Bravery bonus and F2P/Premium

[Mercules]

And I really don't understand what's greedy about asking to be able to purchase something?

You need to finish that comment.

And I really don't understand what's greedy about asking to be able to purchase something that has up until this point been the special domain of a payment plan I decided to opt out of?

You are also forgetting you can purchase them right now, you just are not willing to pay the price it would require. (I wouldn't be either but you still have the option).

[Mercules]

BZZZZZZZZZT!
False.
When we made that decision we did so knowing all of the features.
Two years later those features have changed. So your statement is completely invalid.
When VIPs got the ability to open quests on elite I was happy for them because it didn't affect me.
Now that there is a direct link to that ability and the rate at which XP is gained, I am no longer happy.
Offering a Hard Unlock in the store is a happy medium as far as I'm concerned.
And that has nothing to do with wanting what the VIPs have without the cons. The cons for us are that we have to purchase it. And even if it becomes available it does not encroach on the VIPs' ability to open elite. I'm not asking for what you have. I'm asking for the happy medium so that we aren't riding on the back of the bus and drinking from separate fountains.

You are not happy because you convinced yourself it would never be worth it to pay more for VIP ignoring the fact that if there was not "some" perk no reasonable person would choose that plan in the long run. The XP lockout was not intentional and it looks like they will probably come up with some "other" solution. You still don't -need- Elite open, even with the XP boost. It's 10%.

[Mercules]

I disagree on all points, but if premium and VIP is not "balanced" then it's the pricing that should change. Doing anything else will mean lost profit for turbine.
It's incredibly simple.

Really? So you want to pay more for your content... oh wait... that you already paid for. Should subscriptions become less?

[Razcar]

I'm premium and I don't feel entitled to anything. I only feel that it's bad for Turbines buissness to deny a demanded service/product.
It doesn't make any sense at all.

And I really don't understand what's greedy about asking to be able to purchase something?

There's a spectrum of Premium-player opinion's here - asking to get the only useful VIP benefit without paying for it is greedy. Not asking to pay for it.

But if this does get in the Shop, or worse, gets available to any $5 Premium TR willy-nilly it's the last nail in the coffin for the VIP model. For sure. People that have wanted this lonely but useful VIP-perk has paid for their subs for quite a while now, and would then just have paid more for nothing. There is no other really useful advantage to being VIP, and the back-bending reasons Premiums are trying to conjure up here for saying VIP has other reasons for existence are just ridiculous.

VIPs can then just stop their subs and get on the Premium gravy train, but two years late, and with very little to show for it. I know you Premiums don't care, but that's what will happen.

This should be kept VIP, and VIPs should get many more benefits, or Turbine should just get rid of the VIP model all together. And that is a much more valid discussion in my opinion - if we should have VIP at all - not if Premiums should get the last useful aspect of paying a monthly subscription month in and month out.

[Chai]

BZZZZZZZZZT!
False.
When we made that decision we did so knowing all of the features.
Two years later those features have changed. So your statement is completely invalid.
When VIPs got the ability to open quests on elite I was happy for them because it didn't affect me.
Now that there is a direct link to that ability and the rate at which XP is gained, I am no longer happy.
Offering a Hard Unlock in the store is a happy medium as far as I'm concerned.
And that has nothing to do with wanting what the VIPs have without the cons. The cons for us are that we have to purchase it. And even if it becomes available it does not encroach on the VIPs' ability to open elite. I'm not asking for what you have. I'm asking for the happy medium so that we aren't riding on the back of the bus and drinking from separate fountains.

LOL.

You chose tier 2 in a 3 tier level plan and are calling it back of the bus, and are now making a grab at tier 1 benefits. You knew full well what the stipulations were when making the choice, as did I when I made mine. Please stop trying to devalue VIP by suggesting that the last remaining good benefit also be given to premium. Saying it doesnt encroach on VIP is rediculous. Why should VIP be obligated to pay more regularly if they dont get more, as advertised.

