Bravery bonus and F2P/Premium

[Bilger]

Vip asked for something more to make VIP worth it.

They wheren't given anything new just something that makes being VIP a lil better than being premium.

Which is how it should be.

As a premium you are buying what you want to play so if you want to play elite geuss what ya have to buy it.

Where as a VIP you get it as a boon for paying that monthly fee and with now getting a boost (which is easy if really want to to get for a premium) with free unlock gives a small boost in xp gain

Seriously, get an elite opener, vip friend, store opener, or find groups running elite if that boost is that major to you.

It's a sm differance between VIP and premium but that is the differance as premiums like to say ya pay for content and VIP rents all of it. So pay for elite opening and you will be fine.

[thegreatneil]

A per unlock for elite should never be available.
I'm not even sure if hard should be either.
Seems way to easy to abuse. (Elite mostly)

[BOgre]

It's a sm differance between VIP and premium but that is the differance as premiums like to say ya pay for content and VIP rents all of it. So pay for elite opening and you will be fine.

hehe, right. With somewhere in the neighborhood of 270 quests in the game, and the current elite opener in the store being a one shot, I think spending $250 for an option that is NOT permanent and NOT account wide is hardly 'Fine', and not remotely equitable.

[BOgre]

Is my position that difficult to understand?

Well, then I guess I misunderstood you. At one point on page one or two it sounded like you understood that segregating core mechanics was bad, and that you were proposing an unlock that was expensive but fair. My mistake.

[Bilger]

hehe, right. With somewhere in the neighborhood of 270 quests in the game, and the current elite opener in the store being a one shot, I think spending $250 dollars for an option that is NOT permanent and NOT account wide is hardly 'Fine', and not remotely equitable.

There are multiple ways to open up elite as stated in original post which you left out.

Premium buys(buys is key word if haven't bought don't get) everything to keep per say.

Like alot have said VIP rents and gets everything elite openings and all.

It's not hard to understand that if a premium player wants it he has to pay for it through grinding, money...........

It's the price you pay for being premium.

Seriously don't understand why now premium players are crying that VIP gets a lil more and they have to pay for it when that's exactly what the differance is between premium and VIP.

It's just like all the premium where saying before in a post where talking about VIP not being worth it premium pay to own and vip rent it's not a difficult concept.

This was not all directed at you ogre it's directed at all premium who are not liking vip getting something they aren't when they haven't paid for it to own it yet.

[Mercules]

hehe, right. With somewhere in the neighborhood of 270 quests in the game, and the current elite opener in the store being a one shot, I think spending $250 for an option that is NOT permanent and NOT account wide is hardly 'Fine', and not remotely equitable.

Sure it is. Does it stop you from playing? No. Does it stop you from leveling? No. Does it make you level slightly slower than someone who has a VIP Account? Yes. It's very equitable.

To quote from the link posted earlier:

Under the new model, a significant portion of subscription gamers actually engage in microtransaction purchases as well, pushing their lifetime expected revenue over 175% of the subscription-only baseline. (Exact numbers weren’t revealed, but Paiz did say that current subscriber counts are double what they were under the old model). Those who only engage in microtransaction purchases (and do not take advantage of the subscription offer) came in at about 70% of subscriber-only revenues.

So using a ficticious baseline of $100 over the lifetime for Subscription only, the Subscription gamers(VIP) spend $175 dollars and Premium/F2P pay $70 on average. Whom should they provide with an incentive?

[BOgre]

premium who are not liking vip getting something they aren't when they haven't paid for it to own it yet.

I don't think that's what we're complaining about (this time ), I think what we have an issue with is that the gap between payment options is widening, and that it's now affecting gameplay. That verges on Pay2Win, which we can all agree is not a good thing in the world of MMOs.

[gloopygloop]

My belief and support for why it might be different is that Turbine recognizes that VIP players are a steady source of income with micro-bursts of income while Premium are one shot micro-burst income and thus VIP need an incentive to stay VIP.

That's not quite how it works, though.

VIP players are a steady (small) source of income while they remain subscribers with micro-bursts of income when they decide that they need to buy a consumeable that costs more than they have left of their 500 points per month.

Premium players are a one time (larger) source of income PLUS a greater number of micro-bursts of income each time they decide that they want to buy a consumeable because they don't get those free 500 points per month AND additional revenue each time Turbine releases a new class/race/adventure pack/account option (like Elite Unlock account option would be).

[Aaxeyu]

I might have missed it, but your really haven't explained why you think that VIP and Premium should be the same except for the fact that one pays per month and one only buys what they desire but unlocks it "permanently". What support do you have for this argument that the different account types should be the same excluding how they choose to pay? Turbine doesn't seem to be of this belief and never has been.

I have, but I can do it again.
It's simply because it's bad for buissness to exclude a group from certain services/products.
By not excluding they can make more money.

