):
CL: 28 ML: 28

Savant Tod Set Tier 3 (+2 ML):
CL: 28 ML: 30

Epic Abishai 5-set (Stacking Evocation CL +3, Nonstacking Conjuration DC +3)
BDB: CL: 28 ML:30
Polar Ray: CL:31 ML: 30

Lame change on the Abs set... especially now that there's a spell that could use the bump.