Want VIP benefits? Go VIP. Accept the pros and the cons together.

[Chai]

You need to finish that comment.

And I really don't understand what's greedy about asking to be able to purchase something that has up until this point been the special domain of a payment plan I decided to opt out of?

You are also forgetting you can purchase them right now, you just are not willing to pay the price it would require. (I wouldn't be either but you still have the option).

Bingo.

[Razcar]

BZZZZZZZZZT!
False.
When we made that decision we did so knowing all of the features.
Two years later those features have changed. So your statement is completely invalid.

No, you just didn't bother to read.

"What is a DDO VIP?
This newly optional subscription program also allows its gamers to enjoy a number of other exclusive benefits, such as a monthly grant of Turbine Points, priority access to servers, the ability to play all classes and races, additional character slots, a shared bank slot, and much more."

Welcome to "much more" buddy. Caveat emptor.

[Aaxeyu]

No, you just didn't bother to read.

"What is a DDO VIP?
This newly optional subscription program also allows its gamers to enjoy a number of other exclusive benefits, such as a monthly grant of Turbine Points, priority access to servers, the ability to play all classes and races, additional character slots, a shared bank slot, and much more."

Welcome to "much more" buddy. Caveat emptor.

Maybe your interpentation of the VIP ad is correct, it doesn't change the fact that Turbine is better off with no VIP exclusive features.

[Razcar]

Maybe your interpentation of the VIP ad is correct, it doesn't change the fact that Turbine is better off with no VIP exclusive features.

Sure, but then we should also get rid of VIP - or as you said before - change the pricing (and the name I suppose). Call it Premium Subscription, make it $5 a month, get rid of the 500 free TP. I'm OK with that.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Care to add up our purchases? I think you will see I have put more money into this game than yourself.

I don't just pay $9.99 a month but I also purchase extra bank slots for the majority of my 21 characters. Speaking of which have you unlocked 11 character slots above and beyond your free ones? The monk in my signature has 2 different armors with appearance kits applied and that is just one character I have many more with appearance kits. Most of my UMD characters have Bunny Hats and I've bought other hats for other characters just for fun. I've purchased the full shared bank slot ammount, countless SP potions, XP potions, TR, LR, and frequent convenience items like Teleportation wands. I purchased Favored Soul when it first came out, since I had re-rolled my highest favor character just before and didn't want to grind all the way up. I purchased 32 point build so I could have it on alternate servers.

While some of this has come from the points I gain each month I would say most of that gets spent on consumable items and the real meat and potato items come from TPs I have purchased.

Add that into subscription costs since the game started...

Now, I am not even overboard on my purchases. A close friend of mine has been known to drop $50 on TPs just because. He is VIP.


Premium players didn't save DDO. F2P didn't save DDO. Micro-transactions saved DDO and VIP players are part of that Micro-transaction process in addition to their monthly fees.

Look, you seem to be able to -almost- put together an actual sentence, so I suppose you might be intelligent enough to get it. I spend a ton in micro-transactions and I pay a fee to get something you don't. Want what I have? Pay the same.

LOL and if a premium where to purchase all that you do including those options that being vip grant them how much do you think it would cost? you seem like a smart fellow, you can read and obviously ignore the obvious

[Edwinge]

Easier than not having to pay at all until they are ready? No.

A recurring payments fits into a budget better than having to keep buying content when you get to it or it comes out. Sure, you can budget one point purchase a month or something, but that's more hassle and if you are paying monthly, why not sub?

No premium player needs to pay larger outputs of cash. They can pay as they go, and choose when to, and how much.

Most gamers would need to spend a lot more in the first couple of months of being premium than they would as a vip if they play regularly and want to access very much of the content. Sure, you don't have to pay out a lot at a time, but you'd be making more frequent payments.

Which they can do with premium if they choose by buying the features they want and not worrying about the stuff they dont want.