If they want to give incentive to become VIP they should do it via pricing, not by exclusive features.

You also seem to be overestimating the value of the "steady" income of VIP sub money.
VIPs can easily cancel the sub, and getting a large lump sum is alot better than getting small sums periodicly over time.

[Hokiewa]

I don't think that's what we're complaining about (this time ), I think what we have an issue with is that the gap between payment options is widening, and that it's now affecting gameplay. That verges on Pay2Win, which we can all agree is not a good thing in the world of MMOs.

It is absolutely not even close to "Pay to Win". The mechanic exists in game for Prem to obtain the streak, for free. A tiny bit of effort is involved. I suppose somebody that solo plays, never has any contact with anybody in the game, never types or is incapable of typing/asking for an unlock, then yes it maybe it is irkesome to you. I doubt those are the majority of prem players.

**Edited in**

I keep seeing the phrase "excluded". Nonexistent.

[Aaxeyu]

Seriously don't understand why now premium players are crying that VIP gets a lil more and they have to pay for it when that's exactly what the differance is between premium and VIP.

That's not really the case.
The "premium side" of the argument are saying that we should be able to buy everything that VIP gets.
We are also saying that the current way to unlock elite costs too much (not that it should be free).

[gloopygloop]

So using a ficticious baseline of $100 over the lifetime for Subscription only, the Subscription gamers(VIP) spend $175 dollars and Premium/F2P pay $70 on average. Whom should they provide with an incentive?

Or we could use a ficticious baseline of $100 over the lifetime for Subscription only, the Subscription gamers(VIP) spend $175 dollars and Premium/F2P pay $200 on average. Whom should they provide with an incentive?

If you're going to just make numbers up, then everyone else might as well do so too.

[Mercules]

That's not quite how it works, though.

VIP players are a steady (small) source of income while they remain subscribers with micro-bursts of income when they decide that they need to buy a consumeable that costs more than they have left of their 500 points per month.

Premium players are a one time (larger) source of income PLUS a greater number of micro-bursts of income each time they decide that they want to buy a consumeable because they don't get those free 500 points per month AND additional revenue each time Turbine releases a new class/race/adventure pack/account option (like Elite Unlock account option would be).

What I quoted above doesn't seem to support your claim. In fact it looks like subscribers(VIP) are a larger source of income.

[Aaxeyu]

It is absolutely not even close to "Pay to Win". The mechanic exists in game for Prem to obtain the streak, for free. A tiny bit of effort is involved. I suppose somebody that solo plays, never has any contact with anybody in the game, never types or is incapable of typing/asking for an unlock, then yes it maybe it is irkesome to you. I doubt those are the majority of prem players.

**Edited in**

I keep seeing the phrase "excluded". Nonexistent.

Just because you are able to get around a problem doesn't mean that the problem isn't there.

[Lobster5]

Aaxeyu what would you consider a "fair" price for this permanent unlock via the store?

[Hokiewa]

Just because you are able to get around a problem doesn't mean that the problem isn't there.

Like it or not, grouping is a game mechanic.

Just because you refuse to do it, doesn't invalidate what the designers are trying to accomplish here.

[BOgre]

It is absolutely not even close to "Pay to Win". The mechanic exists in game for Prem to obtain the streak, for free. A tiny bit of effort is involved. I suppose somebody that solo plays, never has any contact with anybody in the game, never types or is incapable of typing/asking for an unlock, then yes it maybe it is irkesome to you. I doubt those are the majority of prem players.

**Edited in**

I keep seeing the phrase "excluded". Nonexistent.

wow, you consistently feel the need to bash my posts and twist my meaning. Did I wrong you in a past life or something? And why the vitriol ('never types, is incapable of typing')? I told myself earlier on that I'd not respond to your bashing me, but geez, enough already. Stick to the argument, and quit telling me to post LFMs for elite openers. We've already established that that isn't the issue.

[Mercules]

Or we could use a ficticious baseline of $100 over the lifetime for Subscription only, the Subscription gamers(VIP) spend $175 dollars and Premium/F2P pay $200 on average. Whom should they provide with an incentive?

If you're going to just make numbers up, then everyone else might as well do so too.

I didn't make them up.

Per an interview with Paiz...

Those who only engage in microtransaction purchases (and do not take advantage of the subscription offer) came in at about 70% of subscriber-only revenues.

So they make 30% less off non-VIP than VIP? That is what that says to me.

[Aaxeyu]

Like it or not, grouping is a game mechanic.

Just because you refuse to do it, doesn't invalidate what the designers are trying to accomplish here.

Why is it better to force people to find an opener instead of giving them the option to open themelsves (not for free)?

[gloopygloop]

What I quoted above doesn't seem to support your claim. In fact it looks like subscribers(VIP) are a larger source of income.

Do you have any references that actually provide evidence for that or is that something that you just believe in?