Until a new update goes live. Oh, and the update after that. Oh yeah, there's another update, gotta visit the store again. Entering credit card info once and forgetting about it is certainly less of a hassle.

This is easier to do for F2P or premium. Theres no reason to sub up to VIP knowing you are a limited time customer.

See my response to the second item. If I'm a gamer and only intend to play for a few months, it'd be a lot cheaper to go vip then to buy everything. Yeah, you don't have to buy everything but why limit yourself? May as well spend the same amount and have access to everything while you're there.

And I have yet to hear one. Ironic.

If premium offered everything that VIP gets, what tempts anyone to go VIP?

The right answer of course, is nothing.

Just because you haven't heard a reason why you would want to remain vip if premium had access to everything a vip does doesn't mean that there aren't reasons other people would want to. And that's what you asked in the first place. You asked about anyone, not specifically for reasons why you would. Shoot, there are probably people that would still stay vip just for the early access to new quests.

[BOgre]

There is no other really useful advantage to being VIP
saying VIP has other reasons for existence are just ridiculous.

So, in your view, the ONLY reason you're paying $10/month is to have elite unlock? You're being cheated, my friend.


Turbine should just get rid of the VIP model all together.

Sure, but then we should also get rid of VIP - or as you said before - change the pricing (and the name I suppose). Call it Premium Subscription, make it $5 a month, get rid of the 500 free TP. I'm OK with that.

Now you're talking sense.

Despite the line of marketing propaganda that many VIPs have swallowed regarding 'many other benefits' the key difference between the pricing models is NOT paying a regular monthly fee in order to feel Very Important. The key difference IS the difference between paying larger lump sums as needed, versus paying a small amount regularly. VIPs were hoodwinked into thinking their 'rental' plan was 'the best' with marketing falderol that appealed to their elitist nature, while Premiums did the math and realized that Prem was a much better deal.
We don't feel slighted or grudging or hard done by. We're asking for a convenient and equitable price point for a core game mechanic.

@Chai: You claim that this thread is about VIP vs Prem, but it's the VIPs that have made it so. It's the VIPs that are against selling a useful product at a fair price because of their perceived self importance and possesiveness over this 'Perk' that was never intended to be a perk in the first place. Further, you claim we've not made any suggestions about what to do about the problem, which only shows that you've read only the parts of this thread that fit your argument. Look closer. There are plenty of suggestions.

[BOgre]

This is easier to do for F2P or premium. Theres no reason to sub up to VIP knowing you are a limited time customer.

Wow, how COMPLETELY backwards that statement is. If I was a short term player, just testing things out, I'd pay the $15 to get access to the whole game for a month (or $30 for 3 months). By buying a $50 pack and spending it on adventure packs, I've made an investment in the game and I'm in for the long haul, knowing that to get more I'll have to spend at least another $50 a few months down the road.

If you chose the more expensive route for the long haul by subbing, knowing that breaking your sub loses you your features and ALL the content, then you chose poorly, you trapped yourself, and invested a bunch of money for nothing.

EDIT: This has turned into more of a flame war than a productive discussion i think... I won't apologize for stating my opinion, but I will say that I think I should probably let it drop at this point. If I came across as harsh Chai, I do apologize for that... my frustration isn't really directed at you personally. I think it may be directed at Turbine for letting this issue go unaddressed for so long, or maybe it's directed at capitalist democracy and the free market in general, that bred this problem in the first place.... Or maybe I just spent too many hours in traffic just now and need to take a chill pill....

[gloopygloop]

And I have yet to hear one. Ironic.

The fact that those reasons don't happen to match up with YOUR needs doesn't mean that

There are a lot of people who can come up with $10 or $15 of "mad money" each month who can't come up with $100 or $150 in one shot. VIP lets those people play the entire game for as long as they want to.

Anyone who is concerned that they will be banned eventually will be better off going VIP than going Premium because they get to enjoy the entire game for the limited time that they'll get to play on that account without having to spend a big chunk of money that will just get tossed in the trash when they get their ban.

Anyone who can only play seasonally can pick up a 3 month subscription for just $30 and enjoy the entire game for $30 and then pay just another $30 when their summer vacation rolls around again next year.

Anyone who enjoys DDO as F2P and thinks that they might enjoy playing the entire game, but isn't sure if the end game will be as fun as Korthos Island and the Harbor can buy a 1 month sub and try the entire game. They only risk $15 compared to the $50 or more that a Premium player would have to pay to try out just a part of the game.

There are many, many reasons for people to choose a VIP subscription instead of Premium - even if a Premium player were able to purchase every single VIP "perk" that exists. Those reasons might not be reasons for YOU to go VIP instead of Premium, but that doesn't mean those reasons (and many other reasons) aren't valid for other people.

If premium offered everything that VIP gets, what tempts anyone to go VIP?

The right answer of course, is nothing.

There is obviously nothing that would tempt CHAI to VIP in that circumstance. Not everyone in the world is CHAI, however. Other people can (and often do) have different perspectives, different needs and different priorities than you have. And that's not a bad thing.

[Mercules]

VIPs were hoodwinked into thinking their 'rental' plan was 'the best' with marketing falderol that appealed to their elitist nature, while Premiums did the math and realized that Prem was a much better deal.

Well, if it is a "much better deal" why are you whining about not getting something? You got the deal which typically means you didn't get something else or had some restriction on it.

The restriction is not coming up with lump sums of money compared to my subscription because to get the $9.99 I had to pay for 6 months at a time, which is more than an economical $50 TP pack.

We were not hoodwinked because VIP has always had a couple incentives with it that just couldn't be gained any other way. One of which you specifically want and I don't believe it is because of and XP system that very much looks like it will never be implemented as is. So if you do get our incentive, then indeed, we were hoodwinked.

I think we can both understand that our incentive thus has value and that added value is why VIP are, by your very own statement, paying more.

If you chose the more expensive route for the long haul by subbing, knowing that breaking your sub loses you your features and ALL the content, then you chose poorly, you trapped yourself, and invested a bunch of money for nothing.

Um, incorrect, we did it in part for the very feature YOU want but have decide to forgo because of the purchase option you chose. Granting those who have not Subscribed a feature that is reserved for subscribers would in fact make your statement true. I think that might be why VIP members are defending keeping their feature exclusive. Thank you for understanding our side and agreeing that you do not deserve said feature as it would figuratively screw anyone who is VIP. You chose a plan that did not include said feature, that doesn't make MY choice poor when said feature becomes better than it was, it makes your choice poor. Stop trying to punish me for your choices.

Go look at the plans. It clearly states that opening quests on Elite is a feature of VIP.

There are a lot of people who can come up with $10 or $15 of "mad money" each month who can't come up with $100 or $150 in one shot. VIP lets those people play the entire game for as long as they want to.

This is a fallacy.
1. There is no need to come up with $100 dollars in one shot to be a premium member. The Devs concept of the Premium account is, "Pay as you go" which means it is perfect for those with "Mad Money". They can play without having to worry about their account being shut off and buy content as they need it in small chunks. It will always be there waiting for them.
2. For VIP to get the $9.99 a month we had to pay 6 months at a time. The new 3 month option has changed that. Otherwise it was $14.99 a month. Those who can not afford a lump sum can become a Premium member for $7.99. That is ALL you need to invest to be premium, ever.

Anyone who is concerned that they will be banned eventually will be better off going VIP than going Premium because they get to enjoy the entire game for the limited time that they'll get to play on that account without having to spend a big chunk of money that will just get tossed in the trash when they get their ban.

Anyone who believes they are going to be banned from a game should maybe not bother logging into said game. If they do they should go F2P as VIP would mean throwing away money, just like Premium.

Anyone who can only play seasonally can pick up a 3 month subscription for just $30 and enjoy the entire game for $30 and then pay just another $30 when their summer vacation rolls around again next year.

Even better, they can just buy TPs when a sale rolls around and come seasonal play time play and not worry about having to cancel or subscribe. Even better, if they get a holiday week off work/school the can play even without a subscription and have all their toys. So yet another false reason where it would be better to be Premium.

Anyone who enjoys DDO as F2P and thinks that they might enjoy playing the entire game, but isn't sure if the end game will be as fun as Korthos Island and the Harbor can buy a 1 month sub and try the entire game. They only risk $15 compared to the $50 or more that a Premium player would have to pay to try out just a part of the game.

Assuming a brand new unknowledgable player could get to the end game in 1 month. Alternately they could do all the F2P content first, spending nothing, save up TP to buy guest passes to the higher content and see if they like it, again spending nothing. Why would they sign up for VIP and pay?

There are many, many reasons for people to choose a VIP subscription instead of Premium - even if a Premium player were able to purchase every single VIP "perk" that exists. Those reasons might not be reasons for YOU to go VIP instead of Premium, but that doesn't mean those reasons (and many other reasons) aren't valid for other people.

No, those reasons might not be reasons any intelligent person would get a VIP account. Really it is for the few benefits that YOU DON'T GET as a premium player.



You really haven't given a reason for VIP that isn't better served by going F2P or Premium. Just because you ponied up money for everything in the first month doesn't mean that Premium services work that way. You could literally pay $50 dollars for 5000-6000 points, unlock HOrcs, play through the F2P till ready to do Delera's then unlock that and the Desert. That will get you easily to 13 and you have spent just over half your TPs. If you went VIP you have 4 months to get that far and if you are unfamiliar, unguilded, and pugging it could easily take you longer.

Most people delete their first character about level 5 and now knowing better what they need roll up a better character. Why pay for those first couple learning weeks?

Being fair. I did realize, while writing this, that 1 month after doing all the F2P stuff might be good enough to try out the mid ranged quests and see which pack you want to buy.

So then I have to ask what is the incentive to have a LONG TERM VIP account? The perks. Many of us are long term players who get scoffed at because "I'm premium and I get everything you get and I don't have to pay for it anymore. Sucker." except you just realized you don't get everything I do so now you want it. I'm not exactly sympathetic after a year of being told how you have everything I do and I'm stupid.

[muny21]

I keep seeing VIPs saying the only reason to go VIP is for the elite unlock and without it they would drop the sub. I find that so hard to believe because there were VIPs before elite unlock existed and there would still be VIPs if they sold it to premiums that earn that perk through a set amount of purchases.

I think premiums that purchase all packs should be allowed to open all difficulties and only premiums that purchase all packs. If someone "owns" all the quests what is the harm in allowing them to run them on any difficulty they choose?

That would give premium members that spend a lot of money a perk as well as VIPs.

Why are VIPs so against someone that spends just as much or even more than them gaining a perk as well? Why is your money worth more?

This one little perk would not devalue your VIP status as you will still have early access to new content, all races and classes, more character slots, and shared bank slots. I know you all take that stuff for granted because you do not realize just how much it costs premium members to purchase. It is expensive even with the sales.

I do agree that f2p or the only buying small point pack to become premium should never receive perks.

[Truga]

Because you want to experience the whole game but you don't want to make a huge investment in it?

Saying that there is no reason to go VIP if there are no exclusive perks is madness.

This is a hilarious statement. I've played DDO on $20 for almost half a year as a premium user, by only buying packs that I needed. Saying VIP gets you through cheaper is a blatant lie.

There's no requirement anywhere, to buy the whole game right off the bat, like some people here are advertising.

Edit: Oh and, I'm a premium and the only reason for me to ever go VIP is the elite unlock. I fully intend to sub for a few months now and then when I'll be doing TRs. If they remove that, there's no reason for me to go VIP ever.

[Aaxeyu]

This is a hilarious statement. I've played DDO on $20 for almost half a year as a premium user, by only buying packs that I needed. Saying VIP gets you through cheaper is a blatant lie.

There's no requirement anywhere, to buy the whole game right off the bat, like some people here are advertising.

No, the hilarity is in your blatant ignorance.
VIP is cheaper if you only play a couple of months. Alot cheaper. Unless ofcourse you want to severely limit the game content or spend alot of time doing the most boring thing in DDO (farm TP).

It's not really about buying the whole game right off the bat, it's about buying more of the game as you go through it. The price is exactly the same.
2 months is plenty of time to play through the entire game.

You people are really understimating VIP.

Edit: Oh and, I'm a premium and the only reason for me to ever go VIP is the elite unlock. I fully intend to sub for a few months now and then when I'll be doing TRs. If they remove that, there's no reason for me to go VIP ever.

I feel the same way. The result of their bait and switch tactic.

[Razcar]

This is all Turbine's marketing team's fault. They failed in balancing their payment plan options. This were, in my opinion, the two main mistakes:

1. They made Premium too economically advantageous compared to VIP, causing the majority of cost-conscious players to switch to it
2. They failed in driving through the "VIP:ness" of the VIP-plan through actually useful advantages. The majority of the VIP-only perks are in effect pointless. This caused Premium players not to understand the hierarchy of the payment plans, or at least easily ignore it when deciding on a plan

Now they are trying to get back some subscription players by slashing the prices (by one third none the less). That's not the way to do it, the players that are cost-conscious have been Premium for a long time and will not switch now.

What they instead should do is to make VIP more advantageous in game terms, and make it clear that it is a higher cost option, but for those who want the top-of-the-line product. Giving Hard and Elite opening wasn't enough, and this new more convenient way to get a XP bonus is not enough either.

They should make VIP truly "VIP". Put back the price to $15. And make it BETTER. Or instead just abandon this half-baked hierarchy we have now and make both Premium and VIP the same with the perks, and slash VIP prices by half.

Because the present situation is a confused mess, as is clearly evident here.

[BOgre]

This is all Turbine's marketing team's fault. They failed in balancing their payment plan options. This were, in my opinion, the two main mistakes:

1. They made Premium too economically advantageous compared to VIP, causing the majority of cost-conscious players to switch to it
2. They failed in driving through the "VIP:ness" of the VIP-plan through actually useful advantages. The majority of the VIP-only perks are in effect pointless. This caused Premium players not to understand the hierarchy of the payment plans, or at least easily ignore it when deciding on a plan

Now they are trying to get back some subscription players by slashing the prices (by one third none the less). That's not the way to do it, the players that are cost-conscious have been Premium for a long time and will not switch now.

What they instead should do is to make VIP more advantageous in game terms, and make it clear that it is a higher cost option, but for those who want the top-of-the-line product. Giving Hard and Elite opening wasn't enough, and this new more convenient way to get a XP bonus is not enough either.

They should make VIP truly "VIP". Put back the price to $15. And make it BETTER. Or instead just abandon this half-baked hierarchy we have now and make both Premium and VIP the same with the perks, and slash VIP prices by half.

Because the present situation is a confused mess, as is clearly evident here.

This is EXACTLY where MMO's fail. Make the game 'better' if you 'pay more'. That's is the path to the dark side. Once you begin down this path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Pay to Win is bad.

The only reason _I_ would ever subscribe, is if I were guaranteed new content twice per year, and if that content was cheaper for subscribers than for pay as you go. At $120 dollars per year, or $60 per new adventure, I'd say that was fair, and on par with buying console game disks. Anything other than that is fluff, and isn't worth my entertainment dollar. Including elite unlock. If it were reasonably priced, account wide, or at a minimum server wide, then I'd consider it, but it's hardly a priority. And now I've officially forgotten what this thread was